So I drew "The Lost" form a Harrow Deck of Many Things and now I can't advance any further as a paladin. We are playing RoTRL and we are about halfway through Fortress of the Stone Giants. No class looks like a good second career choice this late in the game but I like my character and would like to stick with him to the end. I leveled him from 1st beginning in September so there is an attachment.
Does anyone have an opinion of what I could do for levels 12-17?
Other party members are...
1. Meatshield Unchained Barbarian Dwarf
2. Psychic Investigator Tiefling
3. Bard of Serenae
Baylor
Male angel-blooded aasimar (angelkin) paladin 11 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 84)
LG Medium outsider (native)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception -1
Aura courage (10 ft.), justice (10 ft.), resolve (10 ft.)
Defense
AC 32, touch 14, flat-footed 31 (+12 armor, +1 deflection, +1 Dex, +3 natural, +3 shield, +2 untyped bonus)
hp 102 (11d10+32)
Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +11; +2 resistance bonus vs. poison
Immune charm, disease, fear; Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
Offense
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee +1 cold iron warhammer +14/+9/+4 (1d8+12/×3) or
+3 keen adamantine longsword +16/+11/+6 (1d8+14/17-20) or
mwk lance +14/+9/+4 (1d8+16/×3) or
mwk ranseur +14/+9/+4 (2d4+16/×3)
Ranged longbow +12/+7/+2 (1d8/×3)
Special Attacks channel positive energy 6/day (DC 20, 6d6),
Smite evil 4/day (+4 attack and AC, +11 damage)
Paladin Spell-Like Abilities (CL 8th; concentration +12)
At will—detect evil
Statistics
Str 20, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 18
Base Atk +11; CMB +13; CMD 30
Feats Critical Focus, Extra Lay on Hands, Extra Lay on Hands, Leadership, Lunge, Power Attack
Traits sacred touch, student of faith
Skills Acrobatics +1 (-3 to jump), Handle Animal +8, Heal +16, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (nobility) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Ride +5 (+7 to stay in the saddle); Racial Modifiers +4 Heal
Languages Celestial, Common
SQ divine bond (weapon +3, 2/day), lay on hands 13/day (5d6), mercies (cursed, fatigued, staggered)
Combat Gear dust of appearance, potion of cure moderate wounds (2), potion of cure serious wounds, wand of cure light wounds, caltrops, healer's kit (6 uses remaining), holy water (6); Other Gear +3 full plate, +1 shield spikes heavy steel shield, +1 cold iron warhammer, +3 keen adamantine longsword, arrows (20), longbow, mwk lance, mwk ranseur, amulet of natural armor +3, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +1, headband of alluring charisma +2, ring of protection +1, snakeskin tunic, backpack, bell, belt pouch, carriage, copper pieces continual light (worth 0.3 gp), fishhook, flint and steel, inkpen, military saddle, signal whistle, spell component pouch, waterskin, wooden holy symbol of Torag, heavy horse (combat trained), 35 pp, 350 gp, 2 sp, 6 cp
Divine Bond (Weapon +3, 11 mins, 2/day) (Sp) Weapon shines with light and gains enhancement bonuses or chosen properties.
Energy Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Immunity to Charm You are immune to charm effects.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Fear (Ex) You are immune to all fear effects.
Lay on Hands (5d6 hit points, 13/day) (Su) As a standard action (swift on self), touch channels positive energy and applies mercies.
Leadership (Base Score 15) You attract loyal companions and devoted followers.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Manifest Halo Halo sheds light as a torch.
Mercy (Cursed) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes curses, as per the remove curse spell at a caster level of your Paladin level.
Mercy (Fatigued) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the fatigued condition.
Mercy (Staggered) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the staggered condition. This does not help if the target is at 0 HP.
Paladin Channel Positive Energy 6d6 (6/day, DC 20) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Sacred Touch You were exposed to a potent source of positive energy as a child, perhaps by being born under the right cosmic sign, or maybe because one of your parents was a gifted healer. As a standard action, you may automatically stabilize a dying creature mer
Smite Evil (4/day) (Su) +4 to hit, +11 to damage, +4 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Snakeskin tunic +2 save vs. poison
Student of Faith +1 caster level of cure spells. +1 to DC of channeled energy.
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A level of Spontaneous caster (Archaeologist Bard springs to mind) and then 4 levels of Dragon Disciple would actually be pretty decent, lots of Bard spells are free of somatic components so no arcane failure chance and the DD levels give you extra strength and some neat powers?
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First off, I believe that if you could secure a wish, you might be able to undo the card's effects. Even if you level up in the meantime, you might be able to retrain. ^_^
I'm guessing you'd like to remain on the full-BAB train, so my first thoughts are fighter, cavalier, and ranger (favored enemy: giants, anyone?). Bloodrager might be flavorful (and doesn't have the barbarian's alignment restriction).
yup, a wish can knock that out
The 54 cards in the Harrow Deck of Many Things possess wildly differing powers. While many effects occur instantaneously and are permanent, some can be delayed. Unless otherwise noted, effects caused by the deck are permanent and can only be undone by a miracle or wish spell, the powers of another artifact, or the intervention of a deity. Many of the deck's effects can alter elements of the game world, and thus should be integrated however the GM sees fit, keeping in mind the alignment and intention of each card.
Wow. Decks of Many Things tend to end poorly when you draw from them. Usually the best choice is just not to mess with them.
Oracle may be something you want to look at. You can choose the Battle Mystery to keep your martial bent, and they cast off of Charisma so you will be able to leverage your best ability score.
They cast divine spells, so you will continue to be able to use your armor and be a front line fighter. They also gain a decent hit die (d8) and medium BAB progression, so it doesn't cripple your combat ability completely.
You would basically be trading a little bit of BAB progression and HP for the Cleric's spell list and a ton of spells per day.
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Or, if you can manage to get yourself killed and brought back to life, you regain the ability to advance in your original class, at the cost of being reincarnated instead of raised.
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Or, if you can manage to get yourself killed and brought back to life, you regain the ability to advance in your original class, at the cost of being reincarnated instead of raised.
I don't want to tell anyone how to play their character... but there's a fabulous story here for an aasimar paladin. The choice between your celestial blood and body, or your powers of righteousness. (I'd also consider whether you're willing to commit suicide to do it, or whether you would seek a glorious death in battle.)
Wow. Decks of Many Things tend to end poorly when you draw from them. Usually the best choice is just not to mess with them.
Yep - they sound cool but they're really a campaign killer. I don't know why any GM would want to include them unless he/she is getting sick of the campaign and wanted an excuse to trash it.
definitely a cool fallen angel thing going on if you decide to go out fighting
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Normally I am not a huge fan of Prestige Classes, but that might be somethings to look at here.
The Evangelist PRC will let Paladin Abilities and Spellcasting continue to advance, at the cost of some BAB.
Holy Vindicator adds some spell casting, some ok powers and keeps full BAB.
Celestial Knight keeps full bab, adds some mostly vs undead powers.
Others might work as well.
I didn't check all the Prereqs, but I imagine with a bit of retraining at most you can get into most of those pretty easy.
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Sentinel is another prestige class worth considering. That one is a slight improvement over the obvious option of taking fighter levels from that point on.
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Yeah, I'd go for Evangelist, Steelblood Bloodrager, or Dragon Disciple, depending on which feels more appropriate for your character.
Evangelist costs you 2 points of BAB and 5 HP, but adds 4 levels of paladin class features and a few other minor benefits. You just need a feat and 3 ranks in Knowledge (religion) to qualify.
Bloodrager gives you full BAB and the stat boosts from Bloodrage, albeit not with too many rounds per day, plus a few minor bonuses.
Bard+Dragon Disciple costs you 2 BAB, but gives you a constant +4 Strength and +2 natural armour by level 17, and has better saves. You also get more spells, and though somatic components limit them somewhat you might still get use out stuff like Heightened Awareness, Timely Inspiration, Tap Inner Beauty, or Blur.
Oracle is possibly useful, but as a low-level oracle your revelations options are limited. Maybe Surprising Charge and Warsight from the Battle Mystery, or Life Link from the Life Mystery. It does have the best spellcasting, but I wouldn't expect spellcasting to do much for you at this point. You're looking at 2nd level spells with a caster level of no more than 5 at level 17. Your offensive spells will probably be pointless, and even many buffs like Divine Favour or Shield of Faith will be pretty minor without scaling. Given that, I'm not sure it's worth losing the BAB and the opportunity cost of getting more functional combat buffs from Dragon Disciple or Bloodrager, or actually progressing your paladin features with Evangelist.
The Evangelist PRC will let Paladin Abilities and Spellcasting continue to advance, at the cost of some BAB.Holy Vindicator adds some spell casting, some ok powers and keeps full BAB.
Sentinel is another prestige class worth considering. That one is a slight improvement over the obvious option of taking fighter levels from that point on.
I want to second the Evangelist, HV and Sentinel. Any of the 3 could suit the "feel" of your character well, and stack perfectly with your current build.
What's the personality of your character?
Or, if you can manage to get yourself killed and brought back to life, you regain the ability to advance in your original class, at the cost of being reincarnated instead of raised.
True, but at -2 levels I believe.
I don't want to tell anyone how to play their character... but there's a fabulous story here for an aasimar paladin. The choice between your celestial blood and body, or your powers of righteousness. (I'd also consider whether you're willing to commit suicide to do it, or whether you would seek a glorious death in battle.)
hey I'm all about flavor so I respect your response and welcome this vein of advice.
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Fighter's good if you want to stick to full BAB and pick up extra feats.
I was about to suggest warpriest, until I looked at your stats. The typical paladin dumped wisdom doesn't work for that.
At this level, you don't have to pick one class for the next 6 levels, either. Dipping battle oracle for a couple of revelations, fighter for a couple of bonus feats, etc could work for you. Heck, even a level of rogue if your group can flank frequently to give you a 1d6 sneak attack could be seen as picking up some training in more tactical combat methods, without the negative connotations of a typical roguish personality.
A level of Spontaneous caster (Archaeologist Bard springs to mind) and then 4 levels of Dragon Disciple would actually be pretty decent, lots of Bard spells are free of somatic components so no arcane failure chance and the DD levels give you extra strength and some neat powers?
Dragon disciple could work out well. I am big on RP flavor and the character is Ulfen from the Land of the Linorm Kings so that could fit. I have to be very careful to not stay under powered. Our DM has kicked up the difficulty a considerable amount past the AP standard.
As an alternative I could always reroll a character at 12th level with 102,000 starting gold for magic items. Could be a good time to make a God to finish out the AP, lol.
Wow. Decks of Many Things tend to end poorly when you draw from them. Usually the best choice is just not to mess with them.
Oracle may be something you want to look at. You can choose the Battle Mystery to keep your martial bent, and they cast off of Charisma so you will be able to leverage your best ability score.
They cast divine spells, so you will continue to be able to use your armor and be a front line fighter. They also gain a decent hit die (d8) and medium BAB progression, so it doesn't cripple your combat ability completely.
You would basically be trading a little bit of BAB progression and HP for the Cleric's spell list and a ton of spells per day.
My initial reaction was oracle but the revelations are too weak until higher levels. They scale nicely...but they need to have time to scale.
Fighter's good if you want to stick to full BAB and pick up extra feats.
I was about to suggest warpriest, until I looked at your stats. The typical paladin dumped wisdom doesn't work for that.
At this level, you don't have to pick one class for the next 6 levels, either. Dipping battle oracle for a couple of revelations, fighter for a couple of bonus feats, etc could work for you. Heck, even a level of rogue if your group can flank frequently to give you a 1d6 sneak attack could be seen as picking up some training in more tactical combat methods, without the negative connotations of a typical roguish personality.
Your portion about dipping is well-made so I thank you for that. I typically look down my nose on "dippers" because my threshold for cheese is pretty low. To the point that many would not consider a dip to be cheesy, and I get that.
With that in mind I could say form a character perspective that the paladin is trying to make his way, best he can, refusing to give up on Torag and his calling while remaining effective in fighting the rune lord cult. To do this he searches inward and outward, cobbling together training best he can to fight the good fight.
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A level of Spontaneous caster (Archaeologist Bard springs to mind) and then 4 levels of Dragon Disciple would actually be pretty decent, lots of Bard spells are free of somatic components so no arcane failure chance and the DD levels give you extra strength and some neat powers?Dragon disciple could work out well. I am big on RP flavor and the character is Ulfen from the Land of the Linorm Kings so that could fit. I have to be very careful to not stay under powered. Our DM has kicked up the difficulty a considerable amount past the AP standard.
As an alternative I could always reroll a character at 12th level with 102,000 starting gold for magic items. Could be a good time to make a God to finish out the AP, lol.
Four levels of DD is pretty much the perfect amount of the prestige class for a martial, the Strength gain means you're essentially still getting full BAB out of it plus extra damage. Of note, using Bard to gain access also opens up access to the Saving Finale spell which combos incredibly well with your great paladin saves to ensure you basically never fail a saving throw again (the added +1 to pretty much everything if you go Archaeologist certainly doesn't hurt, Lingering Performance will see that it stays up pretty much the entire time).
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I don't want to tell anyone how to play their character... but there's a fabulous story here for an aasimar paladin. The choice between your celestial blood and body, or your powers of righteousness. (I'd also consider whether you're willing to commit suicide to do it, or whether you would seek a glorious death in battle.)Or, if you can manage to get yourself killed and brought back to life, you regain the ability to advance in your original class, at the cost of being reincarnated instead of raised.
So I decided to start taking barbarian levels. I really do like the full BAB and I've never been interested in casting. I'm that guy you like to have in your party who prefers to play melee types even at high levels.
For those who are interested I am including my bluebooking of the last game session on how the barbarian input will work. GM gives us special effect cards for blue-booking sessions or for providing updated character sheets at new levels. For background, Oona is a dwarf party member who has been with us since the beginning. We are the only two who are original PCs. I assumed control of Ft Rannick at the end of the last book and used the opportunity to temporarily play a druid because I wanted to try out casters. I did what I wanted for few sessions and switched back to this guy. About 5 minutes into the session the GM whipped out the Deck of many Things as part of a treasure horde in a cliff side cave. Dolgrahn is my intelligent magical item cohort using the leadership feat: A sentient long sword holy avenger sent to me from Torag which contains the spirit of a long-dead dwarven hero and clergyman of the temple.
/*
Everything is finally on track again. I pour over the logistics reports stacked on the oversized desk in an office adjacent to the chapel. The desk is too big for the room that is really an antechamber off the side of the chapel but its less drafty and closer to the merchants, beggars, and common folk who wander in for blessings from Erastil or Torag. When the heavy oak doors creak I know someone is there for a prayer and I can bless them in a way I know best. The dwarves from my Ulfen homelands have taken up the main offices, closer to the larders of course, and that is better for them anyway. They attend to the ongoing engineering projects while negotiationg the contracts of goods moving from the north to Rannick, then from Rannick to Magnimar. The deals were tenuous at first and I was not sure they would not fall through at any moment. However, the minerals cut from the frozen peaks above the Land of the Linorm Kings are too exotic and singular not to catch the eye of the Lord Mayor. Dwarves cut timber and make rafts from the woods nearby and the goods are floated further down to the main city where they enrich us all. Its a good day. The books are in order and there is more than enough to pay off the loans that were taken to hire help to clear the horrors that were the strewn body parts and blood stains of the former occupants. Everything is coming toget...
An acrid smell. Dark. I see in black and white. Oona? Who is that? An Aasimar, fair looking too. He's here too. The Tiefling, looking as confused as I. At least the boys will have a fair game of chance for once. We make our acquaintances and survey our new lot. These are strange times. More of an inconvenience than a real problem. I was growing weary of papers and signet rings anyway. Entertaining the sycophants and keeping the less than upright merchants in line. There's heathens aplenty right here too. Maybe I'll stay a while and see who or what needs their blood let.
Oh a deck of chance? Well...ok. Dolgrahn shivers in the sheath, "This is not prudent, boy!"
I fire back to the sword telepathically, "If we waited for what you thought was prudent, we would both be rusted and covered in moss. A monument to ineffectual stoicism."
The sword sighs, "Do what you will. I advise but obey, but watch yourself. You life belongs to the father of creation and you are his arm and hammer."
I draw... Oh... That's not good.
The sword groans, "Now look what you have done. You tempt powers beyond your reckoning. Looks like you'll keep your blessing but your future is now yours. just like you wanted."
"I didn't ask for any of this. I've only ever tried to do my best."
"Until now." the sword says "Look there the others are drawing their lots. making powerful enemies aren't they? A fine mess. Fancy that! Only the dwarf has the common sense to... Oh no! By the beaded balls of Torag!..."
These next moments are a haze of self-doubt and frustration. How quickly one's life can change. I am... angry. Very angry with myself. I fight reckless. Paladins don't die. They just go home. What will I do now? What am I? Chucking fireballs on the advice of some demon spawn when I should be paying a life of penance at the forge. Sweat out the stupidity I think to myself.
No, I am not broken. Just bent. Hammer the edge back in line. But it is a struggle. After we clear the giants from the room I take stock in the kitchen. I need a drink. A strong one. The larder has the ale. I drink deeply and feel the numb warmth of alcohol. Old beyond my years, I am. I've seen too much and done too little about it. But the rage is there now. Its an inward frustration about all of the could-have-beens, pushing up to the surface until I feel ready to pop. Another drink. it doesn't temper the rage but at least it directed.
"If I can't be a light to the world then I will burn brighter as a fire to my enemies", I say to my sword aloud.
Dolgrahn answers aloud in turn, "Aye, boy. You are young yet. I will not abandon you in this place. Your aim is true. It's your method I'm fearin' now. But I know a thing or two about the rage. I can help you in this too...".
Baylin takes another drink and stuffs a bottle of the harder drink into his belt.
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The new class is Barbarian with the Drunken Brute archetype. */
Can you keep your Paladin levels active (powers intact) and cross with Barbarian??? Barbarians are any Unlawful, and Paladins must be LG. Or does your home game have different rules?
Basically for us it works like this: If you can have a CG paladin of a CG god it serves that a barbarian can also be lawful.
If that doesn't sell it to you consider this: If I can enrich the gameworld for my DM by providing a creative exercise to explain a change to my character than that is worth more than adhering to alignment restrictions that work on a fairly weak premise anyway. If all barbarian tribes are full of chaotic characters then how do they hold themselves together anyway?
A rich depth of character makes the game more enjoyable for all, especially me when I am making choices in game. I think in pathfinder especially that we, as players, often get too wrapped up in shoehorning flimsy character concepts into optimized mechanics to keep up with the CR and other factors. This way I play into the story of RoTRL by showing a change over time of a battle weary paladin fighting a cult that infests governments as much as dungeons. Shouldn't a paladin who had killed dozens of things, many of which were redeemable, be affected in some profound way towards the end of it. He is still a lawful good person. There is also a part of him that struggles with the scars of battle.
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I agree with that philosophy 100% and have personally played a LG barbarian.
That said:
Basically for us it works like this: If you can have a CG paladin of a CG god it serves that a barbarian can also be lawful.
You can't have a CG paladin of a CG god without houserules. So using a CG paladin to justify a LG barbarian is not sound reasoning.
Even though I've seen you've made your choice, I would still highly recommend you look at Bloodrager.
It has rage, full BAB, a d10 instead of a d12, and spells, along with a higher return for having high Charisma.
The Celestial Bloodline is quite obviously your best flavor option here, and gives you quite a few useful abilities (angelic attacks being the main one).
I know the celestial resistances overlap with your aasimar resistances, so maybe consider using the Primalist archetype to replace that power with two rage powers?
Even though I've seen you've made your choice, I would still highly recommend you look at Bloodrager.
It has rage, full BAB, a d10 instead of a d12, and spells, along with a higher return for having high Charisma.
The Celestial Bloodline is quite obviously your best flavor option here, and gives you quite a few useful abilities (angelic attacks being the main one).
I know the celestial resistances overlap with your aasimar resistances, so maybe consider using the Primalist archetype to replace that power with two rage powers?
I'm only to get 4 levels out of this class by endgame. With that in mind it's best for my to take something that is front loaded with benefitsl or a couple dips. Blood rager would be great if I had more time to mix with paladin. In fact I may play that next time so I can be a melee character who dabbles in magic to keep things from going stale. This time I may take two barbarian levels and two fighter levels. Whatvarebyour thoughts on that?
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Class Suggestion // Prereqs
EASY: Bloodrager (ACG) // -- (melee oriented)
EASY: Warpriest (ACG) // -- (spells + sacred weapon stacks with divine bond)
AVERAGE: Sentinel (Inner Sea Gods) / Feats: Deific Obedience, Weapon Focus (deity’s favored weapon)
COMPLICATED: Cavalier+Bard+Battle Herald / Special: Challenge and inspire courage class features. + Skills: Diplomacy 5 ranks, Intimidate 5 ranks, Perform (oratory) 5 ranks, Profession (soldier) 2 ranks.
The 'easy, average, complicated' qualifiers are in terms of what you get out of this in regards to effort put into the class and wait times to get to something good.
Class Suggestion // Prereqs
EASY: Bloodrager (ACG) // -- (melee oriented)
EASY: Warpriest (ACG) // -- (spells + sacred weapon stacks with divine bond)
AVERAGE: Sentinel (Inner Sea Gods) / Feats: Deific Obedience, Weapon Focus (deity’s favored weapon)
COMPLICATED: Cavalier+Bard+Battle Herald / Special: Challenge and inspire courage class features. + Skills: Diplomacy 5 ranks, Intimidate 5 ranks, Perform (oratory) 5 ranks, Profession (soldier) 2 ranks.The 'easy, average, complicated' qualifiers are in terms of what you get out of this in regards to effort put into the class and wait times to get to something good.
Thank you for this breakdown. I have a follow on question. Using medium progression, what is the max level at the end of the AP. I thought it was 15 but now I'm not so sure. It's hard to look it up without triggering spoilers
My RotRl campaign ended at 16. I don't know if that's the normal end or if it changed from my DM's meddling.
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Campaign ends level 16 or 17. Its a tossup whether you are level 17 before the finale or just after.
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I'm only to get 4 levels out of this class by endgame. With that in mind it's best for my to take something that is front loaded with benefits or a couple dips. Blood rager would be great if I had more time to mix with paladin.Even though I've seen you've made your choice, I would still highly recommend you look at Bloodrager.
It has rage, full BAB, a d10 instead of a d12, and spells, along with a higher return for having high Charisma.
The Celestial Bloodline is quite obviously your best flavor option here, and gives you quite a few useful abilities (angelic attacks being the main one).
I know the celestial resistances overlap with your aasimar resistances, so maybe consider using the Primalist archetype to replace that power with two rage powers?
That's solid reasoning. High Cha doesn't give you much from bloodrager - you're looking at an extra 1st level spell slot compared to Cha 11. Two extra spells if you bump your Cha to 20+ by the end. Given that 1st level spells aren't very useful at level 12+, you may very well get more out of the extra HP and ability to take Extra Rage Power (plus getting your first rage power sooner). The Celestial bloodline's first level power is much less useful when you can smite and apply the Holy property to your weapon via Divine Bond.
I would take Lesser Celestial Totem as it will significantly increase the healing you get from Lay on Hands. Also check out Armoured Hulk since barbarian fast movement doesn't work in full plate.
This time I may take two barbarian levels and two fighter levels. What are your thoughts on that?
How badly do you want feats? It doesn't look like you're currently doing anything feat-intensive.
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Thank you for this breakdown. I have a follow on question. Using medium progression, what is the max level at the end of the AP. I thought it was 15 but now I'm not so sure. It's hard to look it up without triggering spoilersClass Suggestion // Prereqs
EASY: Bloodrager (ACG) // -- (melee oriented)
EASY: Warpriest (ACG) // -- (spells + sacred weapon stacks with divine bond)
AVERAGE: Sentinel (Inner Sea Gods) / Feats: Deific Obedience, Weapon Focus (deity’s favored weapon)
COMPLICATED: Cavalier+Bard+Battle Herald / Special: Challenge and inspire courage class features. + Skills: Diplomacy 5 ranks, Intimidate 5 ranks, Perform (oratory) 5 ranks, Profession (soldier) 2 ranks.The 'easy, average, complicated' qualifiers are in terms of what you get out of this in regards to effort put into the class and wait times to get to something good.
Forget everything I said. Here's my new recommendation: (can't believe I forgot about this class)
Holy Vindicator Prestige Class
Requirements
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Special: Channel energy class feature.
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks.
Feats: Alignment Channel or Elemental Channel.
Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells.
Thank you for this breakdown. I have a follow on question. Using medium progression, what is the max level at the end of the AP. I thought it was 15 but now I'm not so sure. It's hard to look it up without triggering spoilersClass Suggestion // Prereqs
EASY: Bloodrager (ACG) // -- (melee oriented)
EASY: Warpriest (ACG) // -- (spells + sacred weapon stacks with divine bond)
AVERAGE: Sentinel (Inner Sea Gods) / Feats: Deific Obedience, Weapon Focus (deity’s favored weapon)
COMPLICATED: Cavalier+Bard+Battle Herald / Special: Challenge and inspire courage class features. + Skills: Diplomacy 5 ranks, Intimidate 5 ranks, Perform (oratory) 5 ranks, Profession (soldier) 2 ranks.The 'easy, average, complicated' qualifiers are in terms of what you get out of this in regards to effort put into the class and wait times to get to something good.
Forget everything I said. Here's my new recommendation: (can't believe I forgot about this class)
Holy Vindicator Prestige Class
Requirements
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Special: Channel energy class feature.
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks.
Feats: Alignment Channel or Elemental Channel.
Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells.
Yes it's cool but for me it isn't that great. I want you to prove me wrong. Keep in mind we are talking about 5 levels of whatever intake only. So I get:
1. +6 AC for one hit at the cost of 1 channel. I am more or less the party healer so that hurts double.
2. +1 per two vindicator levels flexible buff to ac, saves, or to hit, etc... that also damages me a bit.
3. Empowered cure spells. Why on earth would a paladin cast cure spells?
4. Channel smite and the extra damage from blood effect could be cool but it comes too little too late for me.
5. Continuing to gain spells per day in primary class is cool hut paladin spells are much to rave about anyway.
Don't get me wrong. This PrC has more flavor that a Ruth Chris steak but mechanically it seems pretty suboptimal.
How am I wrong?
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Oh!! how about this sweet little FAQ for you! :)
FAQ
The holy vindicator prestige class has an ability that gives him a sacred bonus to AC until "struck in combat." Does a touch attack count as being "struck"? What about a spell like magic missile or fireball?
The ability lasts until an opponent makes a successful attack roll against the vindicator's Armor Class.
I'm only to get 4 levels out of this class by endgame. With that in mind it's best for my to take something that is front loaded with benefits or a couple dips. Blood rager would be great if I had more time to mix with paladin.Even though I've seen you've made your choice, I would still highly recommend you look at Bloodrager.
It has rage, full BAB, a d10 instead of a d12, and spells, along with a higher return for having high Charisma.
The Celestial Bloodline is quite obviously your best flavor option here, and gives you quite a few useful abilities (angelic attacks being the main one).
I know the celestial resistances overlap with your aasimar resistances, so maybe consider using the Primalist archetype to replace that power with two rage powers?
That's solid reasoning. High Cha doesn't give you much from bloodrager - you're looking at an extra 1st level spell slot compared to Cha 11. Two extra spells if you bump your Cha to 20+ by the end. Given that 1st level spells aren't very useful at level 12+, you may very well get more out of the extra HP and ability to take Extra Rage Power (plus getting your first rage power sooner). The Celestial bloodline's first level power is much less useful when you can smite and apply the Holy property to your weapon via Divine Bond.
I would take Lesser Celestial Totem as it will significantly increase the healing you get from Lay on Hands. Also check out Armoured Hulk since barbarian fast movement doesn't work in full plate.
This time I may take two barbarian levels and two fighter levels. What are your thoughts on that?How badly do you want feats? It doesn't look like you're currently doing anything feat-intensive.
Nothing I wanted on my original path was feat intensively at all. I only really wanted in proved critical to complement my keen holy avenger type cohort sword and in already achieved that. I never cared much for the status inducing slceitical fests because when I critical something that usually means the end of its very bad day anyway.
...I'm only to get 4 levels out of this class by endgame. With that in mind it's best for my to take something that is front loaded with benefits or a couple dips. Blood rager would be great if I had more time to mix with paladin.Even though I've seen you've made your choice, I would still highly recommend you look at Bloodrager.
It has rage, full BAB, a d10 instead of a d12, and spells, along with a higher return for having high Charisma.
The Celestial Bloodline is quite obviously your best flavor option here, and gives you quite a few useful abilities (angelic attacks being the main one).
I know the celestial resistances overlap with your aasimar resistances, so maybe consider using the Primalist archetype to replace that power with two rage powers?
That's solid reasoning. High Cha doesn't give you much from bloodrager - you're looking at an extra 1st level spell slot compared to Cha 11. Two extra spells if you bump your Cha to 20+ by the end. Given that 1st level spells aren't very useful at level 12+, you may very well get more out of the extra HP and ability to take Extra Rage Power (plus getting your first rage power sooner). The Celestial bloodline's first level power is much less useful when you can smite and apply the Holy property to your weapon via Divine Bond.
I would take Lesser Celestial Totem as it will significantly increase the healing you get from Lay on Hands. Also check out Armoured Hulk since barbarian fast movement doesn't work in full plate.
This time I may take two barbarian levels and two fighter levels. What are your thoughts on that?How badly do you want feats? It doesn't look like you're currently doing anything
Sorry for typing in tongues! I'm typing on my phone...while holding a baby going down the highway on my motorcycle.
So with all of your very helpful input in mind...thank you by the way. It seems like some sort of barbarian is a good path.
1. I wasnt building towards a feat dependent build that got derailed. So fighter is suboptimal.
2. I don't see how holy vindicator really helps me at such a meager investment.
3. Bloodrager isn't of much use to me because very low level spells will be near useless at endgame.
4. Evangelist has some potential but barbarian seems to offer more.
5. Noble scion dosent fit the campaign or DM style well and none of our group is lacking for gold by any means.
6. Oravle is out because it's not a good dip for a full BAB class this late. Again, the dabbling in spells and revelations isn't ad good as martial focus at this stage in the game.
Have I missed any general concepts we have discussed?
5. Continuing to gain spells per day in primary class is cool hut paladin spells are much to rave about anyway.Hero's Defiance and Paladin's Sacrifice are all you need, and more spell slots are always better.
Here is my typical spell build out.
1st:
Bed of Iron is a daily cast for me. We need it. I use it. Since the other melee is a barbarian intake this economical choice over swift girding.
2x word of resolve to keep out low wisdom Barbarian in the mix had worked well for our group so I keep that ok n the list too.
2nd.
This is all about litany of righteousness. I take it three times. My sword cohort casts true strike on me as a swift action then I cast the litany, then things die.
3rd.
I take Burst of Speed twice. It wrecks tactical formations and changes the battle field dynamic, allows me and the barbarian to flank quickly, and works well against all the Giants in the campaign.
I don't care for casting much so ibl keep it simple and repeat what works best, heavily favoring swift action casts to maintain full attacks.
1. I wasnt building towards a feat dependent build that got derailed. So fighter is suboptimal.
What about a Eldritch Guardian/Mutation Warrior (and Maybe Martial Master) fighter?
Familiar instead of feats, choose mauler archetype and at your 3rd level of fighter it won't be a bad flanking partner.
Mutagen is arguably better than rage for your character and no alignment issues.
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Here is my typical spell build out.
Bed of Iron seems useless unless you want a different Mercy than Fatigued or prefer not to spend the use. My Druid prepares Lesser Restoration and doesn't sleep, and my Paladins do the same with Lay on Hands. Word of Resolve is juicy, good choice.
I don't personally like Litany of Righteousness, but I can't deny the effectiveness. Burst of Speed is beautiful, I can't wait to have a chance to use it someday. It reminds me of Grace, which I abuse heavily on my divine casters.
Here is my typical spell build out.Bed of Iron seems useless unless you want a different Mercy than Fatigued or prefer not to spend the use. My Druid prepares Lesser Restoration and doesn't sleep, and my Paladins do the same with Lay on Hands. Word of Resolve is juicy, good choice.
I don't personally like Litany of Righteousness, but I can't deny the effectiveness. Burst of Speed is beautiful, I can't wait to have a chance to use it someday. It reminds me of Grace, which I abuse heavily on my divine casters.
You made a very good point about Bed of Iron. I have the fatigue mercy for the barbarian anyway, and me now possibly, so I should free up that slot.
Here is my typical spell build out.Bed of Iron seems useless unless you want a different Mercy than Fatigued or prefer not to spend the use. My Druid prepares Lesser Restoration and doesn't sleep, and my Paladins do the same with Lay on Hands. Word of Resolve is juicy, good choice.
I don't personally like Litany of Righteousness, but I can't deny the effectiveness. Burst of Speed is beautiful, I can't wait to have a chance to use it someday. It reminds me of Grace, which I abuse heavily on my divine casters.
You made a very good point about Bed of Iron. I have the fatigue mercy for the barbarian anyway, and me now possibly, so I should free up that slot.
Wait... don't you need 8 hours rest to get your spells back for a paladin though.
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Nope!
Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells.
Divine casters just need an hour of meditation. Only arcane casters actually need rest. Your paladin can stay on watch all night, lay on hands, then prep spells.
My druid is the first mate of our Skull and Shackles party and he terrifies the crew this way.