I'm looking for a viable option to restrict high level spell casting (spell levels 7 - 9). Honestly I love the Pathfinder / D20 setting and have no interest in switching to a different system, however the high level saturation of magic poses some significant problems at later levels. The infamous "Scry & Fry", etc etc.
So far the options I've come up with are:
1) level cap the campaign at 13th. This puts a max level caster at just having gotten their 7th level magic. This option uses a slow level progression and requires Wizards to be specialists or partial casters (such as a Magus). Advantage: It allows for the most flexibility with class options.
2) level cap at 20th level, but require all Arcane casters to be partial casters (IE; no Wizard, Sorcerer, Witch, etc). Full progression Divine casters are required to multi-class at a 2:1 ratio (@ level 20 they would be Cleric 13/Fighter 7 for example). Advantage: full 20 levels of progression, and slightly easier conversion with published material. The down side: restrictions on classes (no full arcane casters allowed at all).
Either way there are MASSIVE restrictions on magic items in the campaign, and NPC casters only appear about 20% as much as normal.
Just ban full casters.
Divine still has the Hunter (nature based) the Inquisitor and the Warpriest. Arcane gets the Bard, Skald, Unchained Summoner and Magus. And the Vigilante has several archetypes that make it a sixth level caster of both sorts. Don't do the multi-class thing, lose of Caster Levels can be pretty crippling, given how things like dispel, SR and such work. Much better to be a single class 2/3rds caster than a multi-class fullcaster.
Altogether, 2/3rds casters, 1/2 casters and mundanes all play in the same general ballpark*, and should work out pretty well.
*excepting the Fighter, Chained Summoner, Chained Rogue and unarchetyped Chained Monks
Just play E6. Odds are if you want to restrict high level casting it's probably more in the vein of the kind of campaign you want anyway.
What I'm currently working with can almost be thought of as E13 in its current incarnation. I'm asking to make sure I'm not overlooking something obvious.
Truthfully I'm strongly considering the idea of banning full arcane casters (restricting them to 2/3 caster classes), and simply not allowing full divine casters to multi-class.
This would restrict Arcane casters to 5th level spells, but more class abilities while still allowing Divine casters to reach 7th level but without the option to multiclass.
Why cut it off at level 13 instead of 14? You're leaving Sorcerers with level VI spells while Wizards get level VII at 13.
IMO the solution that requires the least work is take the level of spells that you want to cut off and simply remove them from the game. Casters still get their higher level spell slots, give them all heighten Spell for free, now they can use their higher level spell slots for metamagic.
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Just play E6. Odds are if you want to restrict high level casting it's probably more in the vein of the kind of campaign you want anyway.
Yes, E6 is awesome. Fixes just about all the problems Pathfinder (and d20/3.X).
Alternately, you could fix your problem by stopping casters at 6th level spells, but compensating them in other ways beyond the level where they start getting them. Maybe bonus spell slots for level 1-6 spells? Metamagic feats?
How about some kind of spell specialization where, at each level they would normally gain a 7-9th level spell, they instead gain the ability to cast a 1st level spell at-will. At each level beyond that, they can select another 1st level spell or a spell of one higher level. So a 15th level wizard would still be stuck with only 6th level spells, but he could potentially have fireball at-will.
E6, E8, E10, E12. All of them are options depending on where you want the casting to end.
For a more flexible approach, you could let classes progress until 20th level but limit spells to up to 6th level. Non-casters and 6-level casters aren't affected by this. Full casters could fill their higher level slots with lower level spells that has a metamagic attached to it. You could also consider occasionally dropping an "allowable" high level spell in the form of a scroll or Page of Spell knowledge as precious, precious loot.
Cap the level (E12)
Have the campaign end at level 12
Ban full spellcasters.
Cap spell level at level 6 or 7 and have all subsequent spell levels only be used for metamagic.
I'm looking for a viable option to restrict high level spell casting (spell levels 7 - 9). Honestly I love the Pathfinder / D20 setting and have no interest in switching to a different system, however the high level saturation of magic poses some significant problems at later levels. The infamous "Scry & Fry", etc etc.
So far the options I've come up with are:
1) level cap the campaign at 13th. This puts a max level caster at just having gotten their 7th level magic. This option uses a slow level progression and requires Wizards to be specialists or partial casters (such as a Magus). Advantage: It allows for the most flexibility with class options.2) level cap at 20th level, but require all Arcane casters to be partial casters (IE; no Wizard, Sorcerer, Witch, etc). Full progression Divine casters are required to multi-class at a 2:1 ratio (@ level 20 they would be Cleric 13/Fighter 7 for example). Advantage: full 20 levels of progression, and slightly easier conversion with published material. The down side: restrictions on classes (no full arcane casters allowed at all).
Either way there are MASSIVE restrictions on magic items in the campaign, and NPC casters only appear about 20% as much as normal.
1. is perfectly legitimate PFS society play effectively retires most characters at 12th.
2. Is simply too wordy and complicated for me to want to implement.
It's been my observation that when PC spellcasters dominate compaigns it's because the DM's are too lax in enforcing the basic rules set.
1. Be strict about applying the rules for spells, if in doubt, rule on the interpretation that makes it worse for the caster. Implement changes after taking the time to assay the effects, both intended, and collateral. Don't allow obvious breakers such as potions of shield.
2. Watch for exploits such as sno-cone wishgranting machines and others, many of them rely on at best questionable interpretations of how the rules are supposed to work, and frequently rely on interpretations of text that would make a lawyer squirm.
3. Ban the creation of custom magic items until you get a full sense on how the rules should work in your game. Feel free to add extra requirements. One of mine is the acquisition of a creation formula for any item that someone wants to create.
4. Rigidly enforce the rules for expensive material items for spells, If spell X requires a 5,000 gold piece diamond, 5,000 gold worth of diamond dust isn't going to do. If the wizard is going to be casting stoneskin, make sure that he inventories how much of the components he's stuffing in his handy haversack. You as the DM have the full power to reasonably limit how much of those exotic and expensive components are for sale.
Why cut it off at level 13 instead of 14? You're leaving Sorcerers with level VI spells while Wizards get level VII at 13.
IMO the solution that requires the least work is take the level of spells that you want to cut off and simply remove them from the game. Casters still get their higher level spell slots, give them all heighten Spell for free, now they can use their higher level spell slots for metamagic.
Actually this is an excellent idea. I was thinking of the spell levels as they are currently attached to the class / caster level, but breaking that relationship is certainly an idea to consider.
The only downside I can see of it is it still allows for a caster to get a lot of mileage out of their max level spells. For example a level 20 Sorcerer whose max spell level is 6th could simply use those higher level to only cast their 6th level spells, or a Wizard only casting 7th level spells.
The issue is that by restricting to 13th level the Wizard (Witch, Cleric, Druid, etc) have only just gotten their 7th level spells. My campaign enforces significant restrictions on spell diversity (Arcanes are all specialists for example) thus having the Sorc being one spell level behind but not having the specialization restrictions actually balance well in this case.
Thank you for the suggestion. It is good to hear other ideas for how to make this work.
Why cut it off at level 13 instead of 14? You're leaving Sorcerers with level VI spells while Wizards get level VII at 13.
IMO the solution that requires the least work is take the level of spells that you want to cut off and simply remove them from the game. Casters still get their higher level spell slots, give them all heighten Spell for free, now they can use their higher level spell slots for metamagic.
Actually this is an excellent idea. I was thinking of the spell levels as they are currently attached to the class / caster level, but breaking that relationship is certainly an idea to consider.
The only downside I can see of it is it still allows for a caster to get a lot of mileage out of their max level spells. For example a level 20 Sorcerer whose max spell level is 6th could simply use those higher level to only cast their 6th level spells, or a Wizard only casting 7th level spells.
The issue is that by restricting to 13th level the Wizard (Witch, Cleric, Druid, etc) have only just gotten their 7th level spells. My campaign enforces significant restrictions on spell diversity (Arcanes are all specialists for example) thus having the Sorc being one spell level behind but not having the specialization restrictions actually balance well in this case.
Thank you for the suggestion. It is good to hear other ideas for how to make this work.
Or go the other way around and cap everyone at 12th level. All full casters get their sixth level spells, the 2/3 casters cap out at 4th, and the hobby casters get their thirds.
Alternately, you could fix your problem by stopping casters at 6th level spells, but compensating them in other ways beyond the level where they start getting them. Maybe bonus spell slots for level 1-6 spells? Metamagic feats?
How about some kind of spell specialization where, at each level they would normally gain a 7-9th level spell, they instead gain the ability to cast a 1st level spell at-will. At each level beyond that, they can select another 1st level spell or a spell of one higher level. So a 15th level wizard would still be stuck with only 6th level spells, but he could potentially have fireball at-will.
Wow...that is actually a great idea! And it resolves the issues with allowing the higher level spell slots to simply be open slots. IE the caster cant just load their level 6 spells into all the extra high level slots and thus cast spells like Teleport of Raise Dead 15 times per day.
Thank you for this suggestion!
Thanks guys, I definitely appreciate all the ideas so far. If anyone has any others I'd love to hear them but the feedback so far has been great!
I have particularly like the idea of high level spells becoming some form of augmented lower level casting (such as free low level spells) and the recommendation to administer spell description restrictions carefully.
I have been toying with the idea of reducing the maximum spell slots per level by 1, so i.e. non-specialist wizards cap at 3 spell slots per level, specialists at 4, sorcerers at 5, etc. Do you think this would make a significant difference in how powerful these classes are mid/late game?
The question I would ask is what effect are you trying to achieve? For myself the effect was about trying to limit reality melting effects like Raise dead, Wish, or Teleport. In short spells which could trivialize all serious problems in the world. Thus I allowed these effects to remain (IE; did not convert to a No-Magic system like Iron Heros) but put limits on it's flexibility and the extent to which it could change the world.
What is it that you are hoping to achieve with ruling against the top tier spells? Is there a specific spell, spell combination or effect you are trying to prohibit and felt eliminating all the top tier casting would be more fair than calling out the player for rules abuse or spell in question?
The question I would ask is what effect are you trying to achieve? For myself the effect was about trying to limit reality melting effects like Raise dead, Wish, or Teleport. In short spells which could trivialize all serious problems in the world. Thus I allowed these effects to remain (IE; did not convert to a No-Magic system like Iron Heros) but put limits on it's flexibility and the extent to which it could change the world.
What is it that you are hoping to achieve with ruling against the top tier spells? Is there a specific spell, spell combination or effect you are trying to prohibit and felt eliminating all the top tier casting would be more fair than calling out the player for rules abuse or spell in question?
Specific spells you can either ban, or make the material components difficult to obtain, which effectively means that you have ongoing control over access to them. You can always alter existing spells that don't have an expensive material component or focus to require them.
You'll generally get more useful answers if you are more specific about the outcomes you want.
Some other ideas:
1) Require all characters to start in non-caster classes and take Eldritch Heritage before allowing them to multiclass into a caster class; basically, to cast spells requires an inherent "spark" of the supernatural as well as dedication (the Skill Focus and Eldritch Heritage feats).
1-1) As above, but allowing alchemists as starting characters.
1a) As above, but adapt the Prestige Bard, Paladin, and Ranger from 3.x; you could also design prestige class versions of bloodragers, hunters, inquisitors, investigators (alchemist/rogue), magi, skalds, summoners, and warpriests.
1a-1) As 1a), but limiting arcane to prepared casters (arcanist, magi, witch, wizard) and divine to spontaneous casters (hunter, inquisitor, oracle); in this cosmology, arcane magic requires scholarship and study while divine magic is channeling power from the deities.
1a-2) As 1a), but limiting arcane to spontaneous casters (bloodrager, bard, skald, sorcerer, summoner) and divine to prepared casters (cleric, druid, shaman, warpriest); in this cosmology, arcane casters are manipulating the cosmos on the fly while divine magic is tied to ceremony and ritual.
1b) As above, but limit which caster class the character can take by the bloodline selected (Maestro for bard; Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal, Protean, Undead, etc. for cleric, depending on deity/domains; Aquatic, Deep Earth, Elemental, Serpentine, Stormborn, or Verdant for druid; etc.).
1c) As above, but ban all full casters (arcanist, cleric, druid, oracle, shaman, sorcerer, witch, wizard), leaving only 4- and 6-level casters (alchemist (possibly with option 1-1), bard, bloodrager, hunter, inquisitor, investigator, magus, paladin, ranger, skald, summoner, warpriest). Possibly combined with 1a) for prestige bloodrager, paladin, and ranger.
1d) As above, but require the use of Words of Power.
Instead of the main restrictions coming at the high end, the restrictions are at the low end. With lack of ready spellcasting at 1st-3rd level (and, correspondingly, the increased rarity of spelcasting services), low-level play becomes a bit more challenging. Note that this can also better simulate many styles of fiction better than "standard" Pathfinder.
Not bad...not bad. Definitely feeling some of these!
Talk to the players and ask them to not break your game.
Also, I seriously recommend Ultimate Intrigue's section on dealing with spell casters at different levels.
@KujakuDM
I just picked up Ultimate Intrigue, but haven't yet finished it. So far it has been a great read with excellent ideas for our campaign.
As for Joe Lai's suggestions for "growing a pair" and just letting the players do whatever they want to because otherwise it is "communist" & "North Korea". I will point out a couple of things:
1) My campaign is a "Low Magic Setting". This means magic, magic items, and more than a few other things are limited, rewritten or removed entirely. This fact is FULLY disclosed upfront.
2) All variant rules being used are printed out and handed to the new player at the start of the campaign. They have 3 gaming sessions in which to review the document.
3) No one has forced any given player to come and sit at my table. The players can either accept the limitations in place, or they can go play in a different campaign.
Before anyone says that such a low magic overhaul "can't be done" I'd point out that it HAS been done a couple of times now. There was the D20 Games of Thrones setting (2 different groups did that one), the E6 setting, and the Iron Hero's setting (written by D20 designer Monte Cook), just to name 3 off the top of my head.
The max number of Druid at various levels I'd forgotten PF dropped this. I still use that rule to this day. As for the progression of levels vs the Slow / Medium xp chart we are on the same wave. Low level is about 1 level per game session for the for 3 sessions, then one every other for the next three, then they start to stretch out.
