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Do any of the full BAB classes, besides paladin, gain any mechanical benefit from having a solid charisma?
In the quintessential adventuring party, it's often portrayed that the fighter is the leader and face of the party, but this in personal experience this is hardly ever the case. Or if it is, it's the fighter's player doing the gregarious conversating, with someone else providing the actual diplomacy check.
I'd like to make a martial character who can play the party face and leader with the rolls to match, if possible.
I guess what I'm asking is if there are any archetypes, class-features, feats, or otherwise that allows a martial to get use out of a decent charisma score.
Without being a Paladin.
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Swashbuckler fits the type, or daring cbampion cavalier.
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What the others have already said there is also the Path of War Warlord which gets a good use out of their Charisma.
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Swashbuckler is the quintessential martial face. Mysterious stranger gunslinger fills a similar role. The avenger vigilante also qualifies as a full BAB face type. There's also a brawler who can use bardot performances via charisma, the exemplar. The ranger also has the hooded champion archetype for those of you who feel Robinhood. So yeah- a lot of martial face options.
Bloodragers are of course CHR based casters, although they don't have the kinder social skills as class skills (usually easily obtainable with traits though) and usually the image one thinks of with them isn't 'party face.'
Their are ways to use other stats, in particular INT instead of CHR for most of those things, which makes the Lore Warden fighter a good possibility.
I will point out though that if you are a generally good group, not out to fool or take advantage of people, for a good majority of your basic social interactions you don't need social skills to be maxed out. A point or two so you won't commit a faux pass and most common interactions, such as working with an NPC that already shares your basic goals or dealing with employment can be handled just fine, and having a specialized conman character for the less straight forward situations works out great.
The original Faceman from the A-Team wasn't the party leader.
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Haven't done it personally, but I know there's alot you can do combat-wise with intimidate. I believe Cornugon Smash is central to this. After that it's just a matter of getting 1 more skill point each level freed up to use on diplomacy. The cha score you're using for intimidate should also be good enough for diplo.
If someone more acquainted with the build could give a better guide that would be helpful.
Bloodragers are of course CHR based casters, although they don't have the kinder social skills as class skills (usually easily obtainable with traits though) and usually the image one thinks of with them isn't 'party face.'
"Speak softly, and carry a big, sharpened metal stick".
...great, bow I want to make a Teddy Roosevelt blood rager.
Anyway, slayers can do alright, and don't need the cha to do it. Their studied target can be used discretely and infinitely, and gives bonuses (+1-+5) to bluff and sense motive from the get go. Later, it gives bonuses to disguise and intimidate. Not the friendliest set of skills, but it has enough uses in social interactions (...I am pretty sure it is every social skill OTHER than diplomacy). So no reason not to pop studied target on whoever you are trying to speak to.
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Cavalier definitely works as a party face, but just a plain old fighter with a high CHA, decent INT, and maybe a trait or feat bonus to diplomacy works just as well.
The tactician fighter archetype gets diplomacy, sense motive, linguistics, and knowledge (nobilty) as class skills, which can all be pretty relevant to being a party face.
But tactician's also a little odd, since it makes the fighter a support character. (Tactician is really nice for a cohort or NPC ally, but probably not ideal for a PC.)
Though I'd suggest Cavalier if you're looking for a "party leader" type of character.
A charismatic fighter could certainly look at burning some feats on the Eldritch Heritage chain, though.
I would consider the Noble Blade Swashbuckler. They get an archetype specific deed at level one that boosts social skills.
Swashbuckler
Any Avenger Vigilante, although their charisma benefits are limited. (However, their social identity gets bonuses to cover an average charisma.)
There's an inquisitor inquisition that lets you use wisdom for social skills. Very good party face even with low charisma.
I am not sure if this is what you are referring to, but there is the Urban Investigator.
He means Conversion inquisition for Inquisitors. Diplomacy, Intimidate and Bluff become Wisdom based skills. Very good inquisition. Makes Dwarves even better than they were.
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Take a look at the Dandy archetype for the Ranger in Ultimate Intrigue.
Lots of skill points, social skills as class skills, and Charisma based casting of Bard spells (instead of Ranger spells). They even get cantrips. Might be what you're looking for.
Add in VMC bard and you can get a full BAB class version of the bard. So many skills, so much combat utility.
Plus there's feats to gain illusion spells and enchantment spells from other lists.
Avenger vigilante can do it with a minimal investment in CHA.
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I've always just taken a trait for Diplomacy and spent the skill points.
Class never really stopped me from being able to talk to NPC's effectively.
I do the same with perception.
Fighters with 14 CHA are pretty good since they qualify for Improved Bravery + Inspiring Bravery.
You don't even need INT with Versatile Training/Adaptable Training replacing skill ranks.
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I'd recommend a hunter. They can make a terrifying melee combo with all those teamwork feats you get for free, and they get a bucket of skill points to work with, as well as some spells, freeing up your money for other equipment.
Even though my hunter (hunter7/rogue2) only gets a single attack, he hits hard (crit farming, I usually drop ~50dmg) and consistantly (~+15), and his Ape animal companion can wreck nearly as hard (more regular damage, fewer crits). What's more is I have such a wide range of options with my build I haven't had trouble participating in almost any skill check, though I am certainly not the best at any one skill. I think most skills of the build range around the +8-12 range.
My build also focused on AC, so both the hunter and the AC have ACs around 28-30. If you didn't care as much, you could drop the shield I use and go 2-handed for a significant damage increase.
If your DM allows Traits there are several that grant Diplomacy as a class skill (follow the link and search for Diplomacy).
You could be a pure fighter with a decent charisma, take one of those traits and be the face. There are also a couple that would do the same for bluff or intimidate, but diplomacy has the most options.
-- david
My Party Face Fighter:
Human
Defender of the Society, Indomitable Faith
S15+2 D14 C14 I7 W12 CH14
Feats:
1. Toughness, Iron Will
2. Power Attack
3. Armored Juggernaut
4. Combat Reflexes
5. Versatile Training - Polearms (Diplomacy, Sense Motive)
6. Adaptable Training - Profession (Soldier)
7. Inspiring Bravery
8. Cut from the Air
9. Smash from the Air; replace Weapon Training II for Versatile Training - Polerams (Intimidate, Bluff)
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I failed to mention this in the previous post, but this is specifically for PFS play. I'm guilty of forgetting to mention this on the forums for several different posts before, and I am sorry.
@Secret Wizard
I can't find Armored juggernaut or Adaptable training on the archives of nethys. I can't get d20pfsrd at work ^^
To those recommending swashbuckler: I just don't much like the class. I GMd a home game with a melee fighter and a swashbuckler, and I felt like the swashbuckler was worse is just about all regards. She never seemed to mind, but:
1.) The fighter is effective at level 1, the swashbuckler not until 3.
2.) Crits happen a lot for the swashbuckler, but hardly anything gets added to the crits.
3.) Anything immune to precision screws the swashbuckler hard. Including but not limited to: elementals, oozes, and incorporeal foes (without a ghost touch weapon).
Only time the swashbuckler looked like a BA was when I had a bunch of spellcasting mooks lobbing fireballs and she made every save with evasion.
Plus, the swashbuckler class has literally no choices besides racial options and feats. All the deeds of a particular archetype will always be exactly the same.
It's not a BAD class, per say; I just don't like them.
Order of the lion actually looks pretty nice. A standard action isn't too much of a sacrifice in the first round of combat for a decent boost v.s. fear, and giving a second attempt at a save could be amazing. If the cavalier isn't feared.
A little bit of me wants to combine that with the ghost rider archetype. It's not fantastic, but it's amusing and the fear gaze grants another reason to have a decent charisma.
To everyone with the base fighter recommendations, I understand you can move stats around and take feats you normally wouldn't to make the fighter alright at diplomacy. But there isn't much in the way of additional synergy with having a higher than you normally would charisma in that case.
ie: Outside the skills, nothing is gained from having a higher charisma than wisdom for a vanilla fighter.
I like the order of the lion order, as recommended above, since it provides additional benefit to having a higher charisma.
And if there are any other kinds of synergistic effects from having a higher charisma, please keep them coming.
[lots of legitimate problems with swashbuckler]
Well, you could make a strength swashbuckler.
...yes, I am (relatively) sane. The class is more dex friendly than dex reliant. Heck, it even downplays a lot of the core reasons to go dex (they get great AC with mithral breast plate and shield on top of the scaling AC bonus; their good save is reflex; they have bonuses to initiative)
So you could just take the class as a way of going sword and board while still getting 2 handed damage. Go strength, grab an estoc (cause it is a great 1 handed piercing weapon for the attack/damage booster; could go spear or something?) and power attack, and just get to it. And when you face problems with precision damage, then you can just 2 hand for extra str/power attack. Really, precise strike primarily just makes up for going one handed as a full martial, so it isn't bad to switch back and forth.
Once you don't have to spend your first few feats on dex stuff, you actually open up your options for other builds. I always love me some cornugon smash+ hurtful, particularly on a cha user.
But yeah, maybe not the biggest variety of in class abilities.
Wait till you have d20pfsrd then.
Those are advanced armour training options. You can get them via giving up armour training increases or by taking the advanced armour training feat (which is smarter until level 15).
Note that armour specialization also comes from this.
RE: the fighter gains nothing from the CHA, I just started a party face fighter and I'm going to be getting Dazzling Display and Intimidating confidence to get free aoe intimidates. Combined with Shatter Defenses and I'll be hitting for touch AC to get iteratives to hit more often and improved critical for the 15-20 threat range. There's more to it but those are the key pieces.
RE: the fighter gains nothing from the CHA.
Improved Bravery/Inspiring Bravery + all the CHA options from Versatile Training - Polearms say differently to me.
RE: the fighter gains nothing from the CHA.Improved Bravery/Inspiring Bravery + all the CHA options from Versatile Training - Polearms say differently to me.
I was talking about Ectar's comment about fighters getting nothing from CHA.
And I prefer Heavy Blades over Polearms ;-)
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RE: the fighter gains nothing from the CHA.Improved Bravery/Inspiring Bravery + all the CHA options from Versatile Training - Polearms say differently to me.I was talking about Ectar's comment about fighters getting nothing from CHA.
And I prefer Heavy Blades over Polearms ;-)
Nodachi is a Polearm, and I prefer Sense Motive to Ride. Ride can be taken with an armor training. :)
Nodachi is a Polearm, and I prefer Sense Motive to Ride. Ride can be taken with an armor training. :)RE: the fighter gains nothing from the CHA.Improved Bravery/Inspiring Bravery + all the CHA options from Versatile Training - Polearms say differently to me.I was talking about Ectar's comment about fighters getting nothing from CHA.
And I prefer Heavy Blades over Polearms ;-)
I'll stick to my Falchion. Plus with Combat Competence I'll eventually gain proficiency with the bastard sword to be able to 2H a large one (although it would cut my crit range from 15-20 down to 17-20).
Don't be a slave to optimization.
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Half a dozen in one hand, 6 in the other. Falchion has higher crit range, 2h a large bastard sword is lots of damage dice. But my fighter will be dependant on crits for other triggers (free action dazzling display).
Plus I think I avoid the optimization tag by playing a fighter in the first place.
Remember that under normal circumstances an oversized weapon gives you a -2 penalty to attack rolls, so you're trading crit rate and accuracy for bigger damage dice unless you got something to remove that penalty.
I probably won't do it but it is an option. And effortless lace would work and is relatively cheap.
Nobody mentioned Antipaladin? Technically, this isn't a Paladin . . . :-)
I'd go Bloodrager and simply invest in the skills I wanted. There's no reason to restrict yourself to class skills.
Also... I don't remember ever being in Texas. oO
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The vigilante is kind of interesting, actually. Since you don't really lose much if your different identities are discovered, from a mechanics standpoint, I could do a vigilante that is always in social identity for the skills bonuses and use all my vigilante talents. Especially since it's for PFS; what do I care if the bad guys know I'm "more than a regular merchant"?
Yeah. I really wanted to like dandy when I was first reading it, but kind of came to the feeling that it wouldn't be too good in most settings. Really, not good in any adventure that isn't routinely set in the same city or group of cities.
Back to fighters:
Those bravery feats seem pretty good, don't get me wrong, but none of them give you a reason to have cha higher than 13.
Many of the builds which would feature use of the intimidate skill would also work in intimidating prowess, further deemphasizing charisma as an important stat.
Admittedly, I have not played a fighter beyond the role of "Hit things hard with my weapon of choice", so I am certainly not an expert.
Many <3's to Alex for making advanced weapon training.
I'm a fan of heavy blades as well. Though, if you grab versatile training only once, heavy blades and polearms are pretty on par, since you can always get bluff or intimidate.
Also, it irks me to no end that the Nodachi is treated as a polearm. Sure, they're wielded somewhat similarly, especially when on horseback, but having them in the polearm group opens them up to be used for things like spear dancing style. How do you do that with what is effectively a bigger katana with a longer handle? /endrant
While I'd like to play one someday in a home game, Anti-paladins are most definitely not allowed in society play. ^^
^Psssst . . . Antipaladin was supposed to be a joke.
Bloodragers are of course CHR based casters, although they don't have the kinder social skills as class skills (usually easily obtainable with traits though) and usually the image one thinks of with them isn't 'party face.'
The first Bloodrager I played called himself a samurai, behaved like one outside of combat and was rather face like. He just had anger management issues in combat, that's all.
And besides traits there are alternate racial traits to get class skills (for example Fey Thoughts) but I don't know whether those are PFS legal.
Bloodragers are of course CHR based casters, although they don't have the kinder social skills as class skills (usually easily obtainable with traits though) and usually the image one thinks of with them isn't 'party face.'
The first Bloodrager I played called himself a samurai, behaved like one outside of combat and was rather face like. He just had anger management issues in combat, that's all.
And besides traits there are alternate racial traits to get class skills (for example Fey Thoughts) but I don't know whether those are PFS legal.
Kikuchiyo? Is that you?