Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I advise against doing so since a lot of people might not appreciate it. It may just be the wrong kind of introduction to the table, and since those players are the ones you will have to rely on to survive (or hope for their generosity when you die without the cash the get raised).
Maybe day job (talent hunter) could fit your concept better, in any case try not to take the feedback and the discussion to personal,these things tend to explode before the OP can clarify the situation.
EDIT: Try to avoid antagonizing the other players, rather than argue with an in-game argument about slavery in Golarion.
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*pinches nose*
Lore walker, In an argument, you do your own g+~#+$n research. You do not tell your opposition to do it for you. That's not now burden of proof works.
Your claiming that #notallslavery is evil. You have provided absolutely zero proof to back up your so-proclaimed academi, which calls for proof.
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*pinches nose*
Lore walker, In an argument, you do your own g@~~%#n research. You do not tell your opposition to do it for you. That's not now burden of proof works.
Your claiming that #notallslavery is evil. You have provided absolutely zero proof to back up your so-proclaimed academi, which calls for proof.
And as I said, you have said slavery is universally evil. Let's see your proof.... wait, just read your posts. Nope, none.
I will not do your research for you. You chose to come to this thread and spill your lazy hate here. You have no right to tell me what I must do. There is no moderator here, there is no one to say whether you or I is the 'winnder'. This is not a debate. I stated a fact. You can accept it or not.
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Hey, let's move this back to Golarion, because the in game definitions of "evil" and "good" are different than our real world definitions of "evil" and "good".
Are there any examples presented in Golarion canon of slavers who don't have an evil alignment? That would be the evidence that I would want to see to make a ruling.
That is pretty much the precise reason why I made the thread, because it's the Golarion setting in which the Pathfinder alignment rules are contextualized for Pathfinder Society games.
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Many nations of the Inner Sea allow slavery and are not considered evil. This means that within Golarion canon there are ways to participate in slavery that are not automatically evil, or any nation that allowed slavery would have to be labeled as evil.
Applying real world morality to fictional cultures will create some incompatibilities. Look at the number of courtesans/prostitutes that PFS seems to house, or pirates for that matter. Many older faction missions basically told members to murder NPCs or commit other evil crimes in order to achieve mission objectives.
A player could have slaver as a dayjob and still manage to be respectful of everyone else at the table by managing the level of details they include in their roleplaying. However it would be far simpler to avoid any potential arguments by finding something less divisive.
Aaaaaand again with the slut-shaming...
Note that for Nations their alignment is standard given of the entire populace, not just one group. So yes you can have nations where slavery is allowed and not every single citizen be evil, but it doesn't make slavery non-evil just because it's not illegal.
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Hey, let's move this back to Golarion, because the in game definitions of "evil" and "good" are different than our real world definitions of "evil" and "good".
Are there any examples presented in Golarion canon of slavers who don't have an evil alignment? That would be the evidence that I would want to see to make a ruling.
Slavery is huge in Osirion. They have a large writeup on it.
Osirion is an established LN society.
Caught between the potential for permanent economic
harm posed by prospect of abolition and the slave revolts
that threatened to bring down his father's government,
Khemet III instituted the Laws of Equitable Use in 4679
AR. These laws abolished hereditary slavery, established
guidelines under which the government could place
someone in slavery as punishment for criminal activity,
prohibited harsh mistreatment of slaves and killing or
marrying them against their wills, and chartered the
Council of Liberated Slaves. This compromise ended the
slave rebellions and restored order in Osirion. Osirian
slaves today are considerably better off than their
counterparts in other slaving nations such as Cheliax
and Katapesh.
OK, so it is possible on Golarion for a LN society to allow slavery. That implies that it is not automatically evil on Golarion to *tolerate* slavery. And probably possible to be non-evil and work with people in the slave trade. (Their bankers and teamsters, for instance.) But are there any write ups of NPCs with non-evil alignments who actually work *in* the slave trade?
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Contributor
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That implies that it is not automatically evil on Golarion to *tolerate* slavery. And probably possible to be non-evil and work with people in the slave trade. (Their bankers and teamsters, for instance.) But are there any write ups of NPCs with non-evil alignments who actually work *in* the slave trade.
I've been scouring my books this whole time, and have found no non-evil slavers. Maybe someone has a source I don't, though.
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*pinches nose*
Lore walker, In an argument, you do your own g@~~%#n research. You do not tell your opposition to do it for you. That's not now burden of proof works.
Your claiming that #notallslavery is evil. You have provided absolutely zero proof to back up your so-proclaimed academi, which calls for proof.
And as I said, you have said slavery is universally evil. Let's see your proof.... wait, just read your posts. Nope, none.
I will not do your research for you. You chose to come to this thread and spill your lazy hate here. You have no right to tell me what I must do. There is no moderator here, there is no one to say whether you or I is the 'winnder'. This is not a debate. I stated a fact. You can accept it or not.
You have not stated a fact. You started this by hiding behind claims of academia and history proving that not all slavery is evil but have not produced a single shred of evidence supporting your stance. I've made my stance pretty clear that I view slavery as an abomination. What have you done?
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Contributor
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Here, slaves are categorized as "evil wares":
For this reason, the Nightstalls were created. Here, those merchants who deal in evil wares likely to elicit strong negative reactions—everything from slaves to unicorn horns to the finger bones of elven children—maintain mundane storefronts, only revealing their true wares to interested parties and often packing up and switching to new locations on a nightly basis.
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That implies that it is not automatically evil on Golarion to *tolerate* slavery. And probably possible to be non-evil and work with people in the slave trade. (Their bankers and teamsters, for instance.) But are there any write ups of NPCs with non-evil alignments who actually work *in* the slave trade.I've been scouring my books this whole time, and have found no non-evil slavers. Maybe someone has a source I don't, though.
If *you* can't find one...that may well answer the question definitively. :)
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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Not-nice (I'll leave alignment terminology out of it for now) things happen in both this game and in this organized play campaign. Some of these things are intrinsic parts of the game, such as violence (combat), theft (Sleight of Hand or looting bodies), or mental control (many enchantment spells). With few exceptions, pretty much everyone who has played Pathfinder doesn't mind these because they can all can be cast in a heroic light or that of a desperate survival situation . Our characters do not-nice things pretty much every time we roll initiative, yet there's a certain standard of what not-nice things we're all comfortable presenting at the table. It helps that even when these could be graphic depictions of not-nice actions, the typical gaming group portrays them only as graphically as a comic book might, focusing less on the not-nice side-effects of getting a sword through the belly and more on the "You've slain the goblin *remove miniature from the map*."
There are also not-nice things that don't have any apparent redeeming quality, such as torture, rape, and slavery. In fact, using the same "not-nice" adjective is an understatement because these range from bad to reprehensible. Do these behaviors exist in Golarion? Absolutely. Can these be underlying factors in what makes a villain a Big Bad Evil Guy? You bet they can, though as a matter of taste I avoid rape references altogether in adventures and downplay torture. Can acknowledging these not-nice actions as elements in a character's backstory contribute to his motivations and narrative? They could, though there's a lot of variation in what I'd consider tasteful.
Most importantly—and I'm stepping back from my own strong, personal feelings on the matter to explain how I see this as a developer—does putting these elements in the players' hands enhance or diminish the organized play campaign, including both its public image and the players' experience? When sitting down to a game with strangers, does your character's promotion of slavery (or other unredeemable actions) make the game more enjoyable for the others, or does it make them feel uncomfortable, unsafe, and unwelcome? My answer is that these are not conducive to helping people feel welcome and participate in the hobby—a hobby that folks enjoy because it helps them relax, unwind, create, and escape.
You want to know if taking Profession (slaver). I'm happy to provide my provisional answer: No. I do like to consult with the rest of the team regarding these things, so I'll happily discuss it with them tomorrow. At that point I am confident we'll have a consensus decision: No.
In addition to what others have said, it's important to note that you're playing in the real world - that context is still there, regardless of whether you can dredge up a culture that totally had good-guy slavery. In the US, especially, there's a very real subtext when you talk about slavery, especially in a casual or dismissive manner.
PFS is supposed to be welcoming to everybody. Please, please, do your part to keep it that way.
Very nicely said.
That implies that it is not automatically evil on Golarion to *tolerate* slavery. And probably possible to be non-evil and work with people in the slave trade. (Their bankers and teamsters, for instance.) But are there any write ups of NPCs with non-evil alignments who actually work *in* the slave trade.I've been scouring my books this whole time, and have found no non-evil slavers. Maybe someone has a source I don't, though.
Paizo presents slavers (i.e. those who traffic in slaves) as evil every time I can remember, and slavery is the cornerstone of at least one unrepentantly evil race: the duergar. There might be an NPC out there somewhere that is a reluctant slaver and is not evil—likely as someone the PCs can meet an appeal to for help overthrowing the slavers.
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To chime in with Liz's decision to lock this: any endorsement of actual slavery is absolutely unacceptable and incompatible with the community we strive to foster on paizo.com, and it does not matter if it is a hypothetical argument. I'm hesitant to ever say what may contribute to permanent removal from our community, but I think it should be understood that we are completely not OK with hosting this kind of commentary.