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I find the options for plant and vermin companions very interesting in theory, but I'd like to see them expanded upon.
Of vermin, there are about 6 options. They tend to be so weak and unimaginative outside of the scorpion and mantis that they just sort of don't work. I would imagine that even if a spider is weak he'd have some sort of nifty Web relaTed ability or at least a poison that works.
And plants... need more plants. So many more.
That is all.
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A Web relaTed spider variant would be be killer.
Mosquitos are very flavorful.
Anything ancient would be cool, like trilobites.
Some fictional vermin would be cool too, there are plenty in the bestiaries.
How about a mushroom?
Groot is available via the Advanced Race Guide, I believe under the Elf section... there's a druid template that uses plant companions, and a Treant sapling is one of them ;)
What bothers me most really, is that vermin are "mindless" - that is WHOLLY unfair to insectoid/arachnid/etc life. They should not be mindless.
Groot is available via the Advanced Race Guide, I believe under the Elf section... there's a druid template that uses plant companions, and a Treant sapling is one of them ;)
What bothers me most really, is that vermin are "mindless" - that is WHOLLY unfair to insectoid/arachnid/etc life. They should not be mindless.
I think it's more they aren't sentient, and don't have full intelligence. They aren't really self aware, and are kind of like biological "machines" if you will. That's why they sometimes just waltz around without a head, they're not reliant on their brains. (Well they are, but also pretty heavily automated. Arthropodic neuroscience is probably a bit much for now)
I would like to see a vermin companion that does a full metamorphosis for its X-level advancement.
Other cool vermin would be
- Dragonflies (include the larva so I can make nymph jokes)
- Bombardier Beetles
- Stag Beetles
- Cave Fishers
- Bola Spiders fit the web attack idea
I'm not very big on plants though.
+1
What do you mean scorpion and mantis don't work?
What do you mean scorpion and mantis don't work?
No, he is saying those are the only two that do work.
Ooooohh
In that case, yeah, totally agree with everything in this thread.
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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I agree that we could stand to have more vermin companions, and I've recommended including more of them several times in Player Companion volumes. The "trouble" is that Owen keeps coming up with equally compelling other material to include! Perhaps I can make a good pitch for one of the upcoming volumes...
I haven't considered plants as much, but there's certainly some fun design space there.
I think it's more they aren't sentient, and don't have full intelligence. They aren't really self aware, and are kind of like biological "machines" if you will. That's why they sometimes just waltz around without a head, they're not reliant on their brains. (Well they are, but also pretty heavily automated. Arthropodic neuroscience is probably a bit much for now)Groot is available via the Advanced Race Guide, I believe under the Elf section... there's a druid template that uses plant companions, and a Treant sapling is one of them ;)
What bothers me most really, is that vermin are "mindless" - that is WHOLLY unfair to insectoid/arachnid/etc life. They should not be mindless.
That's what bothers me though. I disagree that they are just biological machines. I could make the BioMachine argument for reptiles and birds, too.
Many species of ants actually have distinct social CULTURES. They even play games. Spiders have elaborate courting dances and have some evidence of social interactions, too. Hell, there's a species of spider that actually lives in colonies and work cooperatively. I don't think they are so much mindless as just different or poor understood. I don't like that you have to make them a "magical beast" or "aberration" to make an advanced insectoid critter. They should just be animals with a subtype, if anything - and they should certainly be controllable. Many insects respond predictably to certain touches, or scents.
Given that the game already incorporates creatures long extinct in our world, why not create vermin from the myriad Cambrian era lifeforms? Opabinia would be pretty fun. Likewise Anomalocaris.
We'd have to assume that they were capable of non-aquatic movement, but it wouldn't be the first time biology took a backseat to useable rules.
I think it's more they aren't sentient, and don't have full intelligence. They aren't really self aware, and are kind of like biological "machines" if you will. That's why they sometimes just waltz around without a head, they're not reliant on their brains. (Well they are, but also pretty heavily automated. Arthropodic neuroscience is probably a bit much for now)Groot is available via the Advanced Race Guide, I believe under the Elf section... there's a druid template that uses plant companions, and a Treant sapling is one of them ;)
What bothers me most really, is that vermin are "mindless" - that is WHOLLY unfair to insectoid/arachnid/etc life. They should not be mindless.
That's what bothers me though. I disagree that they are just biological machines. I could make the BioMachine argument for reptiles and birds, too.
Many species of ants actually have distinct social CULTURES. They even play games. Spiders have elaborate courting dances and have some evidence of social interactions, too. Hell, there's a species of spider that actually lives in colonies and work cooperatively. I don't think they are so much mindless as just different or poor understood. I don't like that you have to make them a "magical beast" or "aberration" to make an advanced insectoid critter. They should just be animals with a subtype, if anything - and they should certainly be controllable. Many insects respond predictably to certain touches, or scents.
ah, but do they consciously play games? Are they being romantic or displaying signs of health, and strength, enabling them to reproduce? Ant cooperation is difficult to understand. Queens don't give orders, which makes it quite impressive how their instincts work. Heck, I look at ants and see computer on their movement patterns, specific programming to lead lighter or thicker chemical trails in response to stimuli. Sentience is kind've tricky, and tricky to define. One error to look out for is anthropomorphism. This is transferring human things to other animals. Do spiders feel joy? It certainly looks like it,but we're not spiders now, are we?
By the way, I do enjoy these kinds of conversations, and I apologize if it seems annoying. I'm seeing this as a respectful debate over the internet because in real life people run away...
Also, dragonfly companions. Those would be awesome. At the peak of arthropodic life they were the Queens of the skies.*
*I say queen as in the arthropod world females are typically larger, stronger, and more valuable. Discussion for another time. :)
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I love the idea of mushrooms, dragonflies, and a companion metamorphosis!
Might have to make up a fantasy vermin to have a companion that's more functional than a caterpillar pre-metamorphosis, though it looks like dragonflies go from aquatic to airborne during development, so that might work and check two boxes in one? Or just invent a more threatening (probably toxic) version of a butterfly or moth.
On the plant side, maybe briar bush and poison ivy (like the crawling vine but contact poison instead of grab & constrict). Or a Thorny or Weedwhip with appropriate progression.
For reference, it looks like the current options are:
Giant ant
Giant beetle
Giant centipede
Giant leech
Giant mantis
Giant scorpion
Giant slug
Giant spider
Carnivorous Flower
Crawling Vine
Puffball
Sapling Treant
Personally I do believe they are actually playing games. Many ants exhibit a wide variety of social behaviors. The books by Bert Hölldobler and E. O. Wilson detail many of these behaviors, if you're interested in learning more. A note, though, The Ants is an academic read, go for the other books if you don't have an interest in entomology. Journey to The Ants is a very reader-friendly book.
All that takes is a GM giving you full control. There's a lot of reasons to not allow players to "play" their companions, but it never hurts to ask. They may still make you take handle-animal as a point sink anyway, though.
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Not a new one, but I would like the treant companion to be better. It bothers me that of the 3 (I think it's 3) in the archetype, the one with skin made of bark has the lowest AC.
Well, it's a sapling, and it's less bendable than the other's, I'd assume. AC is more than just hardness. Although as it grows, it should certainly end up pretty damn tough :D
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It's not just low Dex. The sapling's starting Nat AC is lower than the carnivorous flower and crawling vine. It's tied for best Nat AC with the vine after the 4th level advancement, but it's weird that the natural AC bonus isn't the highest by at least 1 or 2 points for the entire advancement.
And while we're talking about the treant, why the heck does it have not just a climb speed, but a better climb speed than the vine?
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Other vermin I'd like to see stated as animal companions:
Solfugid: Its a spider crossed with a wolf and a mouth like a vice grip. Charging crusher mouth sounds awesome and with that art in B4-B5 would be great as an animal companion min
Giant Flea: Read that statline and picture a goblin cavalier
mounted on a flea. It would be glorious T-T
Jellyfish: Let it get big and follow my pirate ship, stinging and drowning enemies as I throw them overboard
Urchin: Similar to the Jellyfish but instead a tank that hangs to my ship hull and trundles up the side of my ship poking people I throw at it.
Giant Caterpillars: I want to majestically ride through the fields on the back of a giant flesh eating caterpillar that spits out blood silk. I don't know how awesome it would be but I'm down for an option of deadly, adorable, and horrifying.
Giant Butterfly/Moth: I don't think we have these yet in game but I could totally see them in game as a kind of vermin horse expy. They aren't great in combat but are awesome mounts. Elven chargers on mother back... Want.
Sea Scorpion: Scorpion in the water from prehistory is all I need to hear.
Giant Tick: it's gross and it's built to ambush, could totally get behind a stealthy ambush tick designed to sneak up and grapple people while sucking them dry, tanking hits till the guy goes down.
Giant Mosquito: (Gimme a bloodbug dammit) In all seriousness a Bloodbug would be awesome and you could do it like the tick, swap stealth and tank blood drain for speed and bleed output
Giant Cockroach: It's a bigger mor horrifying bug version of the dire rat and I love it. Want to build a beetlejuice inspired dhampir hunter with a a cockroach companion all set for trouble. Speed, stealthy, tanky.
Giant Maggot/Giant fly: I don't know how this would be any good or what role it would fill but would be really cool to be able to have an animal companion that starts out in one form (maggot) and then dramatically shifts once it hits a certain level. Something interesting there.
Those are just a few of my quick ideas on new vermin companions I'd like to see.