Yeah, between FCB and Extra Arcana Feat and Pages of Spell Knowledge and Mnemonic Vestment, Sorcs by now have alot resources boosting Spells Known... That gives them alot more flexibility than Arcanists when caught off-guard. Quick Study still leaves a Full Round action (and likely a Move Action to retrieve spellbook unless using Witch Arcanist Archetype, and that spellbook is a hassle/weakness until also put away) so doesn't really negate that factor. I guess Arcane Blood Arcanists might take Bonded Item to get around that, but that's just one spell casting.
I would say that over-all I feel like Sage Sorcerors (Wild Blooded) feel superseded by Arcanists, I don't feel like there is any reason to play them when Arcanists overlap so much, and of course get many new tricks. Speaking of which, if we have Exploiter Wizards, why no option for Sorcerors to grab Exploits as well? (or is there one, and my splat-fu is weak?)
You guys have given me some good reasons why the Sorcerer is still a mechanically viable choice compared to the Arcanist. My curiosity is sated! You have my thanks :)
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Yeah, between FCB and Extra Arcana Feat and Pages of Spell Knowledge and Mnemonic Vestment, Sorcs by now have alot resources boosting Spells Known... That gives them alot more flexibility than Arcanists when caught off-guard. Quick Study still leaves a Full Round action (and likely a Move Action to retrieve spellbook unless using Witch Arcanist Archetype, and that spellbook is a hassle/weakness until also put away) so doesn't really negate that factor. I guess Arcane Blood Arcanists might take Bonded Item to get around that, but that's just one spell casting.
Don't most of those things also work for Arcanists?
How does the Extra Arcana feat apply to sorcerers?
He meant Expanded Arcana. Pag s of Spell Knowledge don't work for Arcanists, they have Spell Lattices (which other spontaneous casters can also use).
Sorry, but being treated as a 1st-level sorcerer only for the 1st-level bloodline power is not nearly the same thing, even if you can expend resources for temporary boosts.
The blood arcanist archetype trades your 1st, 3rd, 9th and 15th level exploits and your capstone for a full bloodline, as in all the powers and the arcana. You have to wait until 5th level to get your exploits, but once you do you're basically a better sorcerer. (with the exception of the new bloodline mutations, which look like they might be enough to make sorcerers the best option in the game for blasting, arcanist is still better at everything else.)
Sorry, but being treated as a 1st-level sorcerer only for the 1st-level bloodline power is not nearly the same thing, even if you can expend resources for temporary boosts.The blood arcanist archetype trades your 1st, 3rd, 9th and 15th level exploits and your capstone for a full bloodline, as in all the powers and the arcana. You have to wait until 5th level to get your exploits, but once you do you're basically a better sorcerer. (with the exception of the new bloodline mutations, which look like they might be enough to make sorcerers the best option in the game for blasting, arcanist is still better at everything else.)
Except for, you know, staying up late, unlike the upstart sorcerer who can party practically all night long.
I will grant you the additional versatility though.
He meant Expanded Arcana. Pages of Spell Knowledge don't work for Arcanists, they have Spell Lattices (which other spontaneous casters can also use).
Yes, Spell Lattices are largely equivalent to Pages of Spell Knowledge, just heavier..
But the rest of that list does synergize to bring Sorcerors alot more in the moment flexibility. (esp. for Humans/etc with FCB)Mnemonic Vest is great for cheaply leveraging scrolls/spellbooks (heck, just offer to carry spellbook of the party's wizard/magus), and Rings of Spell Knowledge are great, between their swappability and ad-hoc nature merely requiring witnessing spell use.
The strongest Archetype for Sorcerors is Tattooed Sorceror, which gives them extra pseudo-prepared "slots" (SLAs/Tattoos), which with a little planning can boost effective spells known, since they only need to correspond to your spells known at the time the SLA is chosen (which can be levels previous) or Tattoo is created (daily or until Tattoo is used), synergizing with stuff like Mnemonic Vestment (fine for down-time SLA creation) or Ring of Spell Knowledge (better for daily Tattoos) to temporarily gain access.
Also, Eldritch Heritage:Arcane which most all Sorcerors trivially qualify for the entire chain of... The mid-level Power grants more Spells Known. Take Bonded Item and get that Ring of Spell Knowledge for half price. I believe Arcane Blood Arcanist were mentioned a few posts back, but AFAIK they get nothing out of extra spells known BL ability.
"Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster instead affect the number of spells an arcanist can prepare."
Hm... But does that let them use Mnemonic Vestment / Pages of Spell Knowledge, which aren't granting spells known per se, just letting you cast "as if you knew the spell". That does let alot of stuff work with them, I had missed that part... That does make me feel more strongly that Sorcerors need limited access to Arcanist or even Witch tricks, if Arcanists are already using Sorceror Feats etc.
BTW, I wonder about the Spontaneous Ley Line Witch, whose Familiar still uses Witch Familiar rules and thus should work like a spellbook... If they can load spells into it, and that would work with Mnemonic Vestment / Bonded Item "casting from spellbook" functionality?
BTW, I wonder about the Spontaneous Ley Line Witch, whose Familiar still uses Witch Familiar rules and thus should work like a spellbook... If they can load spells into it, and that would work with Mnemonic Vestment / Bonded Item "casting from spellbook" functionality?
The Conduit Surge ability replaces the familiar, they don't get one.
ah, i was thinking/remembering that the ley lines functioned as/counted as the familiar they were replacing, but it's worded in more specific way just re: adding patron spells.
"Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster instead affect the number of spells an arcanist can prepare."
Just following up on this because the thread popped up during search on topic...
IMHO it is pretty clear that line DOES NOT enable Pages, Rings, Vestment to work for Arcanists.
Pages/Rings/Vestment do NOT modify # of spells known, they allow casting "as if" you had that spell known.
(which does nothing for Arcanist casting)
Lattice works for Arcanists because it has separate sentence explicitly for them in addition to "as if known" sentence.
(there would be no need for separate sentence if "as if known" worked for Arcanists)
Eldritch Heritage:Arcane(New Arcana) is a bit more ambiguous, as it IS increasing spells known,
but implicitly is referring to SORCEROR spells known, e.g. an Oracle or Spontaneous Leyline Witch could not use them.
(thus neither should an Arcanist)
Expanded Arcana (+1 Spell Known) does work with "your class" and explicitly modifies # of spells known,
as long as one doesn't see a problem with them qualifing for Feat in the first place (requires Spells Known casting).
Since Expanded Arcana seems THE primary application of "Feats/effects modifing Spells Known instead affect Prepared" rule,
I am inclined to allow qualification for the Feat.
Arcanists also don't have FCB:Spells Known.
"Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster instead affect the number of spells an arcanist can prepare."Just following up on this because the thread popped up during search on topic...
IMHO it is pretty clear that line DOES NOT enable Pages, Rings, Vestment to work for Arcanists.
Pages/Rings/Vestment do NOT modify # of spells known, they allow casting "as if" you had that spell known.
(which does nothing for Arcanist casting)
Lattice works for Arcanists because it has separate sentence explicitly for them in addition to "as if known" sentence.
(there would be no need for separate sentence if "as if known" worked for Arcanists)Eldritch Heritage:Arcane(New Arcana) is a bit more ambiguous, as it IS increasing spells known,
but implicitly is referring to SORCEROR spells known, e.g. an Oracle or Spontaneous Leyline Witch could not use them.
(thus neither should an Arcanist)Expanded Arcana (+1 Spell Known) does work with "your class" and explicitly modifies # of spells known,
as long as one doesn't see a problem with them qualifing for Feat in the first place (requires Spells Known casting).
Since Expanded Arcana seems THE primary application of "Feats/effects modifing Spells Known instead affect Prepared" rule,
I am inclined to allow qualification for the Feat.Arcanists also don't have FCB:Spells Known.
While I can agree with your basic premise, the fact that you're saying the line doesn't do what it says it does is a little far-fetched to say the least, since that is the entire purpose of that line.
In my opinion, the line more like a Magi's Spellstrike, in that it's supposed to allow them more options than it is supposed to restrict. A FAQ could certainly be used for it, that's for sure.
Also, an Arcanist is an infinitely better Blaster than a Wizard will ever be.
My premise is that the quoted line does exactly what it says.
That is why I affirm that Expanded Arcana works perfectly fine for Arcanists. (the "pre-req issue" not being in actual pre-req section makes it easier to dismiss)
I just also point out that functionality isn't enough to enable ALL related mechanics to work with them.
Although in case of Pages, Lattices exist to offer identical functionality aside from minor difference in weight/storage.
WERE Arcanists able to freely use Rings/Vestments they would effectively get disproportionately higher benefit from them than Sorcerors, because they are able to use them with spellbook that they already carry around and add spells to for free, while Sorcerors must purchase all such spells to use with them and don't get further usage from those spells outside of Ring/Vestment.
The Eldritch Heritage issue is not particular to Spells Known ruling, as I point out re: Spontaneous Arcane Witch. FCB likewise unrelated to that rule.
My premise is that the quoted line does exactly what it says.
That is why I affirm that Expanded Arcana works perfectly fine for Arcanists.
I just also point out that functionality isn't enough to enable ALL related mechanics to work with them.
Although in case of Pages, Lattices exist to offer identical functionality aside from minor difference in weight/storage.
WERE Arcanists able to freely use Rings/Vestments they would effectively get disproportionately higher benefit from them than Sorcerors, because they are able to use them with spellbook that they already carry around and add spells to for free, while Sorcerors must purchase all such spells to use with them and don't get further usage from those spells outside of Ring/Vestment.
The Eldritch Heritage issue is not particular to Spells Known ruling, as I point out re: Spontaneous Arcane Witch.
That was a difficult conclusion to ascertain from your post.
But, I don't think you could scribe spells from a Ring of Spell Storage; especially if you aren't wearing it, and/or they're a spell you can't normally scribe onto your spellbook, so in that light, I don't think it'd work.
For Vestments, they could've just taken the scroll they put into the Vestments and made a Spellcraft check to apply it into their spellbook. But, the Vestments reduce the need for that, and like the Ring, would add them to your spells prepared list, without taking up a preparation slot, since it's in addition to what else you'd normally prepare.
Nothing to do with using those to add spells to spellbook.
Ring/Vestment is useless for Sorceror without further "purchase" of spellbook/scrolls otherwise of little/lesser use to them.... Compared to Arcanist, who gets massive value out of Ring/Vestment just using "free" level-up spellbook spells, and any scrolls they choose to scribe into spellbook are equally useful via normal Arcanist Prepation mechanic, not just Ring/Vestment. Thus why Ring/Vestment would be disproportionately useful for Arcanist, and why it is not surprising for them not to work with Arcanist. Sorceror "needed" these aids much more than casters with access to spellbook/full spell list. Expanded Arcana Feat and Lattices don't have that overlap with normal Arcanist spellbook content, which is why they work and have equivalent benefit for both Sorceror and Arcanist.
"Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster instead affect the number of spells an arcanist can prepare."Just following up on this because the thread popped up during search on topic...
Eldritch Heritage:Arcane(New Arcana) is a bit more ambiguous, as it IS increasing spells known,
but implicitly is referring to SORCEROR spells known, e.g. an Oracle or Spontaneous Leyline Witch could not use them.
(thus neither should an Arcanist)
An Oracle (etc.) can use Improved Eldritch Heritage:Arcane(New Arcana), they just don't get anything added to their spell list by that feat so would need to choose spells which are on both the sorc/wiz list and the cleric/oracle list (or whichever applies for other spontaneous casters.)
As far as an arcanist goes I'm not quite sure how it would interact. Maybe they would be able to prepare that one spell only, on top of any allowed by the table in their class?
@ AVR: That's basically how I'd run Arcanists using a Ring/Page/Vestments.
The real question is who is the stronger nercromancer.
I often see people writing that arcanists get fewer spells than wizards... and I must be dense, because the opposite seems to be the case when directly comparing the "Spells per day" tables of the two classes. The arcanist's "Spells known" table does lag 1 behind the wizard at some levels, but if versatility is the aim, there's the Quick Study exploit.
Is the implication actually that their maximum spell level will be one lower half the time, rather than counting spell slots?
I often see people writing that arcanists get fewer spells than wizards... and I must be dense, because the opposite seems to be the case when directly comparing the "Spells per day" tables of the two classes. The arcanist's "Spells known" table does lag 1 behind the wizard at some levels, but if versatility is the aim, there's the Quick Study exploit.
Is the implication actually that their maximum spell level will be one lower half the time, rather than counting spell slots?
I think it's the spells prepared table rather than the actual spell slots that is less diverse than that of the wizard, so we get to an extent close to the sorcerer paradigm.