Can you, as a Sentinel, take Advanced Weapon Training: Weapon Specialist?: Why would it? The PrC offers no new options for Weapon Training so why would taking it do anything? If you took levels in a class that gains Weapon Training, that'd be different.
If not, can you, as a Sentinel, use your Bonus Combat Feats to take AWT without it counting against your AWT limits?: No, but you can retrain your actual fighter bonus feats to gain them.
Sentinel bonus feats are not weapon master bonus feats, so cannot bypass the 1/5 levels limit, no matter which way you look at it.
I would tend to fall on the side of the restriction still applying, but I think the rules support on that are a little more ambiguous.
As a Fighter (Weapon Master) you have Weapon Training 2 by level 7.
That doesn't matter in your question. At all. Sentinel isn't a class that grants weapon training. Since Sentinel counts as fighter for feats, it counts for you'e 1/5th level feats you can take. Period.
The question is are they held to the Weapon Master's restriction of no Weapon Specialist: Nothing changed the restrictions the feat put on the Weapon Master's ability to use the feat. Sentinel doesn't grant any new Weapon Training so you can't use it for different Advanced Weapon Training.
If yes, then they can take AWT with bonus feats without counting vs their limit: No, no, no. Weapon Master's get that, not fighter levels. Sentinel levels aren't Weapon Master levels.
If no, then they can take AWT the normal way and take Weapon Specialist: Again, no, no, no. They have no native Weapon Training therefor they are unable to change any of the factors that allow the feat to be taken. They are using their Weapon Master class to gain access to the feats and nothing in the Sentinel class alters the Special section of the feat.
The weird conflicting part is:
"A weapon master can select this feat as a bonus feat; if he does so, it doesn't count for the purpose of the requirement that it can be taken at most once per 5 fighter levels."
No conflict. Weapon master bonus feats CAN be used for the feat.
And
"The benefits of a weapon master's advanced weapon training options apply only to his selected weapon rather than all weapons in the same fighter weapon group, and he can't select the weapon specialist advanced weapon training option."
Yes, that correct. Does the Sentinel give you a way to qualify for Advanced Weapon Training? Nope, so you default to the weapon master: You can use weapon master bonus feats for that feat and you are bared from taking weapon specialist. 0% conflict. it's really super clear.
The question 100% has bearing on if the Weapon Master status still applies. If yes, then YES the Sentinel bonus Feats can purchase the Advanced Weapon Training Feat at no penalty. If no, then the Sentinel can purchase the Feat (providing he meets the prerequisites) AND may choose Weapon Specialist as the Weapon Master status is not in effect.
Weapon Master applies to weapon Master Levels... Full stop. Sentinel has no special rules for the feat, so it's bonus feats so they GET nothing special.
For the 'no', you have NO way qualify for Weapon Specialist other weapon master. You would need another class with the weapon training class feature to be able to pick Weapon Specialist as the Advanced Weapon Training doesn't allows your weapon Master to qualify.
Note the Advanced Weapon Training feat prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature. The Sentinel doesn't have weapon training, so it doesn't alter the equation one bit.
To put it in perspective, you COULD take 5 levels of Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain [warpriest] and THEN take Weapon Specialist as that grants the weapon training on it's own and can therefor qualify for the feat independent of Weapon Master levels. But if you're qualifying JUST with Weapon Master, Weapon Specialist can NEVER be taken.
So no "weird conflicting part". No using another classes bonus feats for ATW and no taking Weapon Specialist unless you have taken enough level in a class that qualify for it [and neither Sentinel or Weapon Master does].
But your other class doesn't qualify, it carries an exception.
Again the Sentinel in itself doesn't have to Qualify. You as a Sentinel still carry everything from your other classes.
And? Does Weapon Master allow weapon specialist? No, so what's the carryover? Does Sentinel grant Fighter bonus feats? No, so what's the carryover?
Weapon specialist requires a non-Weapon Master way to get it. That is neither gained by Weapon Master levels or a PrC that you say "carry everything from your other classes" that doesn't qualify for it...
The Sentinel class alone DOESN'T HAVE TO qualify if you already Qualify through another class
SOMETHING has to qualify for it. Sentinel doesn't and Weapon Master doesn't so how do you figure that combining the two somehow does?
bonus feats are class features, they are tied to the class that grants them. In a very real way you do have 'fighter bonus feats' and 'sentinel bonus feats'.
There are no such thing as "Fighter Bonus Feats"
Try quoting the whole thing once. Notice that it's NOT just combat feats gained, but the ability to retrain them for free. As the feature itself even says, it's called “fighter bonus feats.”
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
Sentinel bonus feats are bonus combat feats but they aren't “fighter bonus feats” as you aren't allowed to retrain them as the fighter feature allows for actual “fighter bonus feats.”
SO, you can't use Sentinel bonus feats as if they where Weapon Master bonus feats as those are different things. You just can't and no amount of trying is going to change that. Much the same as Weapon Masters and Sentinels aren't allowed to take a feat to gain weapon specialist. You're just barking up the wrong tree here.
SO, you can't use Sentinel bonus feats as if they where Weapon Master bonus feats as those are different things. You just can't and no amount of trying is going to change that. Much the same as Weapon Masters and Sentinels aren't allowed to take a feat to gain weapon specialist. You're just barking up the wrong tree here.Actually here you are 100% wrong.
Completely wrong.
If someone has, for example, not taken their full compliment of allowed Advanced Weapon Training FEATS, unless there is a situation like this one (where one archetype says they can't take it) and they have the required Fighter Levels and Weapon Training as a class feature from fighter they *totally* can take Weapon Specialist.
Any class can.
Right... Now, neither Weapon Master nor Sentinel HAS Weapon Training... As such, neither can take Weapon Specialist.
In case it isn't clear, the feature Weapon Masters get doesn't count normally as weapon training. it can only take the AWT feat because of the special section of the feat.FAQ
You could use your Sentinel feats for the 1/5 level feats you could take but you can't use the Sentinel feats as fighter feats to bypass the 1/5 limit. Sentinel feats are NOT fighter feats.
No, COMBAT FEATS are sometimes called "Fighter Bonus Feats"Try quoting the whole thing once. Notice that it's NOT just combat feats gained, but the ability to retrain them for free. As the feature itself even says, it's called “fighter bonus feats.”There are no such thing as "Fighter Bonus Feats"
No, once again you don't quote the whole thing and you're taking it out of context.
These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
The BONUS FEATS are sometimes called “fighter bonus feats", not combat feats in general. “Fighter bonus feats" are bonus feats granted by the fighter class, come from the combat feat list, and may be retrained every 4 levels.
FAQFAQ
Now, read these FAQ's. NOTICE that "Fighter bonus feat" is a "class feature"!!! It's not the same as OTHER bonus feats you get from other classes. They just aren't!!! Sentinel does NOT, NOT, NOT give you the FIGHTER bonus feat class feature!!!
"Fighter Bonus Feats" are feats that get from the class feature. Full stop. it a feature that fighters get called bonus feats and give benefits and bonuses others don't. Does the Sentinel get to retrain their feats every 4 levels? No, because they aren't fighter bonus feats.
"Your disconnect": The FAQ notes that Bonus Feats are a class feature of the fighter. When the feat says "weapon master can select this feat as a bonus feat" it's talking about getting a bonus feat from WEAPON MASTER!!! That's pointed out by the other FAQ: Things are generally written "assuming that your character is single-classed", in this case single class Weapon Master.
Bonus feats from Sentinel are Sentinel bonus feats. SO when you're picking them you are picking them as a Sentinel. You can't retrain them every 4 levels just like you could retrain your human bonus feat as if they where fighter bonus feats.
"This is a case of standard grammar": That's a bad way to look at it. That's how people get levels mixed up with other levels and race traits mixed up with racial traits. The wizard bonus feat feature, isn't the same as the fighter bonus feat feature, the sorcerer's bloodline feature [that grants bonus feats], Sentinel bonus feats, human bonus feats, ect. Heck, the FAQ I pointed out above makes it so that the Weapon Master's Weapon training doesn't COUNT as the fighter weapon training feature...
Since I seem to be hitting a brick wall with you, let me simply say you're looking at this the wrong way. No combination of Weapon Master and Sentinel will allow you to take weapon specialist or allow you to take the ATW feat with Sentinel past the 1 per 5 levels you can normally take. It's pretty straight forward. Feel free to think what you will but I can't see many others agreeing with you. I'll not reply again unless something new is brought up. As/is it seems all answered on my end.
I wouldn't waste your time on this graystone. Unless the PDT issued an answer to his question and followup questions, I doubt he'd be satisfied, and even then I'm not sure.
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Bonus feats awarded for Fighter levels are specifically refered to as Fighter Bonus Feats in multiple sources, and are supposed to be denoted, as they are not in fact "just combat feats".
Fighter: What feats can I retrain at level 4, 8, and so on?
Class entries in the Core Rulebook are written assuming that your character is single-classed (not multiclassed). The fighter's ability to retrain feats allows you to retrain one of your fighter bonus feats (gained at 1st level, 2nd level, 4th level, and so on). You can't use it to retrain feats (combat feats or otherwise) from any other source, such as your feats at level 1, 3, etc., your 1st-level human bonus feat, or
(THIS INCLUDES THE SENTINEL BONUS FEAT YOU GET AT LVL 2 BECAUSE IT'S GAINED FROM SENTINEL NOT FIGHTER)You may want to asterisk your fighter bonus feats on your character sheet so you can easily determine which you can retrain later.
posted June 2013
Graystone has been correct on every counterpoint about Bonus Feats from each class being specific to each class/archtype, but earned cumulatively.
1. You never learn the Class abilities Weapon Training 1-4 as a Weapon Master. Weapon groups are a Class feature, not a feat.
2. You don't know a single Weapon Group, only your mastered weapon type.
3. Advanced Weapon Training is a Class ability, not a feat.
Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option for one fighter weapon group that he previously selected with the weapon training class feature.
4. See the Bold? You have neither.
At 2nd level and again at 7th level, the sentinel gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats. Sentinel levels stack with fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats with a fighter level prerequisite.
You cannot take the Advanced Weapon Training feat either:
You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.
Prerequisite(s): Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit(s): Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you have already selected with the weapon training class feature.
Again, you traded those Class features to become a Weapon Master.
In addition the Weapon Master *does* have a Class Feature named, "Advanced Weapon Training."
It doesn't though. It can ONLY take the feat because of the special section allow you to ignore that prerequisite. The archetype replaces the normal weapon training with it's own version. The FAQ says that the replacement HAS to "says it works like the standard ability" to "counts as that ability." Weapon Master's Weapon Training doesn't SAY it counts as the normal fighter's weapon training, so it doesn't.
This is important, as it's the reason you can't pick up the weapon specialist option as you HAVE to use the special section to use the AWT feat to qualify. This is what prevents the Sentinel from taking it as there is no 'fighter weapon training' to qualify for it.
In essence, you are running into features that sound the same but the game doesn't treat them that way.
Bonus feats are separate features of each class that gives them. Unless they state so, they don't qualify as another classes bonus feats. it may seem a bit silly to have them named the same but is no different than having a section called Weapon and Armor Proficiency that grants different abilities depending on the class. You don't expect a fighter's Weapon and Armor Proficiency to be the same as a wizards, why assume a fighter's bonus feats are the same as a wizards?
"pretty much ruin multiclassing and/or prestige classing": The basic design of pathfinder incentivizes focused characters and disincentivizes spreading out. As such, you are correct, the game actively makes multiclassing and prestige classing suck. There ARE a few gems, like winter witch and Evangelist, that continue to advance your non-PrC abilities so they don't punish you for taking them. Most others are either super niche or pretty awful. Most time someone uses a prestige class, it's to make an 'interesting' character, not a good character. It's not Archetypes though that does any of this though; for the most part, it's the "multiclassing and/or prestige classing" that sucks and not the archetypes.
Graystone is right. Paizo have not been subtle about supporting single class characters, and especially not liking prestige classes. I'm not sure if they have out and out said they would get rid of prestige classes if they could, if they haven't they have come pretty close at times.
Graystone is right. Paizo have not been subtle about supporting single class characters, and especially not liking prestige classes. I'm not sure if they have out and out said they would get rid of prestige classes if they could, if they haven't they have come pretty close at times.
Considering it's practically only the CRB that has PrC at all pretty much highlights that stance.
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Graystone is right. Paizo have not been subtle about supporting single class characters, and especially not liking prestige classes. I'm not sure if they have out and out said they would get rid of prestige classes if they could, if they haven't they have come pretty close at times.Considering it's practically only the CRB that has PrC at all pretty much highlights that stance.
Yep. Just the CRB.
...and the Advanced Player's Guide.
...and the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting.
...and Paths of Prestige.
...and Seekers of Secrets.
...and The Inner Sea World Guide.
...and Inner Sea Magic.
...and Inner Sea Combat.
...and Inner Sea Gods.
...and Pirates of the Inner Sea.
...and Occult Mysteries.
...and Princes of Darkness.
...and Lords of Chaos.
...and Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
...and Chronicle of the Righteous.
...and Champions of Balance.
...and the Technology Guide.
...and People of the Sands.
...and Undead Slayer's Handbook.
...and the Pathfinder Society Primer.
...and City of Strangers.
...and Dark Markets, A Guide to Katapesh.
...and Qadira, Gateway to the East.
...and Taldor, Echoes of Glory.
...and Andoran, Spirit of Liberty.
...and Elves of Golarion.
...and Halflings of Golarion.
...and the Second Darkness Player's Guide.
...and various Adventure Path volumes.
Yep. When you look at it, their abandonment of prestige classes is really quite obvious.
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Prestige classes aren't done... not by a long shot.
Yep, they keep making them... Now if they'd actually make most of them worth taking...
Graystone is right. Paizo have not been subtle about supporting single class characters, and especially not liking prestige classes. I'm not sure if they have out and out said they would get rid of prestige classes if they could, if they haven't they have come pretty close at times.Considering it's practically only the CRB that has PrC at all pretty much highlights that stance.Yep. Just the CRB.
...and the Advanced Player's Guide.
...and the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting.
...and Paths of Prestige.
...and Seekers of Secrets.
...and The Inner Sea World Guide.
...and Inner Sea Magic.
...and Inner Sea Combat.
...and Inner Sea Gods.
...and Pirates of the Inner Sea.
...and Occult Mysteries.
...and Princes of Darkness.
...and Lords of Chaos.
...and Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
...and Chronicle of the Righteous.
...and Champions of Balance.
...and the Technology Guide.
...and People of the Sands.
...and Undead Slayer's Handbook.
...and the Pathfinder Society Primer.
...and City of Strangers.
...and Dark Markets, A Guide to Katapesh.
...and Qadira, Gateway to the East.
...and Taldor, Echoes of Glory.
...and Andoran, Spirit of Liberty.
...and Elves of Golarion.
...and Halflings of Golarion.
...and the Second Darkness Player's Guide.
...and various Adventure Path volumes.
Yep. When you look at it, their abandonment of prestige classes is really quite obvious.
And for people who run primarily off of the SRD resources, only the APG and Tech guide are on that list, which to be fair does add almost a dozen I wasn't thinking of. Not a lot of us own all the splat books and Golarion setting specific stuff (gods know I wish I could)
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And for people who run primarily off of the SRD resources, only the APG and Tech guide are on that list, which to be fair does add almost a dozen I wasn't thinking of.
Actually, it is the PRD which would only include the APG and Tech Guide.
The SRD and Archives of Nethys both include all of the prestige classes from the books on that list.
Not a lot of us own all the splat books and Golarion setting specific stuff (gods know I wish I could)
I recall comments from Paizo staffers that they view prestige classes as being inherently tied to specific cultures and organizations... hence the vast majority of them are found in setting specific books... which are not included on the PRD.
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And for people who run primarily off of the SRD resources, only the APG and Tech guide are on that list, which to be fair does add almost a dozen I wasn't thinking of.Actually, it is the PRD which would only include the APG and Tech Guide.
The SRD and Archives of Nethys both include all of the prestige classes from the books on that list.
Not a lot of us own all the splat books and Golarion setting specific stuff (gods know I wish I could)I recall comments from Paizo staffers that they view prestige classes as being inherently tied to specific cultures and organizations... hence the vast majority of them are found in setting specific books... which are not included on the PRD.
Oh hey, good catch! I primarily use a PRD thats available on my phone app, so I forget what they're called. Secondly,
I've never seen Archives of Nethys! Wow! Wonky on my phone browser, but wow! Thanks for sharing that gem :D