Ultimate Equipment update

[Oddman80]

I remember being shocked by how drastic a price change they had made the Mask of Stoney Demeanor a few month ago. Yes - it had been underpriced, but it was a sweet and powerful item. And due to their affordability, on numerous occasions had worked them into my vharacter builds. When the price change occurred, with the exception of one character (a really shady Halfling Filcher Rogue) it no longer made sense to have the item. But the item stil did the thing I had grown to love. Which makes sense - as there was never any confusion as to what the item did in the first place.

So it is peculiar that Paizo would take such a different approach for all of the other items in Ultimate Equipment. Why change the items when nobody was confused about the items. The only complaint by GNs was that the items were too cheap for what they did. So why not just adjust the price?

For a number of these items, they changed what the items do so drastically, that there are other, cheaper/better items out there that do the same thing.

What was done here would be the equivalent of Tesla first putting their car on the market for the same price as a Dodge Dart. Everyone wil pick the Tesla - it's unbelievably better at that price point. But then, when Tesla was made aware of this, rather than adjusting the price of their awesome vehicle that people wanted, they instead replaced each of their amazing vehicles with a foot powered beach surrey.
WTF!?!

[Azten]

Fortification armor is literally better now. As is the Buffering Cap. There's no reason to have the Jingasa anymore.

[wraithstrike]

Kalindlara wrote:

If you're not likely to be critically hit more than once per day, doesn't that effectively translate to immunity to critical hits? What's the appropriate price point for an item that provides that immunity without any real competition in its slot?

Pretty much. Now I have seen multiple crits at higher levels, but even then it is rare for one player to take more than one crit a day. I haven't sat down and come to a definite better solution, but maybe limiting the crits to 1 per week might work, or maybe dropping it to a 50% or 75% chance to avoid the crit.

Paying 5000 for a +1 deflection bonus is not the answer though when better items fit that slot.

[Snowblind]

wraithstrike wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

If you're not likely to be critically hit more than once per day, doesn't that effectively translate to immunity to critical hits? What's the appropriate price point for an item that provides that immunity without any real competition in its slot?

Pretty much. Now I have seen multiple crits at higher levels, but even then it is rare for one player to take more than one crit a day. I haven't sat down and come to a definite better solution, but maybe limiting the crits to 1 per week might work, or maybe dropping it to a 50% or 75% chance to avoid the crit.

Paying 5000 for a +1 deflection bonus is not the answer though when better items fit that slot.

1/day convert the extra damage from a crit/sneak attack to non-lethal?

[Seraphimpunk]

I've got an issue with the wear-for-24-hours-items.

I'd rather have seen all of the wear-for-24-hour-first items be categorized as "wearable lesser -cursed" items. Give them a game mechanic descriptor, allow them as the only cursed items that are commonly traded in PFS. The benefit: You can put them on and gain their benefit immediately, but you can't remove them for 24hrs without a remove curse. That at least front-loads the utility and wonder, with the caveat that you won't be able to gear-swap without wasting spells. It stops the gear swapping nonsense that creeps in from ( in generations past ) things like 3.5's Belt of Battle.

I'm sure there were plenty of items you had to wear 24hrs to get a benefit from before, but now there's a lot that have no benefit whatsoever until you've worn them for 24 hrs. At least with headbands of vast intelligence, you get a benefit within the first day.
these items that you have to wear for a day before you can use their magic, i's just... underwhelming. It fun-deflating too, to find them as part of loot in game now: "great, found an item i like! awww, can't use it at all this scenario because we don't have 24hrs to rest". womp womp.

[Zaister]

Azten wrote:

Fortification armor is literally better now. As is the Buffering Cap. There's no reason to have the Jingasa anymore.

Which in my mind is a much better mechanic than there being no reason NOT to have it.

[Shisumo]

I don't get the sturm und drang over brawling armor. A set of +1 brawling armor and an amulet of mighty fists +1 together are 20K, and you're getting the same +3 to attack and damage that you'd be getting with a +3 weapon that's 18K. Upgrading to a +2 amulet puts your total cost at 32K, which is exactly what a +4 weapon will cost you. It's still the best deal in the game for unarmed attack and damage, and self-evidently way too cheap before.

[wraithstrike]

Snowblind wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

If you're not likely to be critically hit more than once per day, doesn't that effectively translate to immunity to critical hits? What's the appropriate price point for an item that provides that immunity without any real competition in its slot?

Pretty much. Now I have seen multiple crits at higher levels, but even then it is rare for one player to take more than one crit a day. I haven't sat down and come to a definite better solution, but maybe limiting the crits to 1 per week might work, or maybe dropping it to a 50% or 75% chance to avoid the crit.

Paying 5000 for a +1 deflection bonus is not the answer though when better items fit that slot.

1/day convert the extra damage from a crit/sneak attack to non-lethal?

That would not be bad, but another item already does that.

[CraziFuzzy]

Well at least the fixed the prices of the Mithral Pot and Mithral Waffle Iron.

[Rysky]

CraziFuzzy wrote:

Well at least the fixed the prices of the Mithral Pot and Mithral Waffle Iron.

*sniff*

But now it'll take even longer before my Gnoll can make awesome waffles...

[Snowblind]

Rysky wrote:

CraziFuzzy wrote:

Well at least the fixed the prices of the Mithral Pot and Mithral Waffle Iron.

*sniff*

But now it'll take even longer before my Gnoll can make awesome waffles...

I lolled at those price tweaks.

"Jingasa? That's a nerfin'."
"Quickrunner's Shirt? That's a nerfin'."
"Cap of the free thinker? That's a nerfin'."

"Mithril Waffle Iron?"

"You better believe that's a nerfin'."

I get why*, but it is still mildly absurd.

*Whoever wrote it up the first time around screwed up the pricing - the special material numbers say it should cost double what it was listed.

[Charlie Bell]

CraziFuzzy wrote:

Well at least the fixed the prices of the Mithral Pot and Mithral Waffle Iron.

Ninja'd so hard. That mithral waffle iron has really caused some serious disruption in my game.

:p

[CraziFuzzy]

Right, I understand WHY they fixed the mithral numbers, and I am super glad they did, because it has always been brought up in the argument about how to price mithral items (using original weight or mithral weight). At least now it's consistent.

It's still funny to bring up in this hate-thread though...

[MeanMutton]

TheJack388 wrote:

And the most annoying one... Quick Runners Shirt. As others have mentioned, this means the shirt is now almost worthless for a martial character, with a few niche uses for a spellcaster (who are already by far the most powerful characters and don't need more stuff). Just... Why? What about the shirt offended you so that you destroyed any useability it once had?

Okay, I get the part with the Quick Runner's Shirt where you can't just keep swapping them off. That seemed like a reasonable fix. But now you can't use it to get a move action before your full attack? That's just... yeah... worthless.

[Rysky]

Charlie Bell wrote:

CraziFuzzy wrote:

Well at least the fixed the prices of the Mithral Pot and Mithral Waffle Iron.

Ninja'd so hard. That mithral waffle iron has really caused some serious disruption in my game.

:p

*grumble* Stupid improvised weapon users ruining it for the waffle lovers *grumble*

[Firewarrior44]

I would have preferred in many cases that they just adjusted the price to be more reflective of the items power opposed to effectively removing that option from the game.

I also wish there was a change log / per-errata version of the rules available for reference, even if the pdf's just came in print editions (first printing, second printing etc), so if I want to play the unchanged version I don't need to dig through the internet looking for the old version of the rules.

[Firewarrior44]

Magical wealth = power. Magical wealth has an opportunity cost. A player is unlikely to choose to squander limited resources (Gold and Item Slots) on options which are not beneficial to them in some way. That benefit can be weighed against other Items.

[Addem Up]

Well, looks like it's time to update my personal houserules again.

[SheepishEidolon]

Hmm, I will focus on armor and weapon properties, because that's what I care about most:

Benevolent armor (2,000 gp -> +1)
* +1 & benevolent: formerly 3k, now 4k
* ...
* +5 & benevolent: formerly 27k, now 36k
* ...
* +5 & bonuses worth +5 & benevolent: formerly 102k, now no longer possible
* bottom line: slightly impacts aid another builds, but it's still doable

Brawling armor (+1 -> +3)
* +2 unarmed damage equals a feat (compare to Weapon Specialization)
* +2 unarmed attack bonus equals two feats (compare to Weapon Focus)
* +2 on grapple checks equals half a feat (compare to Improved Grapple)
* counting unarmed as magic equals half a feat (compare to Eldritch Claws)
* bottom line: new price is justified

Spell storing
* clarification

Conductive (multiple uses per round via multiple weapons -> no more)
* avoids nukes with 2 (or more) conductive weapons
* bottom line: does its little contribution to fight rocket tag

Courageous (boosts morale bonuses -> boosts morale bonuses on fear)
* bottom line: umm, anybody really considered +x on rage str & con bonuses fitting for a +1 property?

Cunning (+2 confirmation -> +4 / +6)
* power equals a feat now (compare to Critical Focus)
* 5 ranks can be achieved sooner than the feat (which needs BAB 9)
* +6 bonus comes pretty late
* bottom line: now upgraded to a reasonable choice

Huntsman
* clarification

Earthenflail
* clarification

Screaming Bolt (permanently shaken -> 1 round)
* bottom line: now in line with spells and other class abilities

So while I get the complaints about favourite toys being weakened, in average these errata look like an improvement.

[j b 200]

Bracers of Falcon's Aim was one of the best items in the game. +1 on all bow attacks, that stacks with everything AND boost to crit range OR multiplier. And all that for just 4000gp? WAY too cheap and WAY too good.

Is it expensive for a wand? you bet. Is it still pretty good, particularly for a class that can't actually use that wand? You bet.

If a new item completely surpasses an existing one it is too good. This was cheaper than Bracers of Archery but was clearly better. This NEEDED a nerf.

Same with the Cap of the Free Thinker. For 12k you got to reroll every single time v.s. Improved Iron Will (which requires 2 feats) to let you do it once per day. Changing it to once per day really helps to bring it's power level in line with other existing abilities. Is it expensive? Maybe, but head slot is seriously under utilized so people will still take it.

[KainPen]

Braces of Falcon Aim did not need a nerf they need a reasonable price increase to some where around the tune of 10K-25K

Anyone can use a wand with UMD

Problem with the cap of the free thinker is not the price it is that all those feats and ability that let your re-roll once a day are not even worth a feat. They are worth about half a feat or back ground trait. they are utterly useless but a small fraction of the time. Same way the original iron will in 3.5 was not worth the feat. now it is acceptable as a feat, works because pathfinder double the number of feats. Those re roll feats and ability should do exactly what the hat was doing. All day take the better roll. 5th edition does this with no problems with it advantage system.

This was a really bad nerf all the way around. as other pointed out Pathfinder is going to extreme side of nerfing instead of finding a middle ground.

bracers fix option should have been several times a day as swift action, or increase the price.

Brawling armor make it +2 mod for it to be worth a +3 mod it should work on all armor types not just light.

Cap increase the price a bit more.

quick runner shirt all it needed was the 24 hour bit at it's current cost. to prevent item swamping. It was already limited to once a day and swift action. Basically all it was did was allow you to change swift action into a move action limited to movement. which is funny because if you use unchained action ECO, it was totally use item. because swift,move and standard action are interchangeable. Which is a vastly better action system.

I am surprised boot of the cat did not get nerf also. take 20 point of damage from falling 20000+ feet and land on my feet for it's cost in gold. lol

[Blackwaltzomega]

The Quick Runner's Shirt is completely balanced with the attuning rule and NOTHING ELSE changed. Adding the bit about it also ending your turn to use it turns it from a highly useful 1/day ace in the hole for TWFers and other melee types that benefited from an extra move once per day into a shirt pretty much nobody would use except for the odd caster that wants to cover a lot of ground while casting a spell. As the only issue with the shirt was people carrying a couple dozen and cycling between them, making it so you have to wear the shirt all day to get its power completely closed off all abuses of the shirt. I see no reason it needed to be punished further.

Bracers are strong, but could easily be fixed with a price hike. Making them a crappy reusable scroll just shunts them into the pile of magical items not worth your gold.

I honestly felt the Gloves of Recon were fine as they were; it's a total of one minute per day, and most of the time it's peeking through a door, which is going to qualify either way. Most of the time dungeon walls are not so thin someone can peek through them with the gloves.

The Feather Step Slippers were completely fine in their original form and unlikely to be used at all now, since they're items that are only relevant in combat and someone that was using them before is not going to be the type to drop a standard action on a brief self-buff for one combat.

Brawling Armor would bother me less if it wasn't for the fact that only two classes in the game really USE Light Armor and Unarmed Strikes unless you count the Sohei Monk, and y'know, I don't really appreciate that it feels like this Errata has a serious axe to grind with a lot of the magical items that my friend's Brawler liked to use.

The Jiangsha would have been fine with a price hike; its' an ability worth paying more gold for, but now it's basically worth nothing if you have rings or automatic bonus progression. An item that does something only once, ever, isn't really that great.

Tremorsense out to five feet isn't very useful at all. As I mentioned before, a sense that only activates when something is literally RIGHT NEXT TO YOU might as well not exist most of the time, and it certainly shouldn't be as expensive as +3 Full Plate.

I'm really not sure what purpose the Ring Of Ferocious Action going from five charges to be used whenever you were staggered to one use per day and only if you were staggered BY AN ATTACK was. You can't even choose to activate it so if you're in a dungeon with multiple things that can stagger you and a small fry does it you don't have the option to save it for when you're against the big boss. As the only rules loophole for the ring that I know of is the Twist Away exploit THAT WAS ALREADY FIXED IN THE ACG ERRATA, this is punishing a magical item further after you already removed its only real "trick." The thing is massively overpriced for what it does now.

[Rysky]

Blackwaltzomega wrote:

The Jiangsha would have been fine with a price hike; its' an ability worth paying more gold for, but now it's basically worth nothing if you have rings or automatic bonus progression. An item that does something only once, ever, isn't really that great.

The makers of potions, scrolls, and other alchemicals would like to have words with you.

[Azten]

Those are all useful magic items though.

[Rysky]

And a 100% chance to negate a critical hit once isn't?

[Wonderstell]

j b 200 wrote:

Bracers of Falcon's Aim was one of the best items in the game. +1 on all bow attacks, that stacks with everything AND boost to crit range OR multiplier. And all that for just 4000gp? WAY too cheap and WAY too good.

Is it expensive for a wand? you bet. Is it still pretty good, particularly for a class that can't actually use that wand? You bet.

If a new item completely surpasses an existing one it is too good. This was cheaper than Bracers of Archery but was clearly better. This NEEDED a nerf.

Agreed. Bracer's of Falcon's Aim was one of the most stupidly powerful items in the game. But I wouldn't compare them to Bracers of Archery, since that item is stupidly overpriced.

Falcon's Aim completely surpassed Archery since Archery is priced with the Weapon Proficiency granting power in mind, and not the bonus to hit. (And also because Falcon's Aim was OP)

A Cracked Pale Green Prism grants a +1 Competence bonus to Attack for 4000 gp, while the lesser Archery grants the same bonus for 5000 gp. Ioun Stones are slotless, and have a 2x multiplier.

*****

So for someone who already has proficiency with bows, the Archery bracers has a 150% increase in price since a +1 competence bonus to Attack should only have a price of 2000 gp.

And the greater version is a nightmare.

+2 Competence to Attack and +1 to Damage should have a price of 11,000 gp*, but it is priced at over twice the calculated price.

*(2^2 x 2000 + 1.5 x 2000)

If a slotless item with the same effect as a slotted one has a lower market price, that's when you know the slotted item is doomed to be completely surpassed.

*****

TL;DR

Lesser Bracers of Archery were never meant for archers.

Greater Bracers of Archery were meant for archers, but not worth it.

Bracers of Falcon's Aim were meant for archers, too good, and now they're not worth it.

[Nicos]

Rysky wrote:

And a 100% chance to negate a critical hit once isn't?

No, at 5000 gp it is not.