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So, I really got excited when Starfinder was announced, as were most of you. My question though, is PAthfinder and Starfinder split Paizo in half, so say one half doing Starfinder, while the other half is doing Pathfinder? In that case, does that mean the average rate of products for both franchises will be halved? And, will Starfinder flop before it gets out of the gate? Or will it get a reasonable fan database and succeed?
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From what I understand the product output for Starfinder (at least out of the gate) will be significantly less than Pathfinder. Unlike Pathfinder which has five RPG lines (the rules, campaign, companion, adventure path, and modules), Starfinder will only have two (rules and adventure path). If it is successful enough to warrant additional product lines, that means it will probably be successful enough to warrant the additional staff necessary to support those lines.
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My guess is that it will be modestly successful and not really affect Pathfinder much.
But of course that's just that...a guess.
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Will Starfinder have two lines? I thought i saw multiple references to just one line. Coincidentally having just one line is probably the concession to not wanting to rattle the Pathfinder base too much or too heavily invest in an unproven product. Having it as an all in one, maybe something around 25 bucks a month for a 94 page book? (Hopinghopinghoping) is what is really tempting me to subscribe to it. Pathfinder materials i find have only 1-2 interesting pieces per book and too many books per month to subscribe to anything which is why i wait to flip through books and see if there is anything i would put money down for.
Well, the Starfinder Core Rules are a line of their own, separate from the Adventure Path's, and I'm sure that we'll see a Starfinder Bestiary soon enough. I don't expect the rules line to swell too quickly, maybe 1-2 hardcovers a year.
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It won't split Paizo much, I imagine.
Whether it succeeds or fails depends on how much it changes the core mechanics of the game.
If it doesn't change much of anything, there's no point in buying it. You can already play Pathfinder in Space, and a "new RPG" with an identical is just redundant. Pretty sure I'm not the only one that feels that way.
If they take some risks and actually tailor the game to the style of play a sci-fi game caters to...it could succeed, assuming the hardcore fanbase doesn't pitch a hissy because too much is different. And if it's good, of course.
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Split in half, obviously.
There will be the 'Pa' part, possibly led by Vic. Since Starfinder will suck up all the Scifi-stuff, 'old' Golarion will become a traditional fantasy setting - for the most part, exept for the agreed-on anual visits from its younger brother 'new' Golarion.
The younger brother lives with auntie Liza, aka 'zo' and , since the fantasy stuff is kept by 'Pa' become hard SF instead of Sci-Fantasy - exept for the agreed on anual visits from its older Brother.
Incidentally the anual visits correspond well with the present 'traditional / progressive' approaches to APs.
The 'i' will be busy working in 'I told you so' threads all around the web, just to make a living.
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At the moment the release of Starfinder seems conservative. Not much staff going to it exclusively, one monthly line and one yearly line, so at least for the first year its not going to split Paizo in two. But I think in regards to Pathfinder and it's rate of release it would be more problematic for Paizo if its successful than a flop.
Think about it. If it fails then they didn't commit that much resources to it, they have one or two core books with one or two APs and it's a complete game that had a thing and will either continue on through third parties because its OGL or die a quiet death while we play Space Pathfinder with the material we already have on hand.
If it succeeds to a huge degree then it could eventually rip Paizo in half which could be good or bad. Every once and a while we get compaints about how much Paizo has put out so far and that the game is bloated and getting more bloated. If you go to general RPG forums Paizo gets a lot of hate for it too. With so many ideas already out it wouldn't be too surprising that they'd slow down, especially if Starfinder steals sales. Also Starfinder is trying to be its own game, be compatible and be streamlined based on the lessons learned from Pathfinder so if the core rules prove to be successful I imagine home games would start converting things to Starfinder's base to run Pathfinder games. Then there's the demand for more and more from Starfinder, meaning that it could end with both games getting a yearly hardcover, a monthly AP, and a monthly softcover. Or even worse. if Starfinder is so successful that it steals sales from Pathfinder then Pathfinder may wind down to start a new edition that conforms more to Starfinder's base and Paizo would instead lean on Starfinder heavily until the transition blows over. And then there's the potential for books, comics, games and the works.
Now I don't think all that stuff is going to happen but its a snowballing hypothetical example of how Starfinder being successful is more dangerous to Pathfinder than it simply existing. My guess is that Starfinder will get some popularity and somewhere like five to ten years down the line Paizo will have to lean on it if Pathinder sales wane. Pathfinder will probably not see a new edition but a third game may come out that might as well be a new edition.
Here's my thought. I have no insider info, but I've spent most of my life following game companies.
Pathfinder is pretty mature on the non-Golarion specific crunch end. Further books will have to be more and more niche. Ultimate Performance. Ultimate Basketweaving. The Left-Handed Throwing Master's Guide. This is either going away or winding way down.
There's still a lot of Golarion-specific stuff and AP's to do with Pathfinder. With subscriptions, this is a huge business and likely to keep doing well.
Starfinder is going to need a lot of generic crunch stuff - starships, aliens, robots, more tech, new magic. It also needs the setting and AP stuff as well.
I predict that Paizo will initially reallocate resources between the new priorities. If Starfinder takes off, then they may add some people.
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Based on what the guys in charge have said at paizo con, it isn't going to split paizo in half.
Currently they plan to release a single core book, (which technically will take up a slot of the one of 3 hard cover rpg books that year). After that they plan on releasing everything with a single soft cover monthly release.
How much that will remain true? Who knows. If they sell out 12 printings of star finder they will probably decide to produce more for it.
It would be impossible for it to have zero impact on pathfinder releases, it will, but they probably wont be huge. Paizo has done big releases in addition to their normal schedule before (Rise of the Runelords anniversary, the Updated Campaign setting are good examples). I believe they will be able to MOSTLY manage the impact.
As to whether or not they split their audience, I guess that will depend on several things. In some ways they already split their audience and in some ways they do not. For instance, many gms will never include stuff from numeria in their game. Others don't use Tian Xia stuff.
Since star finder is technically just a time displaced extension of pathfinders existing campaign setting, it might end up not much different then if they released a hard cover technology guide for numeria adventures. In fact I am sure there will be lots of items and rules that someone running a full campaign in numeria will be able to mine from starfinder for their game.
That said, this will depend heavily on how they end up going with compatability. In the Paizocon panel they said that their goal was to make it as compatible as possible with the caviat that if something game down to making it less compatible but a better version of itself, they would probably go with that. If it ends up very compatible it wont be (in my opinion) more of a split then doing an extended AP and a couple source books on one of the more obscure sections of golarion and their supporting rules. If it ends up being far less, that might change.
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Split in half, obviously.
There will be the 'Pa' part, possibly led by Vic. Since Starfinder will suck up all the Scifi-stuff, 'old' Golarion will become a traditional fantasy setting - for the most part, exept for the agreed-on anual visits from its younger brother 'new' Golarion.
The younger brother lives with auntie Liza, aka 'zo' and , since the fantasy stuff is kept by 'Pa' become hard SF instead of Sci-Fantasy - exept for the agreed on anual visits from its older Brother.
Incidentally the anual visits correspond well with the present 'traditional / progressive' approaches to APs.The 'i' will be busy working in 'I told you so' threads all around the web, just to make a living.
You lost me at Aunt Liz.
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Weird, what sources did you read for that? I am doubting myself now but for some reason i was sure that it was going to be one core book and then one product line with books mixing GM, Player, Setting and AP all in one. That is why i was hoping it would be only larger page count softback a month. To an extent this kind of thing already happens. Say the AP is set in the bowels of Absalom Station, the book starts off with new traits, feats, archetypes and gear that everyone can use. the next chapter is the background and history of this part of the station, then there is the GM only AP information for a good while and then the last few pages are beastiary entries for what new creatures are used in the book. If the line does well enough we could see collected products focusing on just character options, setting info or space beastiaries but i dont see those becoming staple product lines you would subscribe to.
This is from Geek and Sundry's Interview with James Sutter:
With Pathfinder, we’ve got the monthly Adventure Path and the monthly Player Companions and Campaign Settings and all these different lines. Starfinder is going to be much smaller. We’re gonna have the Core Rulebook coming out at GenCon 2017 and we’ll probably do a hardcover or slightly more each year. The main thing we’re going to be doing is the Starfinder Adventure Path, a monthly AP product which will have not just the adventures, but new setting information, new rules information, new monsters. That’s going to be one of the primary vectors through which we give people new information about the world and the rules.
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At the moment the release of Starfinder seems conservative. Not much staff going to it exclusively, one monthly line and one yearly line, so at least for the first year its not going to split Paizo in two. But I think in regards to Pathfinder and it's rate of release it would be more problematic for Paizo if its successful than a flop.
Think about it. If it fails then they didn't commit that much resources to it, they have one or two core books with one or two APs and it's a complete game that had a thing and will either continue on through third parties because its OGL or die a quiet death while we play Space Pathfinder with the material we already have on hand.
If it succeeds to a huge degree then it could eventually rip Paizo in half which could be good or bad. Every once and a while we get compaints about how much Paizo has put out so far and that the game is bloated and getting more bloated. If you go to general RPG forums Paizo gets a lot of hate for it too. With so many ideas already out it wouldn't be too surprising that they'd slow down, especially if Starfinder steals sales. Also Starfinder is trying to be its own game, be compatible and be streamlined based on the lessons learned from Pathfinder so if the core rules prove to be successful I imagine home games would start converting things to Starfinder's base to run Pathfinder games. Then there's the demand for more and more from Starfinder, meaning that it could end with both games getting a yearly hardcover, a monthly AP, and a monthly softcover. Or even worse. if Starfinder is so successful that it steals sales from Pathfinder then Pathfinder may wind down to start a new edition that conforms more to Starfinder's base and Paizo would instead lean on Starfinder heavily until the transition blows over. And then there's the potential for books, comics, games and the works.
Now I don't think all that stuff is going to happen but its a snowballing hypothetical example of how Starfinder being successful is more dangerous to Pathfinder than...
That scares me. A lot. I am a HUGE advocate of Pathfinder.If they shut Pathfinder down, I might just shut down and cry.
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Ah, nice. We were looking at the same source material and coming to slightly different conclusions. 1-2 hardbacks a year isnt a subscribable line to me though so i was thinking of the AP line as the only one with the hardbacks as the occasional...
I'm assuming it will be a subscribable line...it may not have quite as much as the Pathfinder line to start with, but it'll probably be enough to warrant it - I'm assuming that there will be a Starfinder GM's screen in the first six months and maybe a Player Character Folio after that, then it'll be time for the first hardcover book. That said...I wonder if Paizo will be going with the $9.99 discounted price on the Starfinder Core Rules PDF like they do with Pathfinder Core Rules PDF.
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...At the moment the release of Starfinder seems conservative. Not much staff going to it exclusively, one monthly line and one yearly line, so at least for the first year its not going to split Paizo in two. But I think in regards to Pathfinder and it's rate of release it would be more problematic for Paizo if its successful than a flop.
Think about it. If it fails then they didn't commit that much resources to it, they have one or two core books with one or two APs and it's a complete game that had a thing and will either continue on through third parties because its OGL or die a quiet death while we play Space Pathfinder with the material we already have on hand.
If it succeeds to a huge degree then it could eventually rip Paizo in half which could be good or bad. Every once and a while we get compaints about how much Paizo has put out so far and that the game is bloated and getting more bloated. If you go to general RPG forums Paizo gets a lot of hate for it too. With so many ideas already out it wouldn't be too surprising that they'd slow down, especially if Starfinder steals sales. Also Starfinder is trying to be its own game, be compatible and be streamlined based on the lessons learned from Pathfinder so if the core rules prove to be successful I imagine home games would start converting things to Starfinder's base to run Pathfinder games. Then there's the demand for more and more from Starfinder, meaning that it could end with both games getting a yearly hardcover, a monthly AP, and a monthly softcover. Or even worse. if Starfinder is so successful that it steals sales from Pathfinder then Pathfinder may wind down to start a new edition that conforms more to Starfinder's base and Paizo would instead lean on Starfinder heavily until the transition blows over. And then there's the potential for books, comics, games and the works.
Now I don't think all that stuff is going to happen but its a snowballing hypothetical example of how Starfinder being successful is more
I love Pathfinder too, I'm a big fan of kitchen-sink settings (My old group used to Spelljammer in Planescape back in 2E, for example. Sigil was at the precise center of the multiverse and every universe involved). I may not agree with some of the stuff the company/employees do, and I may wind up at odds with a good portion of the fanbase for my extremely liberal takes on the rules (I for one am fine with Sacred Geometry). I'd be sad to see it go (Waiting for more Tian Xia people! Where's my kung fu mysticism!?)
But I don't think they're going to shut down Pathfinder. It's their biggest product, period. Last I heard it dominates the market still. I doubt the folks at Paizo are willing to shoot themselves in the foot. They're prepared for this, and by the time it has enough demand to warrant expansion, they'll have enough to snag a few more people to work on it.
Besides, let's face it... Pathfinder is running out of non setting specific stuff to do.
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You lost me at Aunt Liz.Split in half, obviously.
There will be the 'Pa' part, possibly led by Vic. Since Starfinder will suck up all the Scifi-stuff, 'old' Golarion will become a traditional fantasy setting - for the most part, exept for the agreed-on anual visits from its younger brother 'new' Golarion.
The younger brother lives with auntie Liza, aka 'zo' and , since the fantasy stuff is kept by 'Pa' become hard SF instead of Sci-Fantasy - exept for the agreed on anual visits from its older Brother.
Incidentally the anual visits correspond well with the present 'traditional / progressive' approaches to APs.The 'i' will be busy working in 'I told you so' threads all around the web, just to make a living.
That was an embarrassing spelling slip - otherwise: Auntie Lisa. I might also have omitted a ;-).
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...At the moment the release of Starfinder seems conservative. Not much staff going to it exclusively, one monthly line and one yearly line, so at least for the first year its not going to split Paizo in two. But I think in regards to Pathfinder and it's rate of release it would be more problematic for Paizo if its successful than a flop.
Think about it. If it fails then they didn't commit that much resources to it, they have one or two core books with one or two APs and it's a complete game that had a thing and will either continue on through third parties because its OGL or die a quiet death while we play Space Pathfinder with the material we already have on hand.
If it succeeds to a huge degree then it could eventually rip Paizo in half which could be good or bad. Every once and a while we get compaints about how much Paizo has put out so far and that the game is bloated and getting more bloated. If you go to general RPG forums Paizo gets a lot of hate for it too. With so many ideas already out it wouldn't be too surprising that they'd slow down, especially if Starfinder steals sales. Also Starfinder is trying to be its own game, be compatible and be streamlined based on the lessons learned from Pathfinder so if the core rules prove to be successful I imagine home games would start converting things to Starfinder's base to run Pathfinder games. Then there's the demand for more and more from Starfinder, meaning that it could end with both games getting a yearly hardcover, a monthly AP, and a monthly softcover. Or even worse. if Starfinder is so successful that it steals sales from Pathfinder then Pathfinder may wind down to start a new edition that conforms more to Starfinder's base and Paizo would instead lean on Starfinder heavily until the transition blows over. And then there's the potential for books, comics, games and the works.
Now I don't think all that stuff is going to happen but its a snowballing hypothetical example of how
I wouldn't think they'd shoot themselves in the foot either but the hypothetical scenario was based on Starfinder being so strong that it commits fratricide by fans of it's base system so much that they don't get the newer crunch book. If that doesn't occur and Starfinder goes well, then they just have two RPGs that are going well and virtually nothing happens but getting more money to put into Starfinder. Maybe some comics or a new line or something.
On a personal level, if after a year or two of Starfinder, they stopped printing the Pathfinder RPG line, and the Player Companion line, in favor of making a new Starfinder Campaign Setting line, I really wouldn't be too shook up about it. I mean, past small concepts that fill up a Campaign Setting sized book at the most, what more can you really do? I'm not even all that excited for a new Bestiary and would rather get more codexes.
But right now it seems like Pathfinder is still at normal status quo, and Starfinder is going to come out at a very slow pace, with little risk invested in it.
Plus Pathfinder got a ton of new people running around since those humble bundle beginner boxes finally shipped so you got at least five more years to milk out of that.
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...At the moment the release of Starfinder seems conservative. Not much staff going to it exclusively, one monthly line and one yearly line, so at least for the first year its not going to split Paizo in two. But I think in regards to Pathfinder and it's rate of release it would be more problematic for Paizo if its successful than a flop.
Think about it. If it fails then they didn't commit that much resources to it, they have one or two core books with one or two APs and it's a complete game that had a thing and will either continue on through third parties because its OGL or die a quiet death while we play Space Pathfinder with the material we already have on hand.
If it succeeds to a huge degree then it could eventually rip Paizo in half which could be good or bad. Every once and a while we get compaints about how much Paizo has put out so far and that the game is bloated and getting more bloated. If you go to general RPG forums Paizo gets a lot of hate for it too. With so many ideas already out it wouldn't be too surprising that they'd slow down, especially if Starfinder steals sales. Also Starfinder is trying to be its own game, be compatible and be streamlined based on the lessons learned from Pathfinder so if the core rules prove to be successful I imagine home games would start converting things to Starfinder's base to run Pathfinder games. Then there's the demand for more and more from Starfinder, meaning that it could end with both games getting a yearly hardcover, a monthly AP, and a monthly softcover. Or even worse. if Starfinder is so successful that it steals sales from Pathfinder then Pathfinder may wind down to start a new edition that conforms more to Starfinder's base and Paizo would instead lean on Starfinder heavily until the transition blows over. And then there's the potential for books, comics, games and the works.
Now I don't think all that stuff is going to happen but its a
I guess that gives me some reassurance.
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It depends on Starfinder's ability to INCREASE the player base. I worry that Starfinder's players will just be Pathfinder's players for the most part, and they will decrease the amount of product they buy for PF in order to accomodate the new game. In this scenario (one I hope will not become reality) Starfinder will be successful at the expense of the older game, more or less what happened with Wharhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40k (after a fashion).
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It depends on Starfinder's ability to INCREASE the player base. I worry that Starfinder's players will just be Pathfinder's players for the most part, and they will decrease the amount of product they buy for PF in order to accomodate the new game. In this scenario (one I hope will not become reality) Starfinder will be successful at the expense of the older game, more or less what happened with Wharhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40k (after a fashion).
The biggest defense built into the plan against this outcome is the scale of Starfinder's initial release. Another set of APs and one hardback a year isn't likely to be a bank-breaking investment for most gamers. WHF and WH40K were each released as full lines, with competing rulebooks and so on. I don't see the same thing happening here.
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I think it's going to be a great success. I don't think it will ever rival Pathfinder, but I think it will be popular enough to warrant another line alongside the APs 12-24 months after release.
A Starfinder Battles Line would be great, but I'm skeptical that the market is there, personally - I think it's one of those things people say they want but won't spend lots of money on.
I'm more optimistic about Starfinder Tales and Starfinder Comics.
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It will succeed. There is no reason to believe it wouldn't.
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It will succeed. There is no reason to believe it wouldn't.
While I agree, I think one reason to doubt is the general failure of Sci-Fi RPGs over the hobby's history. (I'm prepared to be called out for ignorance on that point!)
Paizo's general business strategy is to sell us a game and then continually sell us regular updates/supplements/expansions/support via a subscription model. There's got to be a minimum level of takeup that they need in order for that to be viable and the fact Scifi RPGs have traditionally fizzled over time makes me worry that the support won't be there (or won't last long enough to build the market).
On balance, I think Lisa and company have the track record to bet on the product's success. Nonetheless, I don't think it's a trivial undertaking.
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The "general failure" of Sci-Fi RPGs is a bit of a stretch. Shadowrun is now on it's fifth edition and Traveller has gone through how many editions now? And there are others that can found if one digs deeply enough.
Well as I said, I'm not very confident in the claim and am prepared to be proved wrong, but FWIW I don't see the multiple editions of traveller and Shadowrun as a success (especially given those two, in particular have gone through multiple owners). Rather, I see it as indicative of a passionate but not very large section of the market.
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... A Starfinder Battles Line would be great, but I'm skeptical that the market is there, personally - I think it's one of those things people say they want but won't spend lots of money on. ...
I, for one, would relish a miniatures line that broadend available miniatures beyond the Star Wars universe. And I vote with my wallet, not lip service. But I imagine miniatures would be a ways down the road.
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The "general failure" of Sci-Fi RPGs is a bit of a stretch. Shadowrun is now on it's fifth edition and Traveller has gone through how many editions now? And there are others that can found if one digs deeply enough.Well as I said, I'm not very confident in the claim and am prepared to be proved wrong, but FWIW I don't see the multiple editions of traveller and Shadowrun as a success (especially given those two, in particular have gone through multiple owners). Rather, I see it as indicative of a passionate but not very large section of the market.Might be more simply put as the "general failure" of RPGs that aren't D&D. (PF kind of sneaking in there - though how it'll do in the long run is still an open question.)
Everything else is pretty much a niche of a niche.
That's a pretty broad statement to label PF and D&D as the best RPG's out there and then label everything else as... meh. I, personally, have seen some very good games that aren't D&D or PF.
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That's a pretty broad statement to label PF and D&D as the best RPG's out there and then label everything else as... meh. I, personally, have seen some very good games that aren't D&D or PF.The "general failure" of Sci-Fi RPGs is a bit of a stretch. Shadowrun is now on it's fifth edition and Traveller has gone through how many editions now? And there are others that can found if one digs deeply enough.Well as I said, I'm not very confident in the claim and am prepared to be proved wrong, but FWIW I don't see the multiple editions of traveller and Shadowrun as a success (especially given those two, in particular have gone through multiple owners). Rather, I see it as indicative of a passionate but not very large section of the market.Might be more simply put as the "general failure" of RPGs that aren't D&D. (PF kind of sneaking in there - though how it'll do in the long run is still an open question.)
Everything else is pretty much a niche of a niche.
That's not to say that PF and D&D aren't my favorite games.
It just means that there are other competitors out there who aren't well known that do have good games.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think thejeff and I were speaking commercially, not aesthetically. There have been very few RPGs beyond D&D with lasting commercial success (Altohugh I think he should count GURPS as well).
That isn't to say that others aren't good, just that they weren't good sellers over the long run.
My first comment was very much an off-the-cuff remark though. There may well be an SF game that has consistently sold well over time. It doesn't seem like it to me though, which is why I think there is some risk inherent in Paizo's move to produce Starfinder.
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I'd say Star Wars has done well over the years, although it's really four games instead of one.
Yeah, I was thinking of that too but discounted it due to (as you say) really being multiple games. I don't really know enough about it though - due to the failure to label each game clearly I've never known which is which, so I've just avoided buying any of them.
The Star Wars franchise is clearly a stayer though (and I would have virtually no doubt that Paizo would create a lasting success if they had the rights to that).
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The End is Nigh!
Doomsayers have always amused me. I think there's another way of looking at this. The end of the world is always happening, but it's that very process that makes it begin anew. Opening up your wings, and leaping off -- that's how you learn to fly.
If you never try new things, you become like a bleached gnome. I like that Paizo is developing a new line. It can bring in fresh blood, and help grow new talent.
Hmm
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Since Paizo is adamant that Starfinder will be Pathfinder compatible enough that Pathfinder monsters can just be dropped into Starfinder (Power Marine fighting Dragons!) I don't think Starfinder needs its own Bestiary Line. New additions to the Core Bestiary line just have to include an alien themed section that is more relevant to Starfinder but can be used just as well in Pathfinder and Done!
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I'm pretty sure that Starfinder's setting is going to be as much of a pulp kitchen sink as Pathfinder's Golarion. Just create a galaxy with no magic for Trek or Firefly like adventures. All sub-genres are welcome.
It makes more thematic sense for this to happen in space/Starfinder even then Golarion's approach of Vampiretown right next to DemonVille right next to Robotsburg and hey Devil Empire is right there too.
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Since Paizo is adamant that Starfinder will be Pathfinder compatible enough that Pathfinder monsters can just be dropped into Starfinder (Power Marine fighting Dragons!) I don't think Starfinder needs its own Bestiary Line. New additions to the Core Bestiary line just have to include an alien themed section that is more relevant to Starfinder but can be used just as well in Pathfinder and Done!
It doesn't necessarily need a whole line, but there is absolutely a need for a basic collection of critters than can be used immediately with ZERO conversion for folks who are either inexperienced or don't own (or want to own) Pathfinder books. Once we have a initial Bestiary tho, I think we'll probably be able to go a while before the next (either with the critters added by the adventure path or from 3rd Party materials).
Ideally the Starfinder Bestiary would mostly (80%+) be new creatures and the remaining would be converted versions of existing creatures that would be more difficult to convert on the fly, with info on how they fit into the future setting.