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The question is in the name of the thread, folks, I have a character concept that is skilled in the 'acquisition of talented individuals, for a variety of tasks from the mundane to the exotic', and I want to know if I can do it in Pathfinder Society.
Why don't you be frank about it, stop trying to sugarcoat one of the most vile practices in human history, and just say that you want to be evil?
You'll then come to the realisation that this is in the same category as Profession (Torturer) threads awhile back and you probably know how they ended up.
Treating humans and other sentient races as chattel, especially participating in the kidnapping them into slavery, is evil... period, end of story.
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No, we've ha multiple rulings on equivalent things (rapist, torturer, etc.) It's not legal.
I disagree. Slavery is not evil in Golarion. Therefore it's totally legal.
However, and this is a big however, it is a trigger for some. So flaunting it or going overboard with the Roleplaying at the expense of the mission or other players will not win you many friends.
So tread lightly.
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No, we've ha multiple rulings on equivalent things (rapist, torturer, etc.) It's not legal.I disagree. Slavery is not evil in Golarion. Therefore it's totally legal.
Where does this nonsensical idea come from? Slavery is legal in certain countries in Golarion, but the idea it's not evil is ridiculous.
First, let's start with the CRB definitions of good and evil. (This shouldn't be necessary, but some people seem to think they're just team names in the game and not actual words that mean things.) "Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings," which is in no way compatible with slavery. On the other hand, evil characters "debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit." Evil implies "hurting" or "oppressing" others. Debasing, hurting, and oppressing others - generally for profit - is as good a descripton of slavery as I can think of.
"Slavery in Golarion isn't that bad." While there are things like indentured servitude and time-limited enslavement for crimes, all of the places that have them also have full on chattel slavery as well. And while not exclusively racist, there is a racial component - halflings are generally enslaved everywhere slavery exists.
"Sarenrae is good, and also the main religion of Qadira, where there's lots of slavery." No. Most obviously, if Qadira's overall morality was the same as Sarenrae's, they'd have the same alignment - but Qadira is not good-aligned. The section about Sarenrae in Faiths of Purity also states, "Though slavery might exist in your culture, it is an abomination to you." For a more thorough takedown of this, see this post from James Jacobs - to summarize, the church of Sarenrae does not run Qadira, and the church in Qadira has itself slipped quite far from Sarenrae's actual teachings.
There's also the fact that all the anti-slavery groups in the setting are good-aligned. There are exactly three good-aligned human nations in the setting - LG Lastwall, with the major goal of fighting the CE orcs of Belzken; LG Mendev, fights CE demons; and NG Andoran. The Eagle Knights, as an organization, are LG. The Bellflower Network, from the Faction Guide: "Freeing halfling slaves and moving them to countries without slavery, like Andoran, puts the faction firmly on the good side of the spectrum." If opposing something is defined as good, it can not be seriously argued that that thing is not evil.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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No, we've ha multiple rulings on equivalent things (rapist, torturer, etc.) It's not legal.I disagree. Slavery is not evil in Golarion.
Not evil? Or do you mean not illegal? Because I'm pretty sure every single slaver involved situation I can think of in Paizo-published works involves evil npcs. Perhaps owners of slaves in some publications aren't evil. But the ones who actively participate in the market that I am aware of are all given E alignments.
Edit: Ninja'd by a much more comprehensive post...
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The question is in the name of the thread, folks, I have a character concept that is skilled in the 'acquisition of talented individuals, for a variety of tasks from the mundane to the exotic', and I want to know if I can do it in Pathfinder Society.Why don't you be frank about it, stop trying to sugarcoat one of the most vile practices in human history, and just say that you want to be evil?
You'll then come to the realisation that this is in the same category as Profession (Torturer) threads awhile back and you probably know how they ended up.
Treating humans and other sentient races as chattel, especially participating in the kidnapping them into slavery, is evil... period, end of story.
This is not fair and needlessly antagonistic. Some cultures had slavery for people that owed debts or to pay back society after committing a crime. In these cultures slaves had rights and were treated as family and their children were often educated. Yes some people abused this, but it is not much different then current employers breaking laws and being evil employers.
It was not how most modern societies view slavery.
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Treating humans and other sentient races as chattel, especially participating in the kidnapping them into slavery, is evil... period, end of story.This is not fair and needlessly antagonistic.
This is absolutely fair. None of the slaver nations in Golarion is in any way like this, and the idea of "nice" forms of slavery in real history is at best highly exaggerated.
("Treated like family"? Are you serious?)
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The question is in the name of the thread, folks, I have a character concept that is skilled in the 'acquisition of talented individuals, for a variety of tasks from the mundane to the exotic', and I want to know if I can do it in Pathfinder Society.Why don't you be frank about it, stop trying to sugarcoat one of the most vile practices in human history, and just say that you want to be evil?
You'll then come to the realisation that this is in the same category as Profession (Torturer) threads awhile back and you probably know how they ended up.
Treating humans and other sentient races as chattel, especially participating in the kidnapping them into slavery, is evil... period, end of story.
This is not fair and needlessly antagonistic. Some cultures had slavery for people that owed debts or to pay back society after committing a crime. In these cultures slaves had rights and were treated as family and their children were often educated. Yes some people abused this, but it is not much different then current employers breaking laws and being evil employers.
It was not how most modern societies view slavery.
No, it was perfectly fair and blunt.
And "some cultures"? Seriously?!
The example you gave of the 100% imaginary "good" slaver does not only not match up with the explicit purpose of what the OP wants to do, but even if there was this "good" slavery somewhere does make it the standard to raise slavery everywhere up with.
"Yeah, it's getting hard to be a slaver nowadays, since those upstarts up north went and made us look bad. Can't even beat and kidnap people anymore without getting some funny looks."
Edit: Ninjaed by Setty (your Avatar's expression is perfect for this conversation btw)
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The problem is that we see slavery in the context of either how America enslaved blacks, which involved massive amounts of racism that deemed the slaves sub-human and denied them any rights, or modern human trafficking, which is nearly as abusive. As Finlanderboy pointed out, slavery has in fact existed in forms that weren't nearly as abusive, and thus would most certainly not be "evil", in those forms.
That said, perhaps the OP should re-examine why they want to play a slaver; if it's just to get a rise out of your fellow players, keep in mind that could actually genuinely upset them, meaning it could basically put them in a mood that kills their enjoyment of the game. Don't be that guy.
Otherwise, I'd still recommend playing it low-key.
"The problem with slavery" is that it exists.
Slavery is evil. Stop defending it.
Take away the racism? Well slavery still treats slaves as sub-human by dehumanizing them. When you're a slave you're not a person anymore, you're glorified property. You don't have rights or will of your own.
"Oh, well this institution of slavery over here wasn't as bad as other institutions" and "Oh, well this institution of slavery gave the slaves cookies once a month" makes it okay?
Slavery is an abomination. Stop trying to justify it. Stop trying to defend it. In any form or culture, slavery is evil.
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The problem is that we see slavery in the context of either how America enslaved blacks, which involved massive amounts of racism that deemed the slaves sub-human and denied them any rights, or modern human trafficking, which is nearly as abusive. As Finlanderboy pointed out, slavery has in fact existed in forms that weren't nearly as abusive, and thus would most certainly not be "evil", in those forms.
That said, perhaps the OP should re-examine why they want to play a slaver; if it's just to get a rise out of your fellow players, keep in mind that could actually genuinely upset them, meaning it could basically put them in a mood that kills their enjoyment of the game. Don't be that guy.
Otherwise, I'd still recommend playing it low-key.
"The problem with slavery" is that it exists.
Slavery is evil. Stop defending it.
Take away the racism? Well slavery still treats slaves as sub-human by dehumanizing them. When you're a slave you're not a person anymore, you're glorified property. You don't have rights or will of your own.
"Oh, well this institution of slavery over here wasn't as bad as other institutions" and "Oh, well this institution of slavery gave the slaves cookies once a month" makes it okay?
Slavery is an abomination. Stop trying to justify it. Stop trying to defend it. In any form or culture, slavery is evil.
So putting people in prisons is evil? Taking their rights and making them human cattle? Replacing their name with a number(very dehumanizing look at the standford prison study)? Making them work to repair the debt they damaged upon society is evil?
I agree slavery is immoral, but I take the time to look over history and see the differences in it. My view of immorality is not universal and i understand other people including historians disagree. That makes the situational debatable. I feel you are looking at it in a modern lens and it taints your view.
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I strongly recommend against having a PC who is a slaver.
If there are other PCs at the table who are members of Liberty's Edge, they will rightly want to try to free your slaves if they get a chance. (And, honestly, if I'm GM, I'm going to let them. If it's something you paid prestige for as a follower -- there is a guy locally who's done this -- then I'll let you recruit another person at the end just as you would with an animal companion.)
It's just not a good idea.
Likewise, I strongly recommend against making a cleric or inquisitor of a particularly nasty evil god. (I'm looking at you, Rovagug, Zyphus, Urgathoa, Lamashtu, Horsement, etc.) Asmodeus is OK, because although evil, his evil is a bit watered down by being so mainstream. This isn't to say that you can't play a follower of Asmodeus in such a way that you will antagonize other players... but in so doing you'll probably have an alignment shift that puts you out of play.
Even though these things are technically legal, just don't do it. It's on par with creating a character whose rituals include giving a wedgie to all of the other characters constantly. You can just know that it's going to cause gratuitous table strife, and it's not wise to go there.
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I know my opinion will spark some controversy. But there are many examples of slavery in fiction that is not evil. Wheel of Time being my primary example.
Does the institution of slavery invoke some really heinous actions and people? Yes. Does it create a situation that can elicit the worst in people? Yes. Evil has an easier time taking advantage of such an institution.
But it doesn't make it evil in and of itself.
I know not everyone will agree, and some vehemently disagree. That's fine. This is a very contentious topic. Let's be civil.
Game on.
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The problem is that we see slavery in the context of either how America enslaved blacks, which involved massive amounts of racism that deemed the slaves sub-human and denied them any rights, or modern human trafficking, which is nearly as abusive. As Finlanderboy pointed out, slavery has in fact existed in forms that weren't nearly as abusive, and thus would most certainly not be "evil", in those forms.
That said, perhaps the OP should re-examine why they want to play a slaver; if it's just to get a rise out of your fellow players, keep in mind that could actually genuinely upset them, meaning it could basically put them in a mood that kills their enjoyment of the game. Don't be that guy.
Otherwise, I'd still recommend playing it low-key.
"The problem with slavery" is that it exists.
Slavery is evil. Stop defending it.
Take away the racism? Well slavery still treats slaves as sub-human by dehumanizing them. When you're a slave you're not a person anymore, you're glorified property. You don't have rights or will of your own.
"Oh, well this institution of slavery over here wasn't as bad as other institutions" and "Oh, well this institution of slavery gave the slaves cookies once a month" makes it okay?
Slavery is an abomination. Stop trying to justify it. Stop trying to defend it. In any form or culture, slavery is evil.
So putting people in prisons is evil? Taking their rights and making them human cattle? Replacing their name with a number(very dehumanizing look at the standford prison study)? Making them work to repair the debt they damaged upon society is evil?
I agree slavery is immoral, but I take the time to look over history and see the differences in it. My view of immorality is not universal and i understand other people including historians disagree. That makes the situational debatable. I feel you are looking at it in a modern lens and it taints your view.
Because criminals are confined, slavery's not wrong?
Holy crap, dude, just stop.
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The problem is that we see slavery in the context of either how America enslaved blacks, which involved massive amounts of racism that deemed the slaves sub-human and denied them any rights, or modern human trafficking, which is nearly as abusive. As Finlanderboy pointed out, slavery has in fact existed in forms that weren't nearly as abusive, and thus would most certainly not be "evil", in those forms.
I challenge you to name a real historical example. Most times I hear verbiage like that are from folks who try to whitewash the nasty truths of American slavery. If you look through history, the general truth about societies who practised slavery was that for the bulk of the enslaved, life was nasty, brutal, and short.
To be truth it doesn't matter even if you can. To treat a person as property is nothing less but the complete dehumanisation of said person.. to essentially transform her or him into a THING. And that's evil in my book.
Show up with Profession (Slaver) on any PFS table I run, and you and I are going to have a discussion.
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The problem is that we see slavery in the context of either how America enslaved blacks, which involved massive amounts of racism that deemed the slaves sub-human and denied them any rights, or modern human trafficking, which is nearly as abusive. As Finlanderboy pointed out, slavery has in fact existed in forms that weren't nearly as abusive, and thus would most certainly not be "evil", in those forms.
That said, perhaps the OP should re-examine why they want to play a slaver; if it's just to get a rise out of your fellow players, keep in mind that could actually genuinely upset them, meaning it could basically put them in a mood that kills their enjoyment of the game. Don't be that guy.
Otherwise, I'd still recommend playing it low-key.
"The problem with slavery" is that it exists.
Slavery is evil. Stop defending it.
Take away the racism? Well slavery still treats slaves as sub-human by dehumanizing them. When you're a slave you're not a person anymore, you're glorified property. You don't have rights or will of your own.
"Oh, well this institution of slavery over here wasn't as bad as other institutions" and "Oh, well this institution of slavery gave the slaves cookies once a month" makes it okay?
Slavery is an abomination. Stop trying to justify it. Stop trying to defend it. In any form or culture, slavery is evil.
So putting people in prisons is evil? Taking their rights and making them human cattle? Replacing their name with a number(very dehumanizing look at the standford prison study)? Making them work to repair the debt they damaged upon society is evil?
I agree slavery is immoral, but I take the time to look over history and see the differences in it. My view of immorality is not universal and i understand other people including historians disagree. That makes the situational debatable. I feel you are looking at it in a modern lens and it taints your view.
Dont conflate prison time and confinement with slavery, it's a poor argument that irritatingly keeps getting thrown up by Slavery-apologists.
Human cattle? Uh what? Pretty sure they don't do mass milkings on inmates...
This situation is not debatable. I'm not looking at through a modern lens, I'm looking at through a moral one. If anything your belief in moral relativism as a crutch for your view taints it.
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Even though these things are technically legal, just don't do it. It's on par with creating a character whose rituals include giving a wedgie to all of the other characters constantly. You can just know that it's going to cause gratuitous table strife, and it's not wise to go there.
I agree with this. Even if you choose a really tame and non debasing form of slavery, it will usually cause a level of strife not healthy for the hobby.
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So putting people in prisons is evil? Taking their rights and making them human cattle?
Given the practises of privatised prison systems where, how, and why they are run, you're going to find cases in this country where the answer is clearly yes. We actually have prison systems suing states for not providing as many prisoners as contracted for.
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Even though these things are technically legal, just don't do it. It's on par with creating a character whose rituals include giving a wedgie to all of the other characters constantly. You can just know that it's going to cause gratuitous table strife, and it's not wise to go there.I agree with this. Even if you choose a really tame and non debasing form of slavery, it will usually cause a level of strife not healthy for the hobby.
Because all forms of slavery are evil.
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I know my opinion will spark some controversy. But there are many examples of slavery in fiction that is not evil. Wheel of Time being my primary example.
I would debate that. In fact I would not see a single instance of slavery, fictional or otherwise that doesn't fall into eithr the D+D definition, or any civilized definition of evil.
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Because all forms of slavery are evil.Even though these things are technically legal, just don't do it. It's on par with creating a character whose rituals include giving a wedgie to all of the other characters constantly. You can just know that it's going to cause gratuitous table strife, and it's not wise to go there.I agree with this. Even if you choose a really tame and non debasing form of slavery, it will usually cause a level of strife not healthy for the hobby.
My example of Wheel of Time notwithstanding?
My go to is always squires. They have little to no rights. Often times they were 'indebted' by their parents. They do what their knight tells them. They get the sucky jobs of cleaning prepping. Anyone messes with a knight's squire... they answer to the knight. If the squire steps out of line, The knight is responsible for reperations and punishment.
Yet if there is a Paladin character who wants to have a squire to hold his horse and polish his armor... I wouldn't have an issue with that. The paladin however would view it more along the lines of a mentorship and not be too harsh, but the rights and responsibilities of his servant are still in fact there.
The actual mechanical/legal differences are pretty narrow.
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I would debate that. In fact I would not see a single instance of slavery, fictional or otherwise that doesn't fall into eithr the D+D definition, or any civilized definition of evil.I know my opinion will spark some controversy. But there are many examples of slavery in fiction that is not evil. Wheel of Time being my primary example.
Certainly brings a whole new meaning and concept of the honor bound slavery of the desert folk (not sure why I can't remember thier name).
I respect your opinion. I just don't completely agree on the 100% thing.
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Even though these things are technically legal, just don't do it. It's on par with creating a character whose rituals include giving a wedgie to all of the other characters constantly. You can just know that it's going to cause gratuitous table strife, and it's not wise to go there.I agree with this. Even if you choose a really tame and non debasing form of slavery, it will usually cause a level of strife not healthy for the hobby.
There is no non-debasing way to be owned by another human being.
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My example of Wheel of Time notwithstanding?Because all forms of slavery are evil.Even though these things are technically legal, just don't do it. It's on par with creating a character whose rituals include giving a wedgie to all of the other characters constantly. You can just know that it's going to cause gratuitous table strife, and it's not wise to go there.I agree with this. Even if you choose a really tame and non debasing form of slavery, it will usually cause a level of strife not healthy for the hobby.
Burden of proof requires the person bringing it to the argument to back it up, not the people they're arguing against.
A la not everyone has read Wheel of Time.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Even though these things are technically legal, just don't do it. It's on par with creating a character whose rituals include giving a wedgie to all of the other characters constantly. You can just know that it's going to cause gratuitous table strife, and it's not wise to go there.I agree with this. Even if you choose a really tame and non debasing form of slavery, it will usually cause a level of strife not healthy for the hobby.
Doubly agree, here.
The only PFS player I've ever come close to removing from my store was a profession (slaver). This was back in season 1, when we weren't quite as in touch with how Golarion worked. It was painfully obvious that he was using his game mechanic to push peoples' buttons. The fact that I'm a coffee shop with a lot of non-gamer clientele didn't seem to deter him. After seeing the look on one couple's faces when he started in on his spiel, I decided to put my foot down and tell him to shut up about it or get kicked out. That couple made it a point to thank me, right in front of the player. He didn't try that again.
Like rknop said, don't be that guy.
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My go to is always squires. They have little to no rights. Often times they were 'indebted' by their parents. They do what their knight tells them. They get the sucky jobs of cleaning prepping. Anyone messes with a knight's squire... they answer to the knight. If the squire steps out of line, The knight is responsible for reperations and punishment.
Yet if there is a Paladin character who wants to have a squire to hold his horse and polish his armor... I wouldn't have an issue with that. The paladin however would view it more along the lines of a mentorship and not be too harsh, but the rights and responsibilities of his servant are still in fact there.
The actual mechanical/legal differences are pretty narrow.
Squires are not the same. While they did have to do the scutwork and nonesuch, a squire was not the chattel property of the knight. They were typically of noble birth and the squire was essentially a knight apprentice.
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My go to is always squires. They have little to no rights. Often times they were 'indebted' by their parents. They do what their knight tells them. They get the sucky jobs of cleaning prepping. Anyone messes with a knight's squire... they answer to the knight. If the squire steps out of line, The knight is responsible for reperations and punishment.
Yet if there is a Paladin character who wants to have a squire to hold his horse and polish his armor... I wouldn't have an issue with that. The paladin however would view it more along the lines of a mentorship and not be too harsh, but the rights and responsibilities of his servant are still in fact there.
The actual mechanical/legal differences are pretty narrow.
Indebted slavery/serfdom is still slavery.
Fantasy squires on the other hand tend to be in a mentor/apprentice position than what you mentioned.
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Squires are not the same. While they did have to do the scutwork and nonesuch, a squire was not the chattel property of the knight. They were typically of noble birth and the squire was essentially a knight apprentice.My go to is always squires. They have little to no rights. Often times they were 'indebted' by their parents. They do what their knight tells them. They get the sucky jobs of cleaning prepping. Anyone messes with a knight's squire... they answer to the knight. If the squire steps out of line, The knight is responsible for reperations and punishment.
Yet if there is a Paladin character who wants to have a squire to hold his horse and polish his armor... I wouldn't have an issue with that. The paladin however would view it more along the lines of a mentorship and not be too harsh, but the rights and responsibilities of his servant are still in fact there.
The actual mechanical/legal differences are pretty narrow.
That's what I thought but I wasn't sure. Don't know much about real world squires.
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The problem is that we see slavery in the context of either how America enslaved blacks, which involved massive amounts of racism that deemed the slaves sub-human and denied them any rights, or modern human trafficking, which is nearly as abusive. As Finlanderboy pointed out, slavery has in fact existed in forms that weren't nearly as abusive, and thus would most certainly not be "evil", in those forms.
That said, perhaps the OP should re-examine why they want to play a slaver; if it's just to get a rise out of your fellow players, keep in mind that could actually genuinely upset them, meaning it could basically put them in a mood that kills their enjoyment of the game. Don't be that guy.
Otherwise, I'd still recommend playing it low-key.
"The problem with slavery" is that it exists.
Slavery is evil. Stop defending it.
Take away the racism? Well slavery still treats slaves as sub-human by dehumanizing them. When you're a slave you're not a person anymore, you're glorified property. You don't have rights or will of your own.
"Oh, well this institution of slavery over here wasn't as bad as other institutions" and "Oh, well this institution of slavery gave the slaves cookies once a month" makes it okay?
Slavery is an abomination. Stop trying to justify it. Stop trying to defend it. In any form or culture, slavery is evil.
So putting people in prisons is evil? Taking their rights and making them human cattle? Replacing their name with a number(very dehumanizing look at the standford prison study)? Making them work to repair the debt they damaged upon society is evil?
That's what I thought but I wasn't sure. Don't know much about real world squires.Squires are not the same. While they did have to do the scutwork and nonesuch, a squire was not the chattel property of the knight. They were typically of noble birth and the squire was essentially a knight apprentice.My go to is always squires. They have little to no rights. Often times they were 'indebted' by their parents. They do what their knight tells them. They get the sucky jobs of cleaning prepping. Anyone messes with a knight's squire... they answer to the knight. If the squire steps out of line, The knight is responsible for reperations and punishment.
Yet if there is a Paladin character who wants to have a squire to hold his horse and polish his armor... I wouldn't have an issue with that. The paladin however would view it more along the lines of a mentorship and not be too harsh, but the rights and responsibilities of his servant are still in fact there.
The actual mechanical/legal differences are pretty narrow.
Real world squires probably varied from case to case, but the trope of knight apprentice has heavy literary as well as historical tradition behind it.
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I would debate that. In fact I would not see a single instance of slavery, fictional or otherwise that doesn't fall into eithr the D+D definition, or any civilized definition of evil.I know my opinion will spark some controversy. But there are many examples of slavery in fiction that is not evil. Wheel of Time being my primary example.
Then you have not looked hard enough... or maybe even at all. Yes, forced slavery is evil. Very very few will disagree here... and I wouldn't want to have a conversation with the ones who do. But judging every slave system based on the famous horrible ones is just plain lacking intelligence or common sense. This is no different than judging a group of people based on meeting a few of its members or hating a company because one of their supervisors was a jerk to you once. I'm not trying to defend horrible acts caused by forced slavery systems(By forced I do not include judicial based slavery but I do include slavery from war, slavery by birth and slavery by abduction). But I am trying to get across the fact that until you know all you can not judge all.
Historically, most slavery has been forced. But there has been plenty where people literally sold themselves into slavery or otherwise accepted it of their own choice and were protected by the law against mistreatment, This includesa system I know of where after a certain period of time the slave must be released... but they could choose to stay and often did. True, sometimes the level of mistreatment(really, I should say punishment here) could include things we would consider extremely harsh. But it hasn't always been the common picture people have of men and women in chains with no hope and no personal agency.
Once again, slavery has been usually, almost always, evil. But getting hot and bothered by a concept you have only experienced from the other side of the tv screen or from the pages of a book to the point of blinding yourself to the real facts of the world is something no rational person should do about ANY subject.
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But, to the OP, the mouth-frothers(those who hear a word and erupt instead of hearing you out completely) are the reason why it is probably a bad idea to go with the concept unless you happen to know your local group. It is legal, but as has been noted it is not necessarily a good idea. Fights at the table over your concept are incredibly jarring and never worth having.
Also, it is a bad idea if you follow most of Golarion's systems of slavery too... so yah. Really, just not a good idea.
Squires are not the same. While they did have to do the scutwork and nonesuch, a squire was not the chattel property of the knight. They were typically of noble birth and the squire was essentially a knight apprentice.My go to is always squires. They have little to no rights. Often times they were 'indebted' by their parents. They do what their knight tells them. They get the sucky jobs of cleaning prepping. Anyone messes with a knight's squire... they answer to the knight. If the squire steps out of line, The knight is responsible for reperations and punishment.
Yet if there is a Paladin character who wants to have a squire to hold his horse and polish his armor... I wouldn't have an issue with that. The paladin however would view it more along the lines of a mentorship and not be too harsh, but the rights and responsibilities of his servant are still in fact there.
The actual mechanical/legal differences are pretty narrow.
Which is where the fantasy world comes in. The stableboy squire is quite the common trope, and without the free will or dignity to tell the knight to shove his orders without getting a beating... there's very little difference.
You do the crap work. You do not get paid. You are provided with food, clothing, lodging and knowledge for when your prepared to be on your own.
Real world stuff has very little place in fantasy worlds. Otherwise there is a long list of character types that become truly sucky to play including anyone 'young', anyone female, anyone but rich and white and male...
However, while I can see decent 'Good' characters with a well treated servant/squire/housekeeper.... I really can't think of ANY unoffensive way to actually BE a slave dealer. That crosses lines.
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Most times I hear verbiage like that are from folks who try to whitewash the nasty truths of American slavery.Yes, because
how America enslaved blacks, which involved massive amounts of racism that deemed the slaves sub-human and denied them any rightsIs totally whitewashing it. American slavery was brutal, and I wouldn't hesitate to call it evil.
That doesn't mean all forms of slavery are automatically the same; perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the in-Golarion form of thralldom practiced in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings. That is very much slavery, but thralls do have some rights; they're automatically freed after a set period, and can even file complaints against cruel or unfair masters.
Show up with Profession (Slaver) on any PFS table I run,and you and I are going to have a discussion.You giving a barely-restrained frothing-at-the-mouth rant is not a "discussion".
Saying they have "some" hypothetical rights doesn't make it any less evil.
And apologies for not coddling and sweet talking slavery-apologists.
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so being a pesh dealer ..... or a prostitute of a certain goddess is legal but not a slaver ?
maybe I am the only one that can see the irony...
any slavers are welcome at my table...along with zon kuthon torturers...and other silly professions ( In game)
and you know why ?
Because its a Game... a game that is fantasy. where you make believe what happens . And I for one wont ruin the players idea or character background because someone might get butthurt.
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perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the in-Golarion form of thralldom practiced in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings.
A) Enslaving POWs is evil. B) "Criminals might have to work as punishment, therefore slavery isn't wrong!" Sheesh.
and can even file complaints against cruel or unfair masters.
But they rarely do because they'll be punished for it. Seriously, that's right in the page you linked, which is all of three lines long.
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I would debate that. In fact I would not see a single instance of slavery, fictional or otherwise that doesn't fall into eithr the D+D definition, or any civilized definition of evil.I know my opinion will spark some controversy. But there are many examples of slavery in fiction that is not evil. Wheel of Time being my primary example.
Then you have not looked hard enough... or maybe even at all. Yes, forced slavery is evil. Very very few will disagree here... and I wouldn't want to have a conversation with the ones who do. But judging every slave system based on the famous horrible ones is just plain lacking intelligence or common sense. This is no different than judging a group of people based on meeting a few of its members or hating a company because one of their supervisors was a jerk to you once. I'm not trying to defend horrible acts caused by forced slavery systems(By forced I do not include judicial based slavery but I do include slavery from war, slavery by birth and slavery by abduction). But I am trying to get across the fact that until you know all you can not judge all.
Historically, most slavery has been forced. But there has been plenty where people literally sold themselves into slavery or otherwise accepted it of their own choice and were protected by the law against mistreatment, This includesa system I know of where after a certain period of time the slave must be released... but they could choose to stay and often did. True, sometimes the level of mistreatment(really, I should say punishment here) could include things we would consider extremely harsh. But it hasn't always been the common picture people have of men and women in chains with no hope and no personal agency.
Once again, slavery has been usually, almost always, evil. But getting hot and bothered by a concept you have only experienced from the other side of the tv screen or from the pages of a book to the point of blinding yourself to...
And again, like every other apologist for slavery, you've gone to the "not all of them were bad" argument without naming a SINGLE historical example to back your point.
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so being a pesh dealer ..... or a prostitute of a certain goddess is legal but not a slaver ?
maybe I am the only one that can see the irony...
any slavers are welcome at my table...along with zon kuthon torturers...and other silly professions ( In game)
and you know why ?
Because its a Game... a game that is fantasy. where you make believe what happens . And I for one wont ruin the players idea or character background because someone might get butthurt.
Pesh dealer? Possibly.
Pesh pusher? Yes.
And oh for the love of gods- of course the slut-shaming commences. Because sex is bad. And woman (and men, but we all know who you were referring to) being in charge of their sexuality and taking pride in it is bad as well. Is very bad. Bad as completely stripping away another person's humanity.
Yes it's game, that a group of people get together and build forth with their imaginations and personalities. Complete Detachment like you describe isn't healthy.
Going off the above I'm guessing you wouldn't have any problems running a game with a serial rapist character?
Slavery on golarion ranges from the horrors of chattel slavery that would qualify as evil in a heartbeat to the greek slavery that, while far from good, is far more of a gray area. It would greatly depend on which one the person was doing.
Are you under the impression that Greek Slavery was some halcyon ideal? Keep in mind that this was a culture that had problems viewing Women as human. And invented the word barbarian to mock the way every foreigner spoke.
There was a reason that Sparta was such a militarised society. They treated their slaves so badly, and had so many of them, they were essentially forced to militarise their entire citizen population to keep them in chains.
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If you get upset someones imaginary friend(PC) does that you believe is evil you have other serious issues.
I respect other people to have a valid opinion of mine that does not hurt other people. It is not like they are carrying the stars and bars to the table shouting white power.
They are takign the time to be a pretend person to help tell a story. Maybe they view themsevles as a anti-hero with a shaded story. Now if you do not like it in your game fine. But respect their ability to disagree, and do not get mad at them.
Getting mad and asking some to stop participating in the honest discussion because you firmly disagree with them is creating a destructive society. You can agree to disagree, and choose not tell play that story together as friends.
This simple question is not a reason to get upset, or belittle other people. No matter who you are. There is always a polite way to disagree not matter how wrong they are.