Corrupted Deities, Shelyn to start


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Deadmanwalking wrote:

The issue with that is that Rovagug is intelligent, vindictive, and at least an order of magnitude more powerful than Asmodeus. Which makes even Asmodeus's genius plans for escaping (and I'm sure he's got a few, just as contingencies) more than a bit uncertain.

That's not to say I disagree with your assessment...but it's predicated on the 'If he's sure he can escape', and I think Asmodeus is too clever to be sure of something that dicey.

I was thinking of it more that from Asmodeus' point of view, if Sarenrae tries to end slavery among her worshippers (or anyone else), she is breaking her end of the Contract of Creation, and as part of the punitive terms for breaking the contract, he pulls the pin on Rovagug's prison.

If the Contract of Creation totally didn't exist, some other deities would have called him on it (and sent visions to all their worshippers to this effect, or maybe just used a global bullhorn for even more effect). Something has to be there; however false it is, it has to have real teeth behind it (even if those teeth are just a load of nuclear Hellfire weapons targeted at a variety of major deities and at the Pit of Gormuz.

* * * * * * *

Just had a really weird thought from trying to make a cinematic picture in my mind of Rovagug on the loose, thinking of Rovagug's quasi-wormlike, quasi-insectoid form: What if Desna and Rovagug are actually of the same species (despite very different attitudes), with the former being in metamorphosed form and the latter being in pre-metamorphosis form? What if Asmodeus carried out his contractual threat to pull the pin on Rovagug's' prison, and it turned out that Rovagug had pupated?


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Pharasma, Lady of Graves wrote:
I'm still on top.

Not according to Groetus. He sees all.

Liberty's Edge

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@UnArcaneElection:
I wasn't saying he wasn't able to pull the pin (it's pretty clear he can). I was saying he wouldn't without way more extreme provocation than Sarenrae taking charge of her own followers.

No, the Contract's a doomsday weapon, and Asmodeus uses the threat of it sparingly to avoid direct assaults on Hell and he himself, not to do petty stuff like push Sarenrae around regarding her own worshipers.


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MannyGoblin wrote:
Pharasma, Lady of Graves wrote:
I'm still on top.
Not according to Groetus. He sees all.

Secret Overbeing? Why not Groetus?


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Groetus is a sap, "the world is gonna end, and when it does, you're in charge"

It still makes me laugh, after all these eons!


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"Oh, don't mind Me, Lady Pharasma, I'll just clean Everything up when You're done with it and put it all AWAY..."

...Would you believe She never even bothers to ask where "Away" is?

SUCKERRRRR!!!


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
If the Contract of Creation totally didn't exist, some other deities would have called him on it (and sent visions to all their worshippers to this effect, or maybe just used a global bullhorn for even more effect). Something has to be there; however false it is, it has to have real teeth behind it (even if those teeth are just a load of nuclear Hellfire weapons targeted at a variety of major deities and at the Pit of Gormuz.

This doesn't follow. The other deities have no obligation to counter Asmodean lies, especially not by direct intervention.

Besides, every other religion should have it's own creation myths, and those exclude each other by definition. Who were the first deities, Asmodeus and Ihys or Tiamat and Apsu? WE all know that it actually was Pharasma. The fact that the Lady of the Grave doesn't order a crusade on anyone that preaches differently doesn't change anything.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Just had a really weird thought from trying to make a cinematic picture in my mind of Rovagug on the loose, thinking of Rovagug's quasi-wormlike, quasi-insectoid form: What if Desna and Rovagug are actually of the same species (despite very different attitudes), with the former being in metamorphosed form and the latter being in pre-metamorphosis form? What if Asmodeus carried out his contractual threat to pull the pin on Rovagug's' prison, and it turned out that Rovagug had pupated?

What would such a metamorphosis entail? Desna's appearance is not set. She can show herself as an alien thing with insectoid features, if I'm not mistaken... A change in alignment, then?

Scarab Sages

Patrick C. wrote:

Who were the first deities, Asmodeus and Ihys or Tiamat and Apsu? WE all know that it actually was Pharasma. The fact that the Lady of the Grave doesn't order a crusade on anyone that preaches differently doesn't change anything.

Wait...we do?

I thought it was Asmodeus and Ihys....


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I know she's most powerful.

Scarab Sages

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captain yesterday wrote:
I know she's most powerful.

So I understand, but where does that come from, for that matter? Anywhere other than direct answers from James Jacobs (which is legit as it gets, obviously, but is it in a book, too)?


For the record, Rovagug is an ascended qlippoth in a manner similar to Sarenrae being an ascended angel and Asmodeus being an ascended devil. I'm not sure if it's in an official source, but that's been JJ's line for some time now.

Scarab Sages

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That, I knew - I just feel like anything that important should be in a book somewhere (otherwise there's too much inextricable stringing of wholly different media together, for my taste).


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
That, I knew - I just feel like anything that important should be in a book somewhere (otherwise there's too much inextricable stringing of wholly different media together, for my taste).

I tend to agree - I'm not sure if it's been published or not, however. :)


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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Patrick C. wrote:

Who were the first deities, Asmodeus and Ihys or Tiamat and Apsu? WE all know that it actually was Pharasma. The fact that the Lady of the Grave doesn't order a crusade on anyone that preaches differently doesn't change anything.

Wait...we do?

I thought it was Asmodeus and Ihys....

James Jacobs wrote:
Patrick C. wrote:


Somewhat related - you said that Pharasma was the oldest deity in the setting. Does that include demigod levei powers like the Qlippoth and Protean Lords?

Yes.

I agree that such information should be printed and published, but... We are dealing with the axioms that guide the creative proccess here. We have to take them into consideration.

AND, at least on this small point, there is printed material pointing to Asmodeus being a lying bastard, see above on this very thread.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
Patrick C. wrote:
This doesn't follow. The other deities have no obligation to counter Asmodean lies, especially not by direct intervention.

They don't have an obligation, but some of them would have a strong interest in doing so -- notably Sarenrae herself . . . Unless an actual Contract of Creation or threat of ruin was preventing her from doing so.

Again, if you drawing big conclusions from deities' inaction in a matter that, on their perspective, can be very trivial. Sarenrae knows that her followers know that Asmodeus is a lying son of a gun. She doesn't have to answer point by point a creation myth when there are armies of pit fiends marching. Priorities.

Besides, I could easily say that there's something also keeping Asmodeus from snuffing out all resistence in Cheliax... And supposedly, the Contract of Creation was penned by him, in his advantage... So... Why doesn't he?

And that's all ignoring the fact that, even if the Contract was true in the first place... Come on. All we have on Rovagug is that even Asmodeus teamed up with the others to put him down. Why would he release the Beast now, when he would probably be destoyed along with the others? He's not that petty. At least, not before being backed into a corner.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
The metamorphosis and alignment change don't have to go together. And given the variety of Qlippoth species, and that Rovagug, while being a Qlippoth, doesn't seem to correspond to one of the otherwise known species, couldn't it be that Rovagug is a representative of the larval form of a Qlippoth species that Desna is the adult form of? If you open Rovagug's prison and find a pupa, you don't have any guarantee that a friendly space butterfly is going to emerge when it ecloses . . . .

Hmmm... It's just that, for me, the only thing that is different between Desna and Rovagug to justify one being a mature organism and the other a larval one is appearance and alignment. But it could be a good idea, I mean. If only for the OH, SH- factor.

Scarab Sages

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That would be f#~@ing hilarious - push comes to shove, Sarenrae calls Asmodeus's bluff, Asmodeus makes good on His threat, opens up Rovagug's prison...and a Chaotic Good butterfly-goddess - who is possibly still powerful enough to take the other gods on all by Her/Himself and give them a run for their money at the least - flies out. The ULTIMATE POETIC JUSTICE!!!

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

If we're being technical, the tale of Asmodeus and Ihys isn't a creation of Hell... but of Heaven. It's from the Book of the Damned, which the angel Tabris wrote at the bidding of his celestial masters.

Asmodeus's part in it is as a character, and not (necessarily) an author. ^_^


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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
That would be f@*#ing hilarious - push comes to shove, Sarenrae calls Asmodeus's bluff, Asmodeus makes good on His threat, opens up Rovagug's prison...and a Chaotic Good butterfly-goddess - who is possibly still powerful enough to take the other gods on all by Her/Himself and give them a run for their money at the least - flies out. The ULTIMATE POETIC JUSTICE!!!

Now why is Groetus passing out cigars...?


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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
That would be f%*!ing hilarious - push comes to shove, Sarenrae calls Asmodeus's bluff, Asmodeus makes good on His threat, opens up Rovagug's prison...and a Chaotic Good butterfly-goddess - who is possibly still powerful enough to take the other gods on all by Her/Himself and give them a run for their money at the least - flies out. The ULTIMATE POETIC JUSTICE!!!

Whom do I need to threaten to make this Adventure Path?


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So if Pharaesma knows the future, does that mean everything has been decided and every thought and action plotted out? Like Destiny of the Endless always pronounces what will happen perfectly.

Jim:I'm going to go and have a hamburger
Pharesma/Destiny: Jim went out to get a hamburger, but was run over by a yak.
Yak:BRAY!
Jim:Gack!

Liberty's Edge

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Kalindlara wrote:

If we're being technical, the tale of Asmodeus and Ihys isn't a creation of Hell... but of Heaven. It's from the Book of the Damned, which the angel Tabris wrote at the bidding of his celestial masters.

Asmodeus's part in it is as a character, and not (necessarily) an author. ^_^

That's not entirely accurate. Tabris was told to go get information on the Lower Planes by his superiors, but he did that by going and researching them, and was eventually corrupted in the doing. In the case of that story, that's the official party line of Hell he got.

So...yeah, that one's the story Asmodeus wants told. As Tacticslion notes, the deity articles for a couple of the Arch-Devils actively contradict it . Which is interesting, though not necessarily indicative that it's completely false.


MannyGoblin wrote:

So if Pharaesma knows the future, does that mean everything has been decided and every thought and action plotted out? Like Destiny of the Endless always pronounces what will happen perfectly.

Jim:I'm going to go and have a hamburger
Pharesma/Destiny: Jim went out to get a hamburger, but was run over by a yak.
Yak:BRAY!
Jim:Gack!

Intriguingly... no, not for predestination.

Though that seems like the logical conclusion to such a concept, it's not necessarily... but you'll have to use really flexible and nonstandard (to the point of "near-eccentric") logic to get there, because it's pretty alien to our way of thought (by which I mean, I tend to believe both in predestination and free will, and I still don't always have a mental grasp on how that works - only sometimes and only when I'm looking at it juuuuu~uuuussst right, squinting, and wiggling my left earlobe...).

That said, Pharasma's foreknowledge doesn't work like that anyway.

It's one of the reasons prophecy has currently failed pretty heavily right now - the ability to predict the future with any certainty seems... unpredictable.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
So...yeah, that one's the story Asmodeus wants told. As Tacticslion notes, the deity articles for a couple of the Arch-Devils actively contradict it . Which is interesting, though not necessarily indicative that it's completely false.

Yeah - it doesn't mean that it's entirely false... but rather that it doesn't quite hold up as solidly as it appeared. But then again, that's part and parcel of a guy who's a ruler in Hell...


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Weird that my last post answering the divine obligation issue disappeared (with no indication from a moderator of anything wrong with it), even though a reply quoting it is still here.

The Last Question wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
That would be f@*#ing hilarious - push comes to shove, Sarenrae calls Asmodeus's bluff, Asmodeus makes good on His threat, opens up Rovagug's prison...and a Chaotic Good butterfly-goddess - who is possibly still powerful enough to take the other gods on all by Her/Himself and give them a run for their money at the least - flies out. The ULTIMATE POETIC JUSTICE!!!
Now why is Groetus passing out cigars...?

Maybe because Groetus knows that just because Rovagug metamorphosed, it doesn't mean that THIS space butterfly is going to be Chaotic Good, and Asmodeus is going to be off somewhere laughing hysterically while Sarenrae is left in the lurch . . . .


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

Weird that my last post answering the divine obligation issue disappeared (with no indication from a moderator of anything wrong with it), even though a reply quoting it is still here.

The Last Question wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
That would be f@*#ing hilarious - push comes to shove, Sarenrae calls Asmodeus's bluff, Asmodeus makes good on His threat, opens up Rovagug's prison...and a Chaotic Good butterfly-goddess - who is possibly still powerful enough to take the other gods on all by Her/Himself and give them a run for their money at the least - flies out. The ULTIMATE POETIC JUSTICE!!!
Now why is Groetus passing out cigars...?

Maybe because Groetus knows that just because Rovagug metamorphosed, it doesn't mean that THIS space butterfly is going to be Chaotic Good, and Asmodeus is going to be off somewhere laughing hysterically while Sarenrae is left in the lurch . . . .

Imagine instead going LG. Space butterfly flies over to Heaven and sits down with archons going 'ok, we're to wreck the lower planes, no more of this eternal stalemate b#!#@#&#'.

...Still trying to figure out why Pharasma is more powerful, yet couldn't just beat Rovagug on her own when she was called out as helping to fight him.


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Pretty sure James Jacobs said she didn't get involved, she doesn't get involved in anything but her job of sorting souls. Is there contrary information somewhere else?


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Perhaps Rovagug's and Desna's species is actually stronger in its pupal form. Desna's more mature, pupated form is more low-key and subtle, and perhaps wiser, but overall worse in a fight.

I love this theory, by the way.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

Weird that my last post answering the divine obligation issue disappeared (with no indication from a moderator of anything wrong with it), even though a reply quoting it is still here.

The Last Question wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
That would be f@*#ing hilarious - push comes to shove, Sarenrae calls Asmodeus's bluff, Asmodeus makes good on His threat, opens up Rovagug's prison...and a Chaotic Good butterfly-goddess - who is possibly still powerful enough to take the other gods on all by Her/Himself and give them a run for their money at the least - flies out. The ULTIMATE POETIC JUSTICE!!!
Now why is Groetus passing out cigars...?

Maybe because Groetus knows that just because Rovagug metamorphosed, it doesn't mean that THIS space butterfly is going to be Chaotic Good, and Asmodeus is going to be off somewhere laughing hysterically while Sarenrae is left in the lurch . . . .

I find it hard to believe Asmodeus could hide from an evil space butterfly with all the powers of Rovagug, but he can feel free to try.

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