Hello,
I need some help form the infinite wisdom of this board. I am going to be playing in a homebrew games coming up soon and the DM has stressed that it is going to be a 40/60 split between social/ skill stuff and combat. I really want to make a knight like character. Here are the specifics
+ Decent Skills
+ Medium- Heavy Armor
+ I will be using a bastard sword for the versatility for 2-hand or 1 hand and shield- or something similar (DM GAVE FREE PROFICENCY IN BASTARD SWORD)
+ 25 pt buy
+ Level 5
+ Using Inherent bonus system
+ Party consists of an unchained summoner (social skills, big azazta edilon), A Unchained rogue going into crimson assassin, A unchained rogue that is focusing in alchemical stuff, A ranged inquisitor using guns, and a Divine bloodline sorcerer.
What would you guys do if you were in this game and wanted to make a knight? As of right now I made a Inquisitor (Sanctified Slayer) with the conversion domain, but with the addition of the other inquisitor I wanted to explore some other options.
Tl;DR- I want a knight like character with decent skills and good combat contribution. Think Jaimie Lannister
Any one handed weapon other than the rapier can be used either one or two handed. One point of average damage over the longsword is not worth a feat by any stretch of the imagination. Not even a half-elf's skill focus. I suppose a tengu may as well go for it.
The most knight-ish class is cavalier. That gives 4+int skill points with all social skills as class skills. A human using the favored class bonus for skills gets another 2.
Another option is the samurai alternate class. They lose no occidental weapon proficiencies and the only other oriental reference is in Weapon Expertise. If you take weapon expertise in longbow and use normal CRB equipment there's nothing to mark out that you're using a nominally oriental class. If you like resolve more than tactician there's no reason you can't use the samurai class for a knight.
I was considering a Cavalier, I have never really made one ( I did have a samurai a while back). I agree with you about the feat cost of bastard sword, luckily my DM just let me be proficient with it, but I definitely see your point!
Paladins, orcales, and slayer also work pretty much fine. It really depends on what you like more.
I have never gotten into oracles, any suggested build? Paladins dont really have the skills that I would like and slayers just dont blow my skirt up. Any build suggestions that make the interesting?
Avenger Vigilante. Great skill set, full bab, vigilante talents give you powerful combat options, social talents that let you have some narrative power, and there is literately nothing stopping you from ignoring the dual identity thing. You can use all of your vigilante talents and abilities in your social identity. Or you could pull a Richard I from Ivanhoe and create a "black knight" persona (as in a knight with a black or blank shield and heraldry, not a villain) to pall go places incognito.
Well, you said skilled knight type, what type of skills? If you mean social, I would suggest a daring champion cavalier, if you will want high cha anyhow, the get some pay off from the swash feature added to the DC cabalier, and your horse won't be lonely in the stable.
Or if you think knights can sing, bard or skald would be great for skills, more Rhaegyar than Jaimie though...
Looking at the group you lay out, I see stealth/ infiltration skills covered, social skills, and some knowkedge type stuff. Do you think you will need wilderness skills? If so a steel blooded celestial or destined bloodrager maybe? Just think of the bloodrage as a sort of "combat focus" rather than berserk, and voila! You have wilderness skills on your list, 4 points a level base, and the utility of a few spells. And you can seriously kick butt.
Four key questions:
1. How much magic do you see the character using? None/Minor/Medium/Lots?
2. What sources are available?
3. What race?
4. How complex do you want this to go?
For a 'knight' with just a touch of magic, I would probably look at either a Cavalier with 1 level of Oracle or some kind of Fighter using 4 levels of Warpriest. But there's a billion ways to go with it; you can make an effective 'knight' out of a Barbarian/Wizard type character with major spellcasting power if you want to.
One build concept I've been looking at for a frontline melee character lately is combining a one-handed weapon with unarmed strike and claw attack; doing it with a bastard sword that switched between two handed single attacks and one-handed for two-weapon full attack would work nicely, but I have no idea if that's a bit more exotic that your concept.
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I'd suggest Paladin - but that's not at all like Jaime Lannister. :P
Seems like it'd fit the group pretty well since you don't have a true front-liner, and the rogue would probably like a flanking buddy besides the eidolon.
They're a bit low on skills, but it looks like the group has skills covered. The summoner might need help on the social side since they don't have good skill-points. Plus they don't get any social as class skills.
Plus - paladins are a bit MAD, and with a 25pt buy you should probably lean towards MAD classes.
Though... much depends upon how your GM feels about Paladins. :P
Well, you said skilled knight type, what type of skills? If you mean social, I would suggest a daring champion cavalier, if you will want high cha anyhow, the get some pay off from the swash feature added to the DC cabalier, and your horse won't be lonely in the stable.
Or if you think knights can sing, bard or skald would be great for skills, more Rhaegyar than Jaimie though...
Looking at the group you lay out, I see stealth/ infiltration skills covered, social skills, and some knowkedge type stuff. Do you think you will need wilderness skills? If so a steel blooded celestial or destined bloodrager maybe? Just think of the bloodrage as a sort of "combat focus" rather than berserk, and voila! You have wilderness skills on your list, 4 points a level base, and the utility of a few spells. And you can seriously kick butt.
Skills wise I am looking to be able to participate in skill like challenges. The game is going to have a decent amount of political intrigue, minor exploration. Bloodrager is an interesting idea, and you suggested a cavalier which others in the thread have already. Lots to ponder that is for sure. I am not sure How I feel about the rage mechanic for flavor reasons, but re-flavoring is always an option.
Avenger Vigilante. Great skill set, full bab, vigilante talents give you powerful combat options, social talents that let you have some narrative power, and there is literately nothing stopping you from ignoring the dual identity thing. You can use all of your vigilante talents and abilities in your social identity. Or you could pull a Richard I from Ivanhoe and create a "black knight" persona (as in a knight with a black or blank shield and heraldry, not a villain) to pall go places incognito.
I haven't looked at the Vigilante, good catch. I will investigate further, any build advice?
Four key questions:
1. How much magic do you see the character using? None/Minor/Medium/Lots?
2. What sources are available?
3. What race?
4. How complex do you want this to go?For a 'knight' with just a touch of magic, I would probably look at either a Cavalier with 1 level of Oracle or some kind of Fighter using 4 levels of Warpriest. But there's a billion ways to go with it; you can make an effective 'knight' out of a Barbarian/Wizard type character with major spellcasting power if you want to.
One build concept I've been looking at for a frontline melee character lately is combining a one-handed weapon with unarmed strike and claw attack; doing it with a bastard sword that switched between two handed single attacks and one-handed for two-weapon full attack would work nicely, but I have no idea if that's a bit more exotic that your concept.
1. Background of character is he was a squire, his lord died defending a village that was in front of a tactical point that the government abandoned in favor in protecting the point. He was given a field commission as Knight because of his service defending the village and his sway with the people he was given a very minor knighthood. He is called by many "The Peasant Knight". So maybe some magic (like my first inquisitor incarnation) but I dont know if a full caster really fits. Also we need a little front line.
2. Everything but 3rd party (maybe the Path of War Stuff if I could convince my GM)
3. Not real picky, i usually go to human bc of the versatility
4. I am all about complex, so fire away
Avenger Vigilante. Great skill set, full bab, vigilante talents give you powerful combat options, social talents that let you have some narrative power, and there is literately nothing stopping you from ignoring the dual identity thing. You can use all of your vigilante talents and abilities in your social identity. Or you could pull a Richard I from Ivanhoe and create a "black knight" persona (as in a knight with a black or blank shield and heraldry, not a villain) to pall go places incognito.I haven't looked at the Vigilante, good catch. I will investigate further, any build advice?
I would definitely go Avenger as your specialization for a Knight, brings you up to full BAB and gives you access to some nice talents. Decide if you want to primarily use your sword two handed or one handed, if two handed take Shield of Blades. You get power attack as a bonus feat, and get a shield bonus equal to your power attack penalty as long as you actually take that penalty on at least one attack and are use strength to damage.
If one handed, shield of fury. That nets you improved shield bash, and from 6th level onward you count as having TWF when you wield a weapon and shield, and can take other feats in the TWF tree without needing to meet the dex requirements.
Signature weapon is weapon focus+weapon spec at eight, mad rush is pounce at the cost of -4 AC, close the gap lets you choose one foe within 20 feat and ignore their AoOs and ignore the -2 AC penalty for charging them. Really, all the vigilante talents are very nice.
On the social side, the renown talent and the talents that build off it are thematic, and pretty okay. Social Grace is awesome, a straight +4 to any one Int Wis or Cha based skill you like, save UMD and Perception. You get to choose an additional skill every 4 levels as well. Feign innocence could be useful in the world of courtly intrigue as well.
Your main weakness are a D8 hit die and poor fort save. However, as you can get several feats through you talents, often with a bonus, you can afford to grab toughness and great fortitude.
I'd probably go with something like Human Str 16 (after racial) Dex 14 con 14 int 13 wis 12 cha 14
+1 to Str from level ups.
Feats: Great Fortitude, Toughness, Iron Will, Heavy Armor Proficiency
Social Talents: Renown, Social Grace: Sense Motive and Diplomacy, Celebrity Perks
Vigilante Talents: Shield of Blades, Signature Weapon (Bastard Sword)
If I knew the game was going to 16 and above, I'd trade HAP for Improved Initiative, and put off Signature Weapon for Heavy Training. Eventually I'd take Armored Skin and Speed of Shadows and have a 50 ft move speed in full plate. 10th and 12th level would be Close the Gap and Mad Rush respectively either way.
Cool Build. I like the social talents and you are right those vigilante talents are nice. It seems to me thought the damage is a little low, given there are no class mechanics to give you a boost when need (Bane, Challenge, Smite Evil, ect.)
You could play him as an Aasimar with the Scion of Humanity racial alternative who didn't/doesn't know that he has angelic blood until some powers start to manifest. Maybe as a Daring Champion Cavalier wielding bastard sword and buckler ~
Oracular Champion
Dual-Cursed Oracle of Lore 1, Daring Champion Cavalier of the Dragon
Aasimar (Deathless Spirit, Scion of Humanity): 16STR+, 10DEX, 12CON, 12INT, 7/9WIS, 16/18CHA
Traits: Irrepressible, Reactionary
1C. Noble Scion (of War)
2O. *Revelation: Sidestep Secret* / *Curses: Tongues(Celestial) and Haunted*
3C. Extra Revelation: Misfortune
4C.
5C. *Panache, Deeds: Precise Strike, Dodging Panache, Swashbuckler Initiative* / Slashing Grace: Bastard Sword
6C.
7C. Heavenly Radiance: Wandering Star Motes / +F: Power Attack
8C.
9C. Heavenly Radiance: Sunbeam
The Heavenly Radiance Aasimar power grants you a 'spells known list' of SLAs, and it also grants you more 'spells per day' each time you take it. Since you'll have 18+ charisma with a headband, your SLAs will be pretty effective - but the big trick here is that you can use the Misfortune Revelation power to force an enemy to reroll a saving throw with an immediate action, making your handful of SLAs per day very strong. Wandering Start Motes and "one-shot" Sunbeam are really first-rate spells, so this 'secret-of-the-blood' spellcasting is far from a sideshow thing. You also get just a little level 1 Oracle Spellcasting for utility.
Noble Scion of War and Sidestep Secret mean that you can use your charisma in place of your dexterity for both initiative and dodge AC. High dodge AC plus a mithral breastplate keeps you well-armored and mobile.
Daring Champion Cavalier trades away the mounted stuff for a ton of Swashbuckler benefits which will work in a mithral breastplate. Using a bastard sword in one hand will trigger Precise Strike for major bonus damage, and you can use a buckler and a Swordmaster's Flair in your other hand - Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf grants you +5ft reach with your sword when wielded in one hand. You've also got things like Nimble and, of course, Cavalier abilities like teamwork stuff and Order of the Dragon Challenge.
For skills, you've got +5 from class and INT. Social skills are very strong due to charisma, class skills and +2 Diplomacy from Aasimar. Lore Oracle adds appraise, spellcraft and all knowledges to your class skills.
So you've got a secretly-Aasimar character that's strong and charismatic, wields a bastard sword with swashbuckling style and supernatural grace, and can throw powerful spell-like abilities.
Cool Build. I like the social talents and you are right those vigilante talents are nice. It seems to me thought the damage is a little low, given there are no class mechanics to give you a boost when need (Bane, Challenge, Smite Evil, ect.)
True, the Avenger Vigilante doesn't have the inbuilt damage boosting that other classes get (unless you're using fists or fineness). However, you're still a Full BAB class who can get pounce. You still lose out to the Barbarian in that regard, but you get social abilities that she doesn't.
Under ideal circumstances a Paladin or Cavalier or even a Fighter will out damage you, but you still do respectable damage. And once you hit level 12 you can deal with non-ideal circumstances much better than they can.
You could play him as an Aasimar with the Scion of Humanity racial alternative who didn't/doesn't know that he has angelic blood until some powers start to manifest. Maybe as a Daring Champion Cavalier wielding bastard sword and buckler ~
Oracular Champion
Dual-Cursed Oracle of Lore 1, Daring Champion Cavalier of the Dragon
Aasimar (Deathless Spirit, Scion of Humanity): 16STR+, 10DEX, 12CON, 12INT, 7/9WIS, 16/18CHA
Traits: Irrepressible, Reactionary1C. Noble Scion (of War)
2O. *Revelation: Sidestep Secret* / *Curses: Tongues(Celestial) and Haunted*
3C. Extra Revelation: Misfortune
4C.
5C. *Panache, Deeds: Precise Strike, Dodging Panache, Swashbuckler Initiative* / Slashing Grace: Bastard Sword
6C.
7C. Heavenly Radiance: Wandering Star Motes / +F: Power Attack
8C.
9C. Heavenly Radiance: Sunbeam
That is a cool build. I didn't even know of the heavenly radiance feat. Sadly it seems my DM would rather me shy away from tiefling/Aasimar for his setting. I will remember this build though bc it is very interesting
Cool Build. I like the social talents and you are right those vigilante talents are nice. It seems to me thought the damage is a little low, given there are no class mechanics to give you a boost when need (Bane, Challenge, Smite Evil, ect.)True, the Avenger Vigilante doesn't have the inbuilt damage boosting that other classes get (unless you're using fists or fineness). However, you're still a Full BAB class who can get pounce. You still lose out to the Barbarian in that regard, but you get social abilities that she doesn't.
Under ideal circumstances a Paladin or Cavalier or even a Fighter will out damage you, but you still do respectable damage. And once you hit level 12 you can deal with non-ideal circumstances much better than they can.
you are right, the Vigilante does get more social skills and some cool stuff at later levels. I just wonder if i want to wait that long ;-)
That is a cool build. I didn't even know of the heavenly radiance feat. Sadly it seems my DM would rather me shy away from tiefling/Aasimar for his setting. I will remember this build though bc it is very interesting...
You could simply run the same build as a Dual Talent Human (with stats re-arranged a bit) and just replace the Heavenly Radiance feats with something else, though that does of course drop the whole spellcasting angle.
I could post a rather strange and potent Eldritch Knight based on Strength Patron Witch that goes two-weapon with sword and unarmed strike and uses mithral medium armor plus Barkskin plus an optional shield for AC. You can use the Witch's claw attack with it for a bit of extra punch, but you don't need to if that doesn't fit the character; it's not much different without it. Either way, it's a medium armor sword-and-fist warrior with supernatural strength, toughness and powers - combat hexes don't work well for a multiclass Witch, but hexes like Disguise, Tongues and Flight on the other hand...