This thread made me think of a related question, though.
In attempting to maximize my Channel Energy DC I came across the Symbol of Unholy Command. It's found in the Dhampir section of the Advanced Race Guide. My Necromancer happens to be a Dhampir anyways, although the item is technically legal for anyone to purchase.
The clause that makes me hesitate in purchasing it is "Deliberate use of a symbol of unholy command is an evil act."
So, my related question is this: setting aside the arbitrary nature of determining whether an act is <evil/good/chaotic/lawful>, how many <alignment> acts does it take to cause an <alignment> infraction?
Since using this item is defined as an evil act, does my alignment shift after 1 use? 3 uses? A career of use? It doesn't matter how I use the item, or for what purpose; it's always an evil act.
But how many acts earn an infraction?
As been demonstrated before, there are no rules answer to these questions. It's GM dependent, may even be situation dependent. For example in the Living Arcanis campaign my spouse created an Ellori who worshiped a Human God. There were never any repercussions until the one day he entered a temple of the sole surviving Elven diety (the others having been consumed by the Human gods) and was struck by divine lightning. It wasn't fatal but enough to convince him not to try again.
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Best necromancy option for PFS is the Skeleton Summoner feat. Since skeletons don't have an alignment subtype, this is a non-evil method of acquiring undead. Furthermore, the summoned undead will have a matching alignment, so you can generate neutral good zombies....I don't know where you're getting that from.
Alignment: Always neutral evil.It's part of the Skeleton package.
the Skeleton Summoner feat summons skeletons via summon monster. Summon monster always summons monsters with a matching alignment, even if they would normally have another alignment. Since skeletons don't have the evil subtype, summon monster doesn't gain the evil descriptor when summoning skeletons. Same with zombies via that feat.
And the spell isn't creating undead, it summons them, just like a summoned elemental or celestial animal.
There's also the consideration that other characters at the table may not be able to play with Undead. It's something that can make planning tables that much more difficult. I have an Inquisitor of Pharasma, a friend has a Necroccultist. Despite us being friends, those two characters can't run the same scenario because of the Skeleton Servant. Which means that one of us needs to play a different character than we had planned and signed up for, which can throw off the group balance.
Stealth isn't a class skill for Paladins.
*vanishes into Deeper Darkness*,
"Praise Tanagaar."
It is if they're multiclassed into Shadowdancer.
They get a Lawful Good Undead friend then, too (without alignment infraction).
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There's also the consideration that other characters at the table may not be able to play with Undead. It's something that can make planning tables that much more difficult. I have an Inquisitor of Pharasma, a friend has a Necroccultist. Despite us being friends, those two characters can't run the same scenario because of the Skeleton Servant. Which means that one of us needs to play a different character than we had planned and signed up for, which can throw off the group balance.
Nobody should be prevented from playing the character of their choice because of someone else's character choice.
This is actually a very important point of the OOC Pathfinder Society.
Paladins are sometimes paired with Diabolists. Barbarians are sometimes paired with pacifists. Pharasmans are sometimes paired with Necromancers.
"Cooperate" is one of the in-game tenets. Your characters can find a compromise.
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Nobody should be prevented from playing the character of their choice because of someone else's character choice.This is actually a very important point of the OOC Pathfinder Society.
Paladins are sometimes paired with Diabolists. Barbarians are sometimes paired with pacifists. Pharasmans are sometimes paired with Necromancers.
"Cooperate" is one of the in-game tenets. Your characters can find a compromise.
Case in play:
A character of mine (a fervent follower of Liberty's Edge) was in close proximity to someone who envisioned themselves 'providing in mature partnerships' (short-term).
The v. brief discussion at the rough beginning of the scenario was "Do your employees have the right to leave if they so choose, do you treat your employees well, and do they have means of arbitration or mediation for workplace concerns they encounter without fear of reprisal?'
The other character responded in the affirmative to all the above questions, and we treated it as 'okay, so we aren't talking about this for the scenario Unless It Becomes Mission Critical'.
Folks who are willing to work together can find *some* level of 'common ground'. It should not be a zero-sum game, and anyone that's being truly offensive in either direction should be gently reminded of the base tenets of the Society...
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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There's also the consideration that other characters at the table may not be able to play with Undead. It's something that can make planning tables that much more difficult. I have an Inquisitor of Pharasma, a friend has a Necroccultist. Despite us being friends, those two characters can't run the same scenario because of the Skeleton Servant. Which means that one of us needs to play a different character than we had planned and signed up for, which can throw off the group balance.
Maybe I am missing something? Skeletal Servant? I thought Necrocultists got a phantasm swarm, not skeletons.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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There's also the consideration that other characters at the table may not be able to play with Undead. It's something that can make planning tables that much more difficult. I have an Inquisitor of Pharasma, a friend has a Necroccultist. Despite us being friends, those two characters can't run the same scenario because of the Skeleton Servant. Which means that one of us needs to play a different character than we had planned and signed up for, which can throw off the group balance.Maybe I am missing something? Skeletal Servant? I thought Necrocultists got a phantasm swarm, not skeletons.
Necrocultists get Raise Undead as a part of their implement. Probably much cheaper than the spell. Lasts 10 minutes per level and can only have one up though but still its pretty good.
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There's also the consideration that other characters at the table may not be able to play with Undead. It's something that can make planning tables that much more difficult. I have an Inquisitor of Pharasma, a friend has a Necroccultist. Despite us being friends, those two characters can't run the same scenario because of the Skeleton Servant. Which means that one of us needs to play a different character than we had planned and signed up for, which can throw off the group balance.
Given that you two ARE friends and as you seem to indicate game together frequently, you do have less excuse than others not to have planned in advance.
Guys, I'm not saying "ZOMG! Preventing from playing character!" When he shows up to table to play his occultist, and I had shown up to play my inquisitor, I pull out a different character sheet to play or he does. We could compromise by saying 'no using your skeleton class feature', but that would be like telling my inquisitor that she can't use her bane ability. Or we could compromise by removing the undead hatred my character is based around, but that would be like telling him he can't play his character the way it was designed. So instead one of us decides to play something different.
This means that sometimes the group ends up with a different composition than it would have had originally, without a frontline fighter or down a caster. It's not a big deal. But it is something that will come up if you play a necromancer, so it's something you need to be prepared to deal with. Sometimes other characters simply will not be compatible with a necromancer at the table.
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Had a silly session where my necromancer was in a party with a cleric of pharasma. As players, we were friendly, but as characters, we maintained a professional distrust of eachother's character. As a player, he was very clear that if I summoned/created any undead, he'd destroy them. Meanwhile, my PC found an NPC norgorber assassin and kept trying to talk him into attacking the cleric - didn't work, but I tried. Again, neither PC had any real issue with the other PC on a personal level, it was just a professional difference of of opinion. We both had a lot of fun role playing in this session.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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There's also the consideration that other characters at the table may not be able to play with Undead. It's something that can make planning tables that much more difficult.
I've walked away from tables in the past due to people who are "evil everywhere but on the character sheet". Necromancers and devil worshipping slavers being the biggest cases in the past.
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There's also the consideration that other characters at the table may not be able to play with Undead. It's something that can make planning tables that much more difficult.I've walked away from tables in the past due to people who are "evil everywhere but on the character sheet". Necromancers and devil worshipping slavers being the biggest cases in the past.
Thankfully you don't have to worry about the slaver part anymore.
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There's also the consideration that other characters at the table may not be able to play with Undead. It's something that can make planning tables that much more difficult.I've walked away from tables in the past due to people who are "evil everywhere but on the character sheet". Necromancers and devil worshipping slavers being the biggest cases in the past.
Well, you don't have to worry about the slavers anymore.
But you should be able to find a way to cooperate with the Necromancer and Diabolist.
IME, they'll usually try to cooperate with holier-than-thou crusader types.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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But you should be able to find a way to cooperate with the Necromancer and Diabolist.
IME, they'll usually try to cooperate with holier-than-thou crusader types.
IME, it's been people in the gray area of the don't be a jerk rule going "hey look at me, I'm evil, but you can't do anything about it because these rulings protect me, and there is no PVP, so I'm going to try to see how far I can push being evil before the GM warns me."
Fortunately, it's a very small population, and I can have a better gaming experience by just avoiding them.
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But you should be able to find a way to cooperate with the Necromancer and Diabolist.
IME, they'll usually try to cooperate with holier-than-thou crusader types.
IME, it's been people in the gray area of the don't be a jerk rule going "hey look at me, I'm evil, but you can't do anything about it because these rulings protect me, and there is no PVP, so I'm going to try to see how far I can push being evil before the GM warns me."
Fortunately, it's a very small population, and I can have a better gaming experience by just avoiding them.
^ This.
I've walked away from tables in the past due to people who are "evil everywhere but on the character sheet". Necromancers and devil worshipping slavers being the biggest cases in the past.
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IME, it's been people in the gray area of the don't be a jerk rule going "hey look at me, I'm evil, but you can't do anything about it because these rulings protect me, and there is no PVP, so I'm going to try to see how far I can push being evil before the GM warns me."
Fortunately, it's a very small population, and I can have a better gaming experience by just avoiding them.
In Pathfinder, alignment (and evil) is a real, tangible thing. I'd be disappointed if a follower of the Devil-god of Contracts and Loopholes wasn't trying to game the system.
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In Pathfinder, alignment (and evil) is a real, tangible thing. I'd be disappointed if a follower of the Devil-god of Contracts and Loopholes wasn't trying to game the system.
Difference is between *player* trying to justify their particular brand of Twink via such a mechanism and lampshading it as 'roleplay' versus someone who is doing it legitimately.
Problem is when you sit down to a convention slot with limited time and unknown persons, it is sometimes difficult to tell the two apart.
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Necromancers can do other things.
Sure, but you don't get to tell other ppl how to play their characters.
I have a Dhampir statted up to animate and control undead. I've purchased items that enhance his ability to do so, given him an inordinately high Charisma to increase his DCs, and taken Traits and feats to further improve his abilities.
Can he still cast Fireball? Sure. And he usually prepares at least 1.
But for him to contribute, he's going to be animating that Collosal Centipede that the party just killed.
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Do those other class features create a horrible abomination in the eyes of a widespread in-game faith?"Don't create undead around me" would not fall into being a jerk.It would. Just as much as you telling anyone else "Don't use [class feature] around me".
Your RP doesn't get to trump someone else's.
A Gebbite could just as easily point out that Undead have rights, and be horrified when you Channel to kill them.
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Necromancers can do other things.Sure, but you don't get to tell other ppl how to play their characters.
I have a Dhampir statted up to animate and control undead. I've purchased items that enhance his ability to do so, given him an inordinately high Charisma to increase his DCs, and taken Traits and feats to further improve his abilities.
Can he still cast Fireball? Sure. And he usually prepares at least 1.
But for him to contribute, he's going to be animating that Collosal Centipede that the party just killed.
Sure, just don't be surprised if it pisses of the Pharasmins and othe good aligned party me members or party members that worship good religions.
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Your RP doesn't get to trump someone else's.Do those other class features create a horrible abomination in the eyes of a widespread in-game faith?"Don't create undead around me" would not fall into being a jerk.It would. Just as much as you telling anyone else "Don't use [class feature] around me".
the same to you. You playing a necromancer isn't more important than playing a Pharasmin.
And you playing a Pharasmin doesn't make you more important than a necromancer.
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Sure, just don't be surprised if it pisses of the Pharasmins and othe good aligned party me members or party members that worship good religions.Necromancers can do other things.Sure, but you don't get to tell other ppl how to play their characters.
I have a Dhampir statted up to animate and control undead. I've purchased items that enhance his ability to do so, given him an inordinately high Charisma to increase his DCs, and taken Traits and feats to further improve his abilities.
Can he still cast Fireball? Sure. And he usually prepares at least 1.
But for him to contribute, he's going to be animating that Collosal Centipede that the party just killed.
IC, both parties can find a way around it.
If OOC they can't, that's the real problem.
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Sure, just don't be surprised if it pisses of the Pharasmins and othe good aligned party me members or party members that worship good religions.Necromancers can do other things.Sure, but you don't get to tell other ppl how to play their characters.
I have a Dhampir statted up to animate and control undead. I've purchased items that enhance his ability to do so, given him an inordinately high Charisma to increase his DCs, and taken Traits and feats to further improve his abilities.
Can he still cast Fireball? Sure. And he usually prepares at least 1.
But for him to contribute, he's going to be animating that Collosal Centipede that the party just killed.
IC, both parties can find a way around it.
If OOC they can't, that's the real problem.
Yep.
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Your RP doesn't get to trump someone else's.Do those other class features create a horrible abomination in the eyes of a widespread in-game faith?"Don't create undead around me" would not fall into being a jerk.It would. Just as much as you telling anyone else "Don't use [class feature] around me".the same to you. You playing a necromancer isn't more important than playing a Pharasmin.
And you playing a Pharasmin doesn't make you more important than a necromancer.
Yay! I'm glad we agree. I was thinking this conversation was going another direction.
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Yay! I'm glad we agree. I was thinking this conversation was going another direction.Your RP doesn't get to trump someone else's.Do those other class features create a horrible abomination in the eyes of a widespread in-game faith?"Don't create undead around me" would not fall into being a jerk.It would. Just as much as you telling anyone else "Don't use [class feature] around me".the same to you. You playing a necromancer isn't more important than playing a Pharasmin.
And you playing a Pharasmin doesn't make you more important than a necromancer.
^w^
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Necromancers can do other things.Sure, but you don't get to tell other ppl how to play their characters.
I do agree on princible, but in practice, players demanding other players do certain things is very common. For example, if I have a cleric, I'm usually expected to be healing people. If I I'm not healing party members, there's a preconception that I was not healing because I am being a jerk or because I'm an incompetent player/character. They don't always "allow" me to play a follower of a deity, instead, I'm a healer that happens to have faith.
If I bring a necromancer, there is always that assumption that I am evil. Doesn't matter if my PC is evil, or even uses necromancy for evil, it's just a sterotype (that pathfinder very much endorses).
Regarding the use of undead as a tool, that one is grey in the PFS setting.
First issue is that most players don't think the PVP rule applies to tools of other players, like summoned creatures. They think it's okay to deliberately impair the other players, if their character build is incompatable with cooperative play (directed at the paladins, not the necromancers).
Second issue is that while the anti-undead players are busy destroying their ally's summons, they are wasting actions and resources which could be better spent against the actual enemies. Although not really the fault of the necromancer, as they are just trying to play their class and have fun like everyone else, this is a very forseeable response to their actions.
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Points taken, Murdock, but there are some powers that are better oriented for villains than heroes or even adventures that may not be evil but sometimes dabble in darker things. It's fun to play around and defy the stereotypes by taking something usually considered evil but finding an interesting way to play it differently. But in the same vein that's harder to do where you're playing with random parties and the game lends itself to characters with rigid moral restrictions from time to time.
And it's also true that our perception of certain things may be shaped by media outside of the Pathfinder bubble. Having played the Elder Scrolls for well over a decade before getting into Pathfinder I don't so much find necromancers offensive as much I find them instinctively funny and a little gross. Two years into playing and GMing Pathfinder and I still can't get over that reflex.
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And it's also true that our perception of certain things may be shaped by media outside of the Pathfinder bubble. Having played the Elder Scrolls for well over a decade before getting into Pathfinder I don't so much find necromancers offensive as much I find them instinctively funny and a little gross. Two years into playing and GMing Pathfinder and I still can't get over that reflex.
Gross. That's a great way to describe necromancy without using the evil label. It's gross.
I like the Skeleton Summoner feat because it just summons them from nothing, for a brief period. No mess, simple, clean.
That morally questionable doctor that digs up bones in the graveyards, and from the butcher shop, in a deranged desire to see if he can bring life to the dead (Frankenstien), that guy is gross.
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For context to that label I should perhaps point out that it's been a not so subtle running gag of the Elder Scrolls franchise that necromancy is almost synonymous to necrophilia. I'm honestly amazed that I've had the self-restraint not to make jokes at a PFS table when interacting with a necromancer PC or NPC.
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Always remember that in PFS, your characters are Pathfinders. If your characters can't find a common ground on that fact, regardless of their other interests/methods, to work with other characters that commit what they may view as reprehensible, then realistically that character would not have ended up becoming a member of the Pathfinder Society.
In short, don't make zealots, or invest ranks in Knowledge (Engineering).
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In short, don't make zealots, or invest ranks in Knowledge (Engineering).
I'm not a zealot, but I've found the knowledge of how things are built to be *INCREDIBLY* useful! Everyone should at least learn something about that field!