In something like space opera spaceships are something that are a must. There is a lot of potential for them good and bad. Although that said I hope somebody has flying saucers available for PCs and GMs. I have had dreams on them for quite some time.
I have similar experiences with spaceships that you do. I'm confident they'll address the issue but don't have any great suggestions.
PS - I think the 10x10x10 metric ton was from the original traveller (though that's just a vague recollection).
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Spaceship PCS!!!!
(But seriously, maybe some kind of side-system such that as the party grows and levels, their ship can do so alongside them? Learn new maneuvers, gain ship traits, etc.)
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Not just ship combat but combat with various sci fi vehicles like Gundams, Starfighters, Speeder Bikes, or even grav tanks. All of this would be a must.
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It's pretty much the same issue focused when characters are on a sailing ship. Each character can fulfill a different role, or each player can be given something else to do or dice to roll for a specific task. The "Ship as one giant PC, with players working as a team" is generally how ships WORK.
If you want it to be 'smoother' or 'faster' or whatever, you have to give a specific goal. What do those terms mean to you?
You'll find in most SciFi / Space Opera shows, most of the crew isn't directly contributing to the fight. Oh, sure, Ensign Snuffy is making sure the hyperspace capacitors are properly charged and not damaged, and Sgt Shootem has a marine crew ready to repel boarders, but we don't see that very much. Even the main characters often aren't all directly contributing. What are Princess Leia and C-3PO doing on the Millenium Falcon in a fight? Not much, that's for sure.
So if you're running the game or wanting one that meets your requirements, you'll have to be a bit more specific.
Personally, I'd talk with the players and find out how they would be interested in working together for it.
If everyone wants a specific role, such as engineer and pilot and gunner and whatnot, then the "Giant Team PC" that is the default works fine (though you MIGHT want to add more options. Personally I take the D20 Future AND Star Wars D20 character spaceship roles options and smush them together, so all the side roles have plenty ways to help).
On the other hand, if EVERYONE wants to fight and shoot guns, the DM should consider them getting some type of Drone Ship (small party) or Carrier (large party) and the players planning out their characters accordingly. This way, each person gets to control a ship, even though it isn't THE ship, and everyone gets to fight as normal on the battlemap. Of course, this will slow things down, just as more PC's cause combats to take longer.
This Starfinder reminds me a LOT of the old Dragonstar. I hope it is a spiritual successor to it, because that setting was quite interesting. I do, however, hope they give us better ship-to-ship rules than we've seen in prior Pathfinder supplements.
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"Levelling" a ship is an interesting concept, but how would it be done? A system of 'upgrades' and purchases that make the ship bigger or more capable? Or are you referring to a 'living ship' that has Hit Dice and whatnot, and actually 'grows' over time (like a Dragon)?
I hope there's good rules for ship to ship combat, from fighter scale to cap ship scale.
Anything not Firefly-related.
Cuz hurling a spear through a ship is stupid.
Although it did make me laugh.
I was the only one in the theatre laughing.
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So Spelljammer types arent exactly out.
The Paizo staff seem to exhibit an extreme dislike for Spelljammer style cosmology, particurlarly flat worlds on turtles, and open sailing ships that provide atmosphere and gravity just by being in Spelljammer's magical wildspace.
Distant Worlds shows a very distinct bias towards a very "sciencey" type of space setting, at least on the level of classic pulps.
It was some harpoon-like weapon fired from an impossible angle against a crippled, grounded ship in a tunnel simply for a quick 'gotcha' kill to a main character for no reason.
Didn't make me laugh, but was a definite facepalm moment. Joss does some clever stuff most of the time, then he does some really dumb things.
I could see there being something similar in Spelljammer or possibly even this new Starfinder, as a way of 'grappling' an enemy ship so it can't escape from a boarding operation or the like. That would assume it's more on the Fantasy side, though. If it's on the Sci-Fi side, it doesn't really make sense (at best, you'd use transporters or boarding pods).
For Starfinder I think Dragonstar material might be slightly more relevant but I would not rule out the possibility for SpellJammer either, although they may alter them to resemble Spider Moon ships rather than classic spellammer.
It was some harpoon-like weapon fired from an impossible angle against a crippled, grounded ship in a tunnel simply for [ba quick 'gotcha' kill to a main character for no reason.[/b]
Didn't make me laugh, but was a definite facepalm moment. Joss does some clever stuff most of the time, then he does some really dumb things.
I could see there being something similar in Spelljammer or possibly even this new Starfinder, as a way of 'grappling' an enemy ship so it can't escape from a boarding operation or the like. That would assume it's more on the Fantasy side, though. If it's on the Sci-Fi side, it doesn't really make sense (at best, you'd use transporters or boarding pods).
there was a reason. Whedon needs to sacrifice a character a film in order to keep his gravy train rolling. You know this.
For Starfinder I think Dragonstar material might be slightly more relevant but I would not rule out the possibility for SpellJammer either, although they may alter them to resemble Spider Moon ships rather than classic spellammer.
SPIDER MOON!
It's pretty much the same issue focused when characters are on a sailing ship. Each character can fulfill a different role, or each player can be given something else to do or dice to roll for a specific task. The "Ship as one giant PC, with players working as a team" is generally how ships WORK.
If you want it to be 'smoother' or 'faster' or whatever, you have to give a specific goal. What do those terms mean to you?
You'll find in most SciFi / Space Opera shows, most of the crew isn't directly contributing to the fight. Oh, sure, Ensign Snuffy is making sure the hyperspace capacitors are properly charged and not damaged, and Sgt Shootem has a marine crew ready to repel boarders, but we don't see that very much. Even the main characters often aren't all directly contributing. What are Princess Leia and C-3PO doing on the Millenium Falcon in a fight? Not much, that's for sure.
So if you're running the game or wanting one that meets your requirements, you'll have to be a bit more specific.
Personally, I'd talk with the players and find out how they would be interested in working together for it.
If everyone wants a specific role, such as engineer and pilot and gunner and whatnot, then the "Giant Team PC" that is the default works fine (though you MIGHT want to add more options. Personally I take the D20 Future AND Star Wars D20 character spaceship roles options and smush them together, so all the side roles have plenty ways to help).
On the other hand, if EVERYONE wants to fight and shoot guns, the DM should consider them getting some type of Drone Ship (small party) or Carrier (large party) and the players planning out their characters accordingly. This way, each person gets to control a ship, even though it isn't THE ship, and everyone gets to fight as normal on the battlemap. Of course, this will slow things down, just as more PC's cause combats to take longer.
This Starfinder reminds me a LOT of the old Dragonstar. I hope it is a spiritual successor to it,...
The drone control isn't a half bad idea actually. It would give all of the players something to do in combat. Would be a cool way to handle it.
I'm hoping for core low level access that doesn't require you to be military or in debt to the local crime lord.
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I'm hoping for core low level access that doesn't require you to be military or in debt to the local crime lord.
Class feature and/or feat access might be options, if they want to keep a "ships are actually pretty expensive" model but have an easy mechanic for it. I'm envisioning something like the level-based advancement of an animal companion, available as either a class feature of a pilot/captain/engineer kind of class or through the use of a feat.
Honestly, price tags for basic ship models are almost beside the point from a gamist perspective. In a space-based setting, ships are either a plot convenience to allow the PCs access to the worlds of the story or, at best, something like a friendly NPC. Whether the PCs should have a free ship at 1st level is really a function of what kind of adventure the GM is planning to run.
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there was a reason. Whedon needs to sacrifice a character a film in order to keep his gravy train rolling. You know this.It was some harpoon-like weapon fired from an impossible angle against a crippled, grounded ship in a tunnel simply for [ba quick 'gotcha' kill to a main character for no reason.[/b]
Didn't make me laugh, but was a definite facepalm moment. Joss does some clever stuff most of the time, then he does some really dumb things.
I could see there being something similar in Spelljammer or possibly even this new Starfinder, as a way of 'grappling' an enemy ship so it can't escape from a boarding operation or the like. That would assume it's more on the Fantasy side, though. If it's on the Sci-Fi side, it doesn't really make sense (at best, you'd use transporters or boarding pods).
If death doesn't involve a character we care about, or hate enough, than it's not a significant death. Serenity was the closeout of a series that had already been canceled out of existence that would never be run again. So yes, I'm all for making bold moves especially when there isn't going to be any tomorrow.
And yes there was a good reason for him to die... it's called being in the middle of a warzone with Axe Crazy Space Berserkers.
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If death doesn't involve a character we care about, or hate enough, than it's not a significant death. Serenity was the closeout of a series that had already been canceled out of existence that would never be run again. So yes, I'm all for making bold moves especially when there isn't going to be any tomorrow.
And yes there was a good reason for him to die... it's called being in the middle of a warzone with Axe Crazy Space Berserkers.
So, lemme get this straight... killing a character randomly in all defiance of pre-established logic is a 'bold move' that makes it 'better' when you don't have to worry about sequels? Gotcha.
There was no good reason for it. It was established that Reavers like to do horrific things to live prey, which is why they don't just blow up ships for no reason. The Serenity had crippled engines, had just faceplanted onto a planet, was in a tunnel facing away from their foes (so good luck getting out), and was clearly going nowhere. So, naturally, it's totally in-character for them to fire a giant harpoon at the cockpit of the ship, rather than just 'robble robble' up in there.
Not only does it not make sense with the characters, it doesn't make PHYSICAL sense, either. Where did that attack from from? How did it get down in the tunnel? Where were the guys who fired it immediately afterword?
It was a cheap gimmick, nothing more.
Honestly, price tags for basic ship models are almost beside the point from a gamist perspective. In a space-based setting, ships are either a plot convenience to allow the PCs access to the worlds of the story or, at best, something like a friendly NPC. Whether the PCs should have a free ship at 1st level is really a function of what kind of adventure the GM is planning to run.
This.
Spaceships aren't a 'giant piece of gear' that has to factor into the players' WBL. They are part of the plot or they are a separate system with its own balance issues (ie: the cost of the vessel relative to the enemy's, or the like).The DM can come up with plenty of ways to give them ships at level 1 if s/he wants to. And if not, they can just be carried around until they get one.
"it's totally in-character for them to fire a giant harpoon"
You are assuming it was fired intentionally at a character. The reaver ship was damaged, but they don't know the state of Serenity, so firing the harpoon to keep Serenity from escaping was a good move, but there also might have only been one or two reavers left alive or maybe they couldn't immediately get to the Serenity.
In any case, the point was to make it so the audience didn't assume everyone else was going to live, especially when River jumped through the hole and tossed the medkit back before being pulled way by reavers.
"it's totally in-character for them to fire a giant harpoon"
You are assuming it was fired intentionally at a character. The reaver ship was damaged, but they don't know the state of Serenity, so firing the harpoon to keep Serenity from escaping was a good move, but there also might have only been one or two reavers left alive or maybe they couldn't immediately get to the Serenity.
In any case, the point was to make it so the audience didn't assume everyone else was going to live, especially when River jumped through the hole and tossed the medkit back before being pulled way by reavers.
Also, they're reavers. They probably just wanted to fire it because they're axe-crazy and firing trees at a space boat is how they get their jollies.
It was my favorite part of the movie.
Go reavers! Wash the spears!
Not just ship combat but combat with various sci fi vehicles like Gundams, Starfighters, Speeder Bikes, or even grav tanks. All of this would be a must.
I didn't realize how much I wanted space mecha/gundam/battlemech until you mentioned it.
I want a class based around this. It would be glorious.
Edit: Now I've imagined a little bit more.
Basically the class would use nanomachines to create a variable battlemech but could also be used to create other machines. I'm imagining it closely mimicking the synthesist summoner mechanically because summon monster and the eidolon rules are actually a pretty good starting point to make something like this happen.
Just replace the magic part with tech.
So about spaceships?
We petition for modular ships that we can combine together into large conglomerate fleet-cities.
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I hope we get lots and lots of starships. One of the frustrations I've had with space-based RPGs is the relative shortage of different ships. I'd love to something akin to Bestiary line; semi-annual sourcebooks just packed with all kinds of spaceships for your PCs to fly or fight against.
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Seconding something I saw earlier on hoping that starship rules interact with multiple characters abilities, so that it doesn't become like Shadowrun, where one player runs the rig (or cybers the deck, or whatever) and the other four stand around holding their cheese for a half hour or more, and eventually wander away bored to play video games or whatever.
To a lesser extent this happens in lots of other games as well, when one character astral projects or has a dream-quest / harrowing or sneaks ahead to scout out an area or has a movement type the others can't replicate (such as flight or an aquatic race), leading to one PC being off doing stuff (and therefore separated from the party), while the rest are essentially stuck in a holding pattern, waiting for Johnny Solo to finish his solo act.
Some of that can be dealt with narratively, by the GM, such as the Star Wars solution of having 'extra' crewmen go man the guns, because TIE fighters! or the Star Trek solution of having extra crewmen run down to engineering and bludgeon a few extra warp factors out of the wee bairns. But I'd prefer for at least some options to be baked in (as *options!*), such as a navigation system that requires a skillmonkey or occult diviner type to be on deck and interfaced with the ship, or a power system that is fueled by the arcane/divine/psychic power of another character, or whatever.
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So, the starship crew. Obviously, the pilot flies the ship and prevents it from getting shot full of holes. And anyone serving as a gunner gets to roll the d20s that send beam weapons, missiles, dumbfire cannon slugs, rail gun bolts, &c. at the bad guys.
But what of the rest of the crew?
Engineers can do things like repair the ship, of course (if only to jury rig the hull or get a weapon powered so it'll fire again) but they're also responsible for jeeping the ship powered. I don't see why they couldn't temporarily divert power from one system to another during combat (say, -2 to attack rolls in exchange for +2 shield bonus to Defense by diverting power to shields, similar to fighting defensively.)
Scientists might be able to use electronic warfare from their bridge stations (acting as Aid Another, grant a Blur effect against incoming missiles, using the ship equivalent of Dirty Trick...)
Security teams (including some particularly daring PCs!) could be set up to repel boarders, and possibly lead boarding parties to sabotage and/or capture enemy vessels. (There's nothing like seeing an enemy vessel suddenly swing about and open fire on her comrades!)
Point is, space combat isn't just (and shouldn't just) be about two or more ships just trading lasers until one of them goes up in a shitty 1960s Star Trek special effect. Everyone can have their role in victory.
EDIT: Oh, and leveling the ship up with the PCs (like the caravan rules) would be awesome too.
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Hard suits so you can get launched over and cut into their hull and start fighting dudes.
There's an encounter that I'm planning for a current scifi Pathfinder game. Basically there's a weapon that launches zombies with vibro-blades on for hands at ships. I'm still sorting out how to handle that exactly but I loved the idea of launching undead at ships.
Hope the rules allow for scalability on the space opera to hard sci-fi starship design development, the magic to technology ratio, and it includes starship construction rules.
Hard suits so you can get launched over and cut into their hull and start fighting dudes.
There's an encounter that I'm planning for a current scifi Pathfinder game. Basically there's a weapon that launches zombies with vibro-blades on for hands at ships. I'm still sorting out how to handle that exactly but I loved the idea of launching undead at ships.
Necrocrafts my friend, Necrocrafts.
We can cut you a deal...
Actually come to think of it, Starfinder should make Necrocrafts the default mindless undead.
I want Moya, Talyn, and Lo'la as options for ships.
I think for ships, there are a couple of things I'd like to see. And they all mesh together.
1. Different Systems on a Ship: A ship is more than just a hunk of metal with guns that goes lightspeed. It has several systems that keeps it running and the crew alive. I'd like this to be reflected, even just basically. Weapons, life support, engines, shields, communications. These are all ideas of the different systems you'd see.
2. Hit Locations: You see it all the time in Star Trek and can actually do it in Homeworld. Instead of just attacking the ship as a whole, you target certain parts of it. Maybe target the engine to get it to stop, or attack weapon systems to stop it from firing, or attacking life support. Of course, if you just want to blow up the ship, then you can just attack it as normal. I think this would add some more nuance in the game, especially if you want to capture a ship rather than blow it up.
3. Diverting power: Another thing you see in Star Trek. Powering down weapons to make your shield stronger, or putting everything into engines to get away quicker. This would be a cool thing to add for starships and really make it stand out from normal combat.
If death doesn't involve a character we care about, or hate enough, than it's not a significant death. Serenity was the closeout of a series that had already been canceled out of existence that would never be run again. So yes, I'm all for making bold moves especially when there isn't going to be any tomorrow.
And yes there was a good reason for him to die... it's called being in the middle of a warzone with Axe Crazy Space Berserkers.
So, lemme get this straight... killing a character randomly in all defiance of pre-established logic is a 'bold move' that makes it 'better' when you don't have to worry about sequels? Gotcha.
There was no good reason for it. It was established that Reavers like to do horrific things to live prey, which is why they don't just blow up ships for no reason. The Serenity had crippled engines, had just faceplanted onto a planet, was in a tunnel facing away from their foes (so good luck getting out), and was clearly going nowhere. So, naturally, it's totally in-character for them to fire a giant harpoon at the cockpit of the ship, rather than just 'robble robble' up in there.
Not only does it not make sense with the characters, it doesn't make PHYSICAL sense, either. Where did that attack from from? How did it get down in the tunnel? Where were the guys who fired it immediately afterword?
It was a cheap gimmick, nothing more.
Honestly, price tags for basic ship models are almost beside the point from a gamist perspective. In a space-based setting, ships are either a plot convenience to allow the PCs access to the worlds of the story or, at best, something like a friendly NPC. Whether the PCs should have a free ship at 1st level is really a function of what kind of adventure the GM is planning to run.This.
Spaceships aren't a 'giant piece of gear' that has to factor into the players' WBL. They are part of the plot or they are a separate system with its own balance issues...
Oh man, then you must hate "Game of Thrones."
I hope we get lots and lots of starships. One of the frustrations I've had with space-based RPGs is the relative shortage of different ships. I'd love to something akin to Bestiary line; semi-annual sourcebooks just packed with all kinds of spaceships for your PCs to fly or fight against.
I agree completely, and not just because I happen to have dozens of ships ready to go :)
Honestly though, I've been waiting for this for a long time and can't wait to see how it comes out!
The idea of a 'Q-Gun' -- a traditional chemical gun ^a lot of magnitude (Dyson push-plate drive comes to mind) that can punch through armor and shields but has a long recharge and/or limited uses would be amazing.
How about starship design rules? Star wars the first d20 version had an awesome book for designing and modifying starships. I even used it as a base for one of my earlier starship minis games.