Design Manager
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wonder if you look at AP bosses, how many come down to being wizards or wizard like ie a high level demon or something else magical.
If the classes were equal with world shaking power you would think there would be rogue, fighter bbeg right?
I don't think that's fair.
Rarely do you see BBEs be any class and they always stagger them in APs.
***
In RotRL Xaneshia is known for slaughtering entire parties. This isn't because of her spells. It's because of a total package. If she does it right she only needs 1 low level spell. The rest is "spear o doom" combined with Combat Reflexes.
Rise of the Runelords is one of my favorite instances of Paizo tacitly acknowledging C/MD. Many of the formerly single classed opponents, like Xanesha, actually had their main class levels dropped and replaced with a Rogue level or two to make them less challenging. Take that as you will.
Also, saying "rarely do you see BBEs of any class" doesn't make it true. For example-
Koruvus (miniboss)- Fighter 2, but with Fast Healing, several immunities, and a breath weapon tagged on. It's very much the "Commoner Pit Fiend" meme, where martial classes are fine as long as they happen to be taken by a magical creature.
Erylium (miniboss)- Witch 3, quasit race.
Gogmurt (boss)- Druid 4 / Rogue 1.
Ripnugget (boss)- Fighter 5. First real martial boss, though he does have a mount that can stick to walls and ceilings, and they bend the rules so that he can actually use it like an animal companion. He's also got a warchanter (bard), who is in many ways the real challenge here.
Nualia (boss)- Cleric 4 / Fighter 2, aasimar race.
Malfeshnekor (optional boss)- Greater Barghest. Stalks the party invisibly and uses magic to control ranged attackers.
Caizarlu Zerren (miniboss)- Necromancer 5.
The Skinsaw Man (boss)- Aristocrat 4 / Rogue 3. Another "Commoner Pit Fiend", Aldern has a debilitating aura, two paralysis causing primary natural attacks, and a disease causing bite.
Justice Ironbriar (miniboss)- Cleric 6 / Rogue 2.
Xanesha (boss)- Rogue 1, lamia matriarch race. Has the casting of a 6th level sorcerer who can draw from the cleric spell list combined with CL 12 SLAs that include charm monster, deep slumber, and mirror image. Tactics include prebuffing with 3 spells, distracting the party with an illusion, sneaking up invisibly, and petrifying dangerous party members.
Mammy Graul (boss)- Necromancer 8. Has Fighter and Fighter/Rogue sons who could be considered minibosses, but they're steam-rolled so easily I don't really think of them as being part of the boss/miniboss groupings.
Jaagrath and Dorella Kreeg (bosses)- Barbarian/7 and Sorcerer 8.
Lucrecia (boss)- Sorcerer/2, lamia matriarch race. Casts as an 8th level sorcerer with CL 12 SLAs.
The enemies generally only get more weighted to the caster-y side as the adventure progresses. There's virtually no martials who don't have some kind of magic or magic equivalent option shoved in. So there are lots of classed enemies used, and in the contiguous sample above we've got 9 casters to 4 martials, and 2 of those martials are more threatening because of their magical racial/template options than their incidental class levels.
They actually rewrote Xanesha from sorc to cleric so she couldn't cast mage armor and shield. Those two spells, lifting her AC into the high 30's, were the cause of most TPK's.
and I just shook my head at Wrath of the Righteous. Marilith Warlord of the entire Abyssal armies. F/7. EWP in 6 weapons and weapon spec in them.
Like, a total and complete waste of feats. It was like wha?
In many of these cases the wizard can be 'just as good' as the other classes starting point with a spell. But that other class would be even better at that same function if the same spell were cast on them instead. I know. The Mage class using their spells or crafting or anything at all for the benefit of anyone else is a horrific and unforgivable thing.
This is more or less how I run casters now. But I usually save the spell if the other party member is good enough. Invisibility I cast on rogues if they need it, but its a great GTFO button. I also let climbers carry me up cliffs if they can easily be scaled, or take 10 in some cases because of how many times I could use levitate better. These tactics hide the M/CD because they let everyone have more fun. They don't erase it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The biggest facet in the C/MD issue isn't really being addressed here. For the "Look at me, I am the greatest" type of player, this is really an issue. Yes, we get it, if you played an old school summoner, you hardly need anyone else. If you have memorized the adventure path, you can fine-tune your caster to dominate play, especially if you can control the pacing. If you aren't worried about dominating the game, a lot of this becomes irrelevant.Except you can dominate a game without meaning to or wanting to. My Herald Caller cleric has a tendency to dominate encounters by the sheer power of her summons. I figured since she lacked the spammability and wasn't a wizard she'd be powerful but not dominating, boy was I wrong.
If you don't want to dominate encounters,
First, use summons with lower damage. At low levels I love giant frogs. They can impose a serious debuff reliably without much damage, making it easier for fighters to full attack due to lower mobility and lower defenses. Later, rely on flanking and other creatures with grab to give the fighter an edge. Maybe throw in things with trip as well, if applicable. Also, creatures with SLAs are good. Many celestials can cast aid on the fighter and then move to flank. They also have spells that heal (and thus stop bleed damage and stabilize) which can help give you more actions while also making the fighter feel better.
Flank is the easiest buff here because it only relies on the ability to move, and if it eats an AoO it lets melee characters try new tactics like combat maneuvers. Bull rush is worth mentioning as well, as earth elementals can do this to facilitate flanks and block exits.
Finally, try to find summons that do enough damage to annoy the boss but not enough to outpace the fighter, because every attack against a summon is an attack you don't have to heal up later (as a party, not you specifically).
Also, as a note for every summoner, prepare your summons ahead of time. I put them on index cards, and even let other players control the summons sometimes, but I understand there are some apps for the IPad which help, and there are probably some spreadsheets you could prep with relevant combat stats. This helps reduce your turn time drastically because you don't have to analyze your stats.
Again, these tactics are probably terrible and might cause problems in some groups, and I am not trying to tell others how to play or have fun. But if you don't like dominating encounters, these help give the spotlight to fighters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
