same with the Psychometrist
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Great guide!
The Imp. Familiar thing with the Magical Child is good to know. I thought you'd have to wait until 9 to get your Mauler back!
Agreed on most points. The Avenger is really solid; Warlock and Mounted Fury are close behind. Psychometrist is an interesting way to make a full-BAB counterfeit mage (I wish it had good Fort for Item Mastery Feats).
Gotta weigh in on the Cabalist,though: I think it's more of a green-yellow.
Cabalist strikes me as one of those 'good on paper, bad in practice' trap archetypes. The spell list is great for save-or-suck spells and you get neat abilities to help with DCs, but...disables get weaker as the combat drags on. Every round you spend trying to apply bleed is one round the enemy could have been unconscious or asleep or whatever. You either ignore your class abilities and try to push through 6-level-spellcasting DCs, or you reduce your spells' effectiveness by walking in and poking somebody. Both options are pretty ugly.
The second major problem with the Cabalist is the spell list. The Witch spell list is downright terrible at supporting a melee caster. It doesn't even have invisibility! You know who could use all the invisibility he can get because of his core class mechanic? The Cabalist! :D
Has anyone else noticed that all the Vigilante talents the Wildsoul archetype replaces are the exact Vigilante talents that any of the spellcasting archetypes do not replace?
I think Paizo did that on purpose.
I have! Unfortunately, all of the casting archetypes besides Magical Child alter talents by adding new talents. There's no real precedent for that to be the case, but it is.
Not that it matters even if you are a Magical Child because of the most pointless words ever in an archetype.
This alters vigilante specialization and replaces the vigilante talents gained at 2nd, 6th, 12th, and 18th levels.
My GM and I tend to ignore pointless words like that.
(Because seriously, how does it really alter any part of Vigilante Specialization?)
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My GM and I tend to ignore pointless words like that.
(Because seriously, how does it really alter any part of Vigilante Specialization?)
Because of a silly line of text describing it as part of Vigilante Specialization because you pick it at the same time.
Yea.
It's dumb.
My GM and I tend to ignore pointless words like that.
(Because seriously, how does it really alter any part of Vigilante Specialization?)
Because of a silly line of text describing it as part of Vigilante Specialization because you pick it at the same time.
Yea.
It's dumb.
Hence the reason we ignore it.
Rejoice! The guide has been updated to include content from Spymaster's Handbook (don't worry Paizo, I followed the rules). In this update: Teisatsu has done to base Stalker what ninja did to rogue; Beast Boy joins the party; Harriet Tubman makes a cameo, because not everyone who leads a double life is a super hero; and I've added a table of contents sidebar. Thanks to N. Jolly for the recommendation.
I think, though I have not seen Spymaster, you might've messed up in Bestial Identity. Seamless Disguise only applies to appearing as your current identity. I don't imagine it would apply to beast boy.
The class feature actually explicitly says Seamless Guise applies.
Really? Interesting then.
In this update: Teisatsu has done to base Stalker what ninja did to rogue
My thinking is that Taisatu has done to the ninja what Unchained Rogue did to the Rogue...
And we're updated! As of today, the guide now includes the fearsome Hellknight inspired Faceless Enforcer (courtesy of Jeremey Kugler), the mad scientist known as the Experimenter (not to be confused with the alchemist archetype Mad Scientist), the solemn yet strangely Wonder Woman-esque Hangman, and the dastardly Serial Killer. In addition, as a small addendum, the base Stalker's rating has been dropped to a yellow, on the grounds that the Teisatsu, Hangman and Serial Killer are all Stalker-locked archetypes that do Stalker better.
well, maybe that's why PFS is banning any archetype that is better than the stalker at being the stalker.
Excellent guide, and massive props for keeping it so up-to-date. It's been a very helpful resource for me.
Great job! I love that you are very on top of new sources for the Vigilante guide
We have another update! Straight from Blood of the Beast, we have a more discreet counterpart to Renown, Martial Flexibility for Racial feats, and a new animal for the Wildsoul that actually doesn't suck!
Great guide man. I took a busted paladin-2/bard-2 into vigilante and turned out alright thanks to this
The Third Party Update!
I've added reviews and rating for archetypes, specializations, talents and feats from N. Jolly's Legendary Vigilantes and Legendary Villains: Vigilantes! Feel free to check it out, and if you play at tables that allow 3pp and don't own these books yet I strongly recommend you go get them because there's some strong stuff in there.
If you have 3pp vigilante content and would like it added to the guide, shoot me a PM or email with a copy.
Heroes of the High Court has an archetype
The Ferret Is A Dummy Update!
Because I did forget a mediocre archetype from Heroes of the High Court, mostly because it's mediocre.
Also: something about feminism, why isn't Black Widow mentioned once in the guide, something... idk. Someone is gonna say it eventually.
Ah that hurts to read. So suddenly he's bad for not mentioning Black Widow. As if she's the most iconic female superhero. I don't blame him, she's really boring. What about Raven? Pretty sure she's a woman!
We have another update! Straight from Blood of the Beast, we have a more discreet counterpart to Renown, Martial Flexibility for Racial feats, and a new animal for the Wildsoul that actually doesn't suck!
Yay Catwoman!
Also: something about feminism, why isn't Black Widow mentioned once in the guide, something... idk. Someone is gonna say it eventually.Ah that hurts to read. So suddenly he's bad for not mentioning Black Widow. As if she's the most iconic female superhero. I don't blame him, she's really boring. What about Raven? Pretty sure she's a woman!
But Black Widow doesn't have a civilian identity, being a spy is her her whole occupation
I really love this guide - nobody talks about the Vigilante :(
I'm surprised you rated Falconine as good. It only gets flying at level 12 and only at 18 do you get Deadly Dive - why rate that so high when they get an AoO.
I know its a lot of work but this guide would be so much better if you included the best feats as a little extra for each archetype. So not a whole feat section as that's like all of them, but maybe the 'must-haves' for an archetype?
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I love the guide!
Quick question though... since there's no Feat section (which makes sense on one hand because a Vigilante can do anything) does that imply that there really aren't ANY Vigilante-specific feats? Like... I haven't done a thorough search, but I would think there must be SOME feats that are specific enough to the Vigilante's class features that they should be mentioned, right?
EDIT: Did a quick search on d20pfsrd and thought I'd help you out with my critiques of what I found:
Convincing Persona <- I would probably rate this one green, as it reduces many of the penalties you would get from your dual identity being compromised.
Masked Symbol <- Orange at best, though it grants some flexibility in skills as you level I suppose.
Startling Getaway <- This one seems pretty blue for a Stalker, since you get to use your Hidden Strike dice and then GTFO. For other Vigilantes, probably orange.
Masked Renown <- Not a feat FOR a Vigilante but a way for a non-Vigilante to gain the bonuses of renown, so might be worth a mention.
Agent of Fear <- I'd say this one's red unless you're in a VERY intrigue-heavy game where you're seeing the same NPCs over and over.
There are a handful of vigilante specific feats in Ultimate Intrigue, but nothing that interesting. IIRC there's one that enhances frightening appearance, one that enhances startling appearance, and one that upgrades dazzling display for nongood vigilantes.
I imagine that since the Vig is not one class but like 8 different ones, you shouldn't expect for there to be a lot of "vigilante specific feats". I'm pretty confident that they will never do "extra vigilante talent" ("extra social talent" is a maybe, but still fairly unlikely.)
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Wait, are you Vengeance? Or are you the Night?
Cause, um, those are two distinctly separate and unrelated things.
;P
I'm surprised you rated Falconine as good. It only gets flying at level 12 and only at 18 do you get Deadly Dive - why rate that so high when they get an AoO.
While Soft Landing is meh, Eagle Eye is acceptable, and I consider it worth if for no other reason than it's the only in-class way to get a fly speed on a vigilante (other than the Fly spell for casters). As for Deadly Dive, yes they get an AoO, but the sheer amount of extra damage will easily outdo whatever it is they do to you.
I know its a lot of work but this guide would be so much better if you included the best feats as a little extra for each archetype. So not a whole feat section as that's like all of them, but maybe the 'must-haves' for an archetype?
I had actually considered that, and I'll probably do that as my next major update when I have the time.
In other news, welcome to the Darklands Update, featuring the Darklantern from Heroes of the Darklands. Able to assume the form of a drow, this archetype is... pretty much good for a one or two level dip (depending on if you want a talent or not).
I'm pretty confident that they will never do "extra vigilante talent"
Which is a shame, it would help some of the archetypes - especially Agathiel.
Speaking of Agathiel, I think you (Fedora) are undervaluing the Agathiel.
I don't think whoever wrote that archetype realized that, but per the rules of polymorph effects, "you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks." That means you get up to four natural attacks from level four on, all day long. That leaves Aspect of the Beast for, er, +2 Init I guess.
Sure, you're only small or medium size and don't get any strength or dexterity bonus, but you can still get full BAB and a few vigilante talents. That's not Wildshape levels of power (because Druid has full spellcasting in addition, so he must be better at that stuff than anyone else, doh!), but it does come with some benefits. Your armor is very solid (you keep your armor and get +2 natural armor from beast shape, and can have Shield of Blades active) and you can rock up to 40ft movement speed in armor. Mockingbird should allow you to speak normally. Also, Dex based "wildshape" is an actual possibility.
Considering how you don't need any feats, (except Power Attack, which you might get with Shield of Blades, or Weapon Finesse, which you might get with Lethal Grace), VMC Barbarian (or Fighter for higher levels) is really good.
Rejoice, americans, you can be an awesome angry eagle!
I'm pretty confident that they will never do "extra vigilante talent"Which is a shame, it would help some of the archetypes - especially Agathiel.
The issue is that many vigilante feats are better than, and sometimes 3 or 2 times, as good as a feat. So you can get Weapon Focus and Specialization or all three Blind Fight feats with a single vigilante talent. Letting people trade a feat for Vig talents is just likely too good for a single feat.
Maybe if you did a list of "you can select any of the following with this feat" would be fine.
Masked Renown <- Not a feat FOR a Vigilante but a way for a non-Vigilante to gain the bonuses of renown, so might be worth a mention.
That's a nice find, man. I have a Hell's Rebels character on whom I wasn't quite ready to pull the trigger on making a Vigilante, but this feat might be worth a gander.
The issue is that many vigilante [talents] are better than, and sometimes 3 or 2 times, as good as a feat.
Same is true for Rage Powers, Discoveries, and Magus Arcanae, and yet there are "Extra" feats for them. Vigilante with "Extra Vigilante Talent" would still be way weaker than for instance a Barbarian or Paladin.
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The issue is that many vigilante [talents] are better than, and sometimes 3 or 2 times, as good as a feat.Same is true for Rage Powers, Discoveries, and Magus Arcanae, and yet there are "Extra" feats for them. Vigilante with "Extra Vigilante Talent" would still be way weaker than for instance a Barbarian or Paladin.
To a certain extent, I think we're seeing some regret on the part of the designers that those feats exist. I think there are some comments somewhere that indicate some of those feats were probably a mistake, and they didn't want to repeat it with Vigilante Talents.
Similarly, I don't think we'll ever see an Extra Favor feat for the Warpriest, despite Extra Ki, Rage, Arcane Pool, etc. existing. Extra Channel explicitly only grants extra uses for Favor to channel.
They seem to have started deciding that some of these things are too powerful to allow extra uses or extra instances of taking the options.
I want to note that for the Agathiel the guide implies using multiple animal forms, but it states that once an animal form is picked it cannot be changed. You only get 1.
It is entirely possible that that was the intention, but that's not how the archetype reads.
At 1st level, an agathiel’s vigilante identity must invoke the appearance and behavior of a single Small or Medium creature of the animal type. The vigilante can attempt to appear to be a normal member of this animal type, but doing so imposes a –10 penalty on his Disguise check. The bonus provided by seamless guise still applies to the vigilante’s attempts to appear to be an ordinary animal. Once the vigilante’s animal form is selected, it cannot be changed.
Emphasis mine. This is stating that the animal that your normal, unpolymorphed shape your vigilante identity invokes is locked in at level 1.
Beginning at 4th level, when an agathiel assumes his vigilante identity, he physically transforms into an animal, though he always retains unusual traits that set him apart from ordinary animals, as if using beast shape I, except the vigilante gains no ability adjustments and can select only a single animal ability from those listed in the spell’s description.
Emphasis mine again. The word "an" implies that it can be any animal, where if it were the animal you'd locked yourself into for your ordinary vigilante identity, it would specify that. So, by a RAW reading, you can transform into multiple animals, not just the animal form you locked in at level 1. Show me a statement that that wasn't the intention and I'll happily rescind, but I honestly don't believe that because that would make it an even worse trade for half of your talents.
Re: Extra Talent, Rage Powers, Discoveries and Magus Arcanae don't, as a general rule, give you multiple feats for the price of one, or a feat with a lot of extras like Shield of Blades or Lethal Grace, making taking those feats on their own basically pointless. If nothing else, I don't think there's a two-handed full bab beatstick alive who wouldn't take a two level dip in Avenger to get Shield of Blades. So that's why it will never get made, not just because talents are better than feats but because so many talents are just flat out "this is that feat but better."
And what Vigilante Talents are overpowered with only two Vigilante levels? All the talents that hand out multiple feats do that bound to levels. All the scaling stuff is obviously bound to levels. A bunch of strong options (like the pounce one) have a level req.
Seriously, I only count 15 out of 52 Vigilante Talents that work without Vigilante levels, and none of them are exactly game breaking.
If nothing else, I don't think there's a two-handed full bab beatstick alive who wouldn't take a two level dip in Avenger to get Shield of Blades.
Newsflash: You can already do that! You can get Shield of Blades with a two level Vigilante dip even without an "Extra Vigilante Talent" feat! No one does that because Vigilante Talents aren't strogn enough to justify a two-level dip!
To a certain extent, I think we're seeing some regret on the part of the designers that those feats exist.
If anyone actually thinks "'Extra X' feat on a class with very strong options is too strong, so witholding such a feat from a class with weaker options equals good balancing", he utterly failed at game design and should stop being a game designer.
The issue is that many vigilante [talents] are better than, and sometimes 3 or 2 times, as good as a feat.Same is true for Rage Powers, Discoveries, and Magus Arcanae, and yet there are "Extra" feats for them. Vigilante with "Extra Vigilante Talent" would still be way weaker than for instance a Barbarian or Paladin.
Yes, they learned from their earlier mistakes with those feats. They hate the extra rage power and extra revelation feats, wish they didn't exist, and thus wont create any more like those.
This is paraphrasing what the DEVs actually posted in the vigilante playtest threads.
I do think "extra social talent" as a feat might be reasonable. If I run a Vigilante game I might fiat that into existence and see if it causes problems.
I mean, I'm always happy to see people spend feats on stuff that has nothing to do with fighting.
I'm gonna let the issue rest, because I can't really say anything about this glaring disregard for balancing that wouldn't get me banned.
What about my post about the Agathiel, Ferret?
I did consider your thoughts on the Agathiel, and I don't necessarily disagree. If nothing else, it's the easiest way to get into a full natural attacks vigilante, and once you get into higher levels you can pick up the cool stuff like pounce. I'll factor those in on the next update, although I can't say just yet whether it'll increase or decrease my opinion.
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Beginning at 4th level, when an agathiel assumes his vigilante identity, he physically transforms into an animal, though he always retains unusual traits that set him apart from ordinary animals, as if using beast shape I, except the vigilante gains no ability adjustments and can select only a single animal ability from those listed in the spell’s description.Emphasis mine again. The word "an" implies that it can be any animal, where if it were the animal you'd locked yourself into for your ordinary vigilante identity, it would specify that. So, by a RAW reading, you can transform into multiple animals, not just the animal form you locked in at level 1. Show me a statement that that wasn't the intention and I'll happily rescind, but I honestly don't believe that because that would make it an even worse trade for half of your talents.
I can see how it could easily be read either way but I am going to lay down a couple of statements that may prove counterpoint. The TLDR is that "an" refers to any type, not any amount.
•To start with, "an" and "a" are articles. They are interchangable and mean the same thing. The first letter of the following word determines which one you use but does not change their meaning.
•"a"/"an" followed by a word designates a singular, otherwise unidentified object/place/concept/thing . If I say "a cat", you know what type of animal it is, but not its colour, size, breed or any other distinguishing features.
•"a"/"an" is also only ever used to describe a singular thing. Example;
There is a cat on the road.
There is an armadillo on the road.
In either case you would not naturally assume that there are 5 animals on the road. Instead you would write something like this;
There are many cats on the road.
We have many armadillos on the road.
There are lots of cats on the road.
There are five armadillos on the road.
So lets go back to this.
...when an agathiel assumes his vigilante identity, he physically transforms into an animal...
Reading this now tells us that he transforms into one, unspecified animal. The designer also had to use this language because it could be any animal, such as a parrot or an elephant, and he cant specify any more clearly (like saying "a medium sized black panther").
This also aligns with what was previously written;
Once the vigilante’s animal form is selected, it cannot be changed.
Mistakes in writing can be made but these seem to say the same thing.
Sorry im being a language nazi here :/
That and I know that it makes the archetype less appealing XD
Beginning at 4th level, when an agathiel assumes his vigilante identity, he physically transforms into an animal,
At 1st level, an agathiel’s vigilante identity must invoke the appearance and behavior of a single Small or Medium creature of the animal type.
Once the vigilante’s animal form is selected, it cannot be changed.
So, reading this...
1: Vigilante identity must be a single animal form.2: The form cannot change.
3: you must assume your Vigilante identity to transform into an animal at lvl 4.
I think that makes it pretty clear :(
I feel dumb for asking this but searching on d20pfsrd isn't helping me. How do I use the whip to get bleed damage? Is it just a matter of a wounding weapon that I can use at more of a range? Thanks.
Well, my fellow ferret, the cabalist deals its bleed damage by attacking with a slashing or piercing weapon, and whips do slashing damage. As an aside, this also makes them eligible for Slashing Grace.
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I think the intent is pretty clear: Why choose and lock a creature choice if it has zero effect on the class? If you can become any animal, why are you picking one and locking it in? Seeing as how word count is at a premium in these products, I don't think they ran that sentence for the heck of it. It is possible it got left after editing, but I'd sooner believe they changed "transform into your chosen animal" to "an animal" to make a little more room.
I'm not sure as the actual intent on the ability, but I agree with Gobo Horde. It says you pick an animal form at level 1 and it cannot be changed.
In my opinion, it would be rather weird if you had to pick an animal to disguise yourself as, which we can all agree is only one option and that option becomes locked, only to be able to turn to any number of different animals later on, but still only be able to disguise yourself as the animal you choose at level 1.
Secondly, I'd argue that the limited option of 1 animal forever is for a couple of balance reasons. Primarily, I doubt that most classes or archetypes will be, or should be, better than Druid at wildshaping (this may change when the Shifter class comes out, but for now, I'd argue this point). So if we compare the Agathiel Vigilante to a Druid, what is different, who has the advantage of what in terms of their wildshaping ability?
Druid Wildshape Goodies:
Can change into many different forms, but only a limited number per day. (Hey look, a 9th level divine caster with more versatility than a martial? Who would have guessed?)
Gains ALL the abilities of Beast Shape 1, 2, 3, ect. for the animal they turn into.
Has a pretty long duration for their form if they choose not to go back to human.
Agathiel Beast Form Goodies:
Gains all natural attacks from level 4 onward.
Can improve their animal form with Aspect of the Beast.
Keeps every piece of equipment, including armor, when they beast form. This could even allow some animal forms to use weapons, like money forms, ect. (This a +3 enchantment on armor, and everything else just melds)
Form lasts as long as they want, with the downside being it takes 1 minute, although this can be speed up. (Taking 1 level of a casting class or having SLAs allows for magical transformation sequence talent)
Keeps Vigilante Specialization, allowing for you to apply hidden strike on your crazy number of natural attacks.
Keeps a couple Vigilante talents that allows them to pick up evasion (exactly at 6 too, when you get your first talent), uncanny dodge at 10, or Mad Rush at 14 if their animal form doesn't have pounce (while this a high level ability, they can give any animal form legal for them pounce, which may not be that effective, but with Aspect of the Beast giving 2 slams and a Helm of the Mammoth Lord giving a gore attack, an Elk will have 1 more attack than a Deinonychus by this point)
Druid Wildshape Baddies:
Requires a feat to cast spells, which is arguably fine since the Vigilante doesn't even have that option.
Loses all armor, weapons, wondrous items, and other gear when they wildshape.
Agathiel Beast Form Baddies:
Only gets 1 animal form and cannot change it. (Again, a 9th level caster with more versatility than a martial?)
Gets less abilities from their animal form early on, but can pick up the good ones at later levels. (Pounce at level 8 is a pretty good one).
Doesn't get ability score bonuses or penalties. (Not that medium or small are really going to give you that many anyway)
Conclusion: A martial gets less versatile options than a 9th level caster for more raw power as well as the cool ability to keep all of their gear. I really don't think only being able to pick one form is that big of a downside for this, especially if you pick a form that's effective from level 4 to level X. (Carry a potion of fly for your Deinonychus form just like any other martial)
Adventurer's Update! Now included is the Masked Maiden archetype, mentally (and physically) scarred survivor of the Gray Maidens and another example of why uncontrolled identity shifts can take a cool archetype and turn it awful.
I've also added a disclaimer about the Agathiel acknowledging that mine is not the only or even the prevailing opinion about Agathiel's form change. It's also intended to make it clear why my stance will not be changing. If you disagree, you can consider the rating reduced to a yellow.