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So thinking back on Shelyn's entry about how several deities want to make her theirs and do it in a bad way, what would happen if they succeeded? Asmodeus wanted to 'Make her the greatest of Whore Queens.' What would twisted love be? Obsession? Would she be a 'Yandere'? A Japanese term for a woman who wants her beloved and will stalk, collect 'mementos' and kill anyone who looks to be in the way of her love?
Perhaps Cayden would be overindulgence and lechery, Sarenrae would be fanaticism and burning the unbelievers.
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I find it sort of hard to imagune Shelyn being corrupted. But if that were to occur that doesn't necessarily mean "absolute extremes" though it could. If Sarenrae got her, she would probably adopt aspects of the sun (becoming radiant and glowing with bronzed skin), or if with, say, Calistria becoming scheming and conniving, and so on and so on.
In any case, I'm sure the love of her followers (and the other gods) would prevent such an act occurring in the first place/fight to change her back.
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Considering that Shelyn has almost purified the Whisperer of Souls, I think the bigger 'threat' might be her purifying an evil deity rather than the other way around.
;)
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When even Rovagug is compelled to delay destroying her (in defiance of his own faith's antipaladin code!), safe to say she really IS the Eternal Rose.
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Well, he wants to rip out an eye and stick her in the socket so she has a front row seat of the apocolypse so dubious honor.
As for Sarenrae getting Shelyn, she already has. Along with Desna as well.
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Naderi is kind of close to perhaps what a fallen Shelyn might be like, although not all the way evil. Basically a diety of tragedy and failed love.
Cayden, if he fell, would probably match pretty well the darker aspects of Dionysus, and be all about uncontrolled revelry and self destruction. Actually end up as sort of the Anti Zon-Kuthon and probably be best buds with Urgathoa.
Torag, would probably go to far into the defending the dwarven people, and become a god of xenophobia and paranoia, a racist DWARVES FIRST diety
Sarenae...well Nurgal already exists who embodies the harsher aspects of the sun. So maybe she would tip more into anti-redemption. And become a goddess of vengeance and spite
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I would say that a path trying to keep Zon Kuthon from corrupting Shelyn would be awesome... but it also seems pretty similar to Wrath of the Righteous so maybe not.
Essentially a path where people start to notice that love and art and poetry are vanishing... or just a dark age or something.
Might be fun.
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Torag, would probably go to far into the defending the dwarven people, and become a god of xenophobia and paranoia, a racist DWARVES FIRST diety
How is this different then his current doctrine?
I would say that a path trying to keep Zon Kuthon from corrupting Shelyn would be awesome... but it also seems pretty similar to Wrath of the Righteous so maybe not.
Essentially a path where people start to notice that love and art and poetry are vanishing... or just a dark age or something.
Might be fun.
How about going at it from the other direction?
The AP could be about Shelyn becoming more pro-active in saving her brother. Who says that good deities have to be passive?
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Torag, would probably go to far into the defending the dwarven people, and become a god of xenophobia and paranoia, a racist DWARVES FIRST dietyHow is this different then his current doctrine?
{. . .}
Torag seems have to learned that having additional worshippers who are not Dwarves is good for business. (Speaking of which, what other deities started out as patrons of just 1 race, but then got a wider following? Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Calistria seems to have started with Elves and then moved to others; I would have said Desna, but Desna actually seems to be some kind of alien entity that actually came to care about mortals in Golarion's solar system, that just happened to get started with Elves first. Can't think of anyone else, although Droskar seems to have a strong opportunity for doing this in the near future, if he is so inclined.)
* * * * * * * *
With respect to the original topic: I would expect that a LOT of deities (maybe all, or at least all but the most obscure) are marked for corruption by some other deity, and if that can't be accomplished directly, it will be attempted by insinuating heresies into their churches. Asmodeus is probably the supreme master of this kind of trick, but it is very likely that several other deities are no slouches in this matter. Sarenrae seems to try hardest (at least as a matter of explicit philosophy) to convert other deities, but seems to have the least success, being apparently unable to convert even a significant number of mortals, who instead go right ahead practicing slavery and imperialism in her name (and being outdone by that bizarre alien Desna(*) -- oh, the shame . . .); Along the same lines, Sarenrae seems to be the major deity most subject to gradual corruption. Iomedae seems to be about to snap under the pressure of fighting the Worldwound Incursion, and thus may prove to be the major deity most susceptible to catastrophic corruption. As others have posted above, Shelyn seems to be the major deity least susceptible to corruption, but based upon observations of Earth, I could see heresies in her church that require their adherents to mutilitate themselves to make fashion statements (heresies promoted by Zon-Kuthon because body piercings are their own reward, by Asmodeus as a way to bind her worshippers, by Calistria just for twisted fun, and by Abadar because it's good for the business of selling stuff for this . . . Come to think of it, Abadar and Calistria might not be as opposed to each other as a cursory glance at their alignments would lead you to believe . . .).
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Abadar would have state run brothels with wags,401ks,and health care..
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Love what you said Unarcane, except, body piercing isn't an exclusive thing of Zon-Zon. Your post kinda makes it look like you're saying it's ugly, and quite possibly evil to get body piercings.
I know you're not saying that, but others might not. :-)
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Asmodeus. Can you imagine him falling to Chaos, becoming a kill-happy slaughtering bastard who doesn't give a damn about contracts or legality at all?
Don't forget. You can fall in more ways than just to evil. ;)
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Shelyn goes spelunking, and makes nice with ol' Rovie.
Rovagug becomes a nurturing, kind and gentle father of his brood, now infused with the holy purpose of protecting all Golarion's creatures from random disasters...
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Everybody Loves Rovagug
I laughed so hard at this idea just now.
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There is also the little matter of all of his brood not being all that brainy... Poor Xotani the Firebleeder, you can't imagine the earfuls it gets from dad after accidentally setting entire regions on fire. It was just catching some sleep, dammit!!!
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Asmodeus. Can you imagine him falling to Chaos, becoming a kill-happy slaughtering bastard who doesn't give a damn about contracts or legality at all?
Don't forget. You can fall in more ways than just to evil. ;)
Funny you should mention that . . . .
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{. . .} Asmodeus is probably the supreme master of this kind of trick, but it is very likely that several other deities are no slouches in this matter. Sarenrae seems to try hardest (at least as a matter of explicit philosophy) to convert other deities, but seems to have the least success, being apparently unable to convert even a significant number of mortals, who instead go right ahead practicing slavery and imperialism in her name (and being outdone by that bizarre alien Desna(*) -- oh, the shame . . .); Along the same lines, Sarenrae seems to be the major deity most subject to gradual corruption. {. . .}
Thinking more along these lines, I wonder if Sarenrae CAN'T do anything about the above problems because of Asmodeus forcing her to sign the Contract of Creation(*) to imprison Rovagug, and one of the terms in the contract is that she can't step on his toes (or induce anyone else to do so) in any part of his portfolio, even among her own worshippers, and she can't even tell anyone about it, and since his portfolio includes Tyrrany, Slavery, Pride, and Contracts, if she tries to reform any of these problems among her worshippers (or anyone else), Asmodeus will pull the pin on Rovagug's prison.
(*)Which seems to me to have gotten one of those names that George Orwell warned us about.
Calistria would become the goddess of consensual sex in the missionary position for the purpose of procreation.
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Sarenrae seems to try hardest (at least as a matter of explicit philosophy) to convert other deities, but seems to have the least success, being apparently unable to convert even a significant number of mortals, who instead go right ahead practicing slavery and imperialism in her name (and being outdone by that bizarre alien Desna(*) -- oh, the shame . . .);
This isn't actually her problem. Her problem with her worshipers falling into bad habits is actually the downside to the reason for her (very successful) conversion efforts. See, she's the Goddess of Mercy and Forgiveness...if her worshipers fall into Evil just a little, she sorta has to give them every opportunity to repent before she brings the hammer down to stop them. That's just who and what she is. She hasn't quite hit the 'smacking them down' breaking point yet, though per James Jacobs she's very close indeed to doing so, in at least a verbal and blanket spell denial sorta way.
She's pretty good at redeeming people who aren't already her worshipers, really. Hell, there's a tribe of Orcs in Belkzen who worship her, and that's something of an accomplishment, y'know?
As for Desna doing better...she and Desna (along with Shelyn) are lovers (among other things) and it's been specifically noted that Desna was (to some extent) succumbing to Sarenrae's influence in even attempting that particular redemption. So...I'd argue that's Sarenrae successfully influencing another deity as much as it is anything else.
^This is a major update -- where did you find this stuff?
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^This is a major update -- where did you find this stuff?
Mostly in the Ask James Jacobs Thread.
The Orc tribe's in the Belkzen book, though. And the relationship between Desna, Sarenrae, and Shelyn being close is in their deity articles (specifically Desna's, though them being lovers is not explicitly stated).
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{. . .} Asmodeus is probably the supreme master of this kind of trick, but it is very likely that several other deities are no slouches in this matter. Sarenrae seems to try hardest (at least as a matter of explicit philosophy) to convert other deities, but seems to have the least success, being apparently unable to convert even a significant number of mortals, who instead go right ahead practicing slavery and imperialism in her name (and being outdone by that bizarre alien Desna(*) -- oh, the shame . . .); Along the same lines, Sarenrae seems to be the major deity most subject to gradual corruption. {. . .}
Thinking more along these lines, I wonder if Sarenrae CAN'T do anything about the above problems because of Asmodeus forcing her to sign the Contract of Creation(*) to imprison Rovagug, and one of the terms in the contract is that she can't step on his toes (or induce anyone else to do so) in any part of his portfolio, even among her own worshippers, and she can't even tell anyone about it, and since his portfolio includes Tyrrany, Slavery, Pride, and Contracts, if she tries to reform any of these problems among her worshippers (or anyone else), Asmodeus will pull the pin on Rovagug's prison.
(*)Which seems to me to have gotten one of those names that George Orwell warned us about.
Would Asmy EVER pull the pin on Rovagug's prison, tough? He's an evil bastard, but he's not dumb. In fact, I could easily see Sarenrae going "Go on then, pull the pin. I dare you. I double dare you."
P.S.: Don't believe the Asmodean propaganda. It's unlikely such a contract even exists.
I found the opening part of the recent Moloch article to be... enlightening.
I found the opening part of the recent Moloch article to be... enlightening.
Was there an article on Moloch? Where?
Don't you mean Mephisto?
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Nope: Moloch. It's in Inferno Gate.
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It's in the third part of Hell's Vengeance, currently available for subscribers. ^_^I found the opening part of the recent Moloch article to be... enlightening.Was there an article on Moloch? Where?
Don't you mean Mephisto?
Oh, right. Still haven't gotten around to acquiring that... But I guess now I have a more pressing reason to, lol :) Thank you.
Definitely. Kind of blows the whole lid off of Big A's claims, in some ways...
Definitely. Kind of blows the whole lid off of Big A's claims, in some ways...
care to elaborate?
Definitely. Kind of blows the whole lid off of Big A's claims, in some ways...care to elaborate?
Only in-short. I've avoided reading the whole thing - I only accidentally read anything in the first place, as the book was open, and I noticed the article headline.
Short version, is that heaven was running smoothly and A. was considered "one of them" and had to run through hoops more than he wanted just to get a few bits of what would become hellfire from one of the angels there (who obeyed him, but only to a point, because, at the time, though he was considered a part of celestial authority, but not the celestial authority, and had his own "correct" things to to - which he was violating by doing whatever it was he was going for).
Basically, he was an angel or archon or something similar, and, during some actions, there, he became (or engaged in or something) corrupted, corrupting a few angels along the way (one of which became Moloch, but was literally a nameless angel prior).
There might be more there, but that's all I got to. I realized which book it was, went, "Uh, right, I wasn't really supposed to be reading this; whoops~!" and closed the book and put it back (though I doubted it, I wasn't certain if there were spoilers in it or not).
That much alone puts to question most everything we thought we'd known from previous publications, and seems to directly contradict several of the things that Asmodeus claims to have valued from the beginning (notably free will versus authority).
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Incidentally, the article on Mephisto in Hell's Rebels also contains the same information. Asmodeus was an Angel once, there was a rebellion in Heaven, and then he lead his followers to a place where his vision of order could be realized (His followers didn't know, but he'd already discovered Hell way before).
All in all, it's completely in-tune with the old Tyrants of the Nine Hells sourcebook from 3.5 days... But runs head-on against what we've been lead to believe about Golarion up to this point.
Given that it has been repeated on two different Adventure Paths now, I'm disinclined to believe it was editorial slip-up. It seems old Asmy was just fooling everyone in order to flatter himself... Which is, BTW, completely to be expected of him.
For all that we know, he could've been Sarenrae's subordinate in the good old days.
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{. . .}
Would Asmy EVER pull the pin on Rovagug's prison, tough? He's an evil bastard, but he's not dumb. In fact, I could easily see Sarenrae going "Go on then, pull the pin. I dare you. I double dare you."
{. . .}
Depends. If he's sure that HE can escape the carnage, the only thing he loses is whatever he has wrought in the regions ravaged by Rovagug, and if he can make it look like someone else's fault(*), it might even be worth those losses. And he's probably been working secretly on ways to bottle Rovagug back up when everybody comes screaming to him for mercy. And if that doesn't happen, just jump town and travel to another world and tell the sad story of how these do-gooders wouldn't listen to reason, and let loose a primordial force of destruction . . . All lies of course, but wouldn't stop a seasoned politician Devil like him.
(*)You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time . . . The latter are the ones you want to concentrate on.
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The issue with that is that Rovagug is intelligent, vindictive, and at least an order of magnitude more powerful than Asmodeus. Which makes even Asmodeus's genius plans for escaping (and I'm sure he's got a few, just as contingencies) more than a bit uncertain.
That's not to say I disagree with your assessment...but it's predicated on the 'If he's sure he can escape', and I think Asmodeus is too clever to be sure of something that dicey.
Especially given as how Asmodeus has been defeated by a demon lord just... skipping town with his stuff straight back to the Abyss, after Asmodeus "sealed" said demon lord with his own personal power and sigil.
(I'm talking about Baphomet, by the way. That's why he has that Asmo-star on his head, in PF lore... he was marked and bound and cast into a labyrinth... and so he just stole the labyrinth and went back home.)
That doesn't mean that the prince of lies and pride couldn't convince himself that he's totes legit enough to ignore the potential complication or that his cleverly-crafted plans surely couldn't ever fail... but he's also proven canny and able to learn from his mistakes.
Hence, I'm not sure he'd ever really be certain in his ability to loose Rovagug... safely.
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I think PF does a very good job of emphasizing the lawful nature of Asmodeus. He genuinely doesn't like chaos or rule breaking (see his rage over the Daemons using the Dustbringer to pervert natural law) and wouldn't let Rovagug out and break a deal just for an advantage.
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Calistria becomes a goddess of abstinence, truth and forgiveness.
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Cayden Cailean becomes a god of sobriety, duty, and Stoicism.
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I'm still on top.
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