If he only attacks with one or the other in a single round, he is not two weapon fighting.
Two weapon fighting only applies when you attack with both weapons in the same round.
Fortunately, there is an explicit rules answer on this one.
Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
Doesn't the sling require two hands to operate?
If he only attacks with one or the other in a single round, he is not two weapon fighting.
Two weapon fighting only applies when you attack with both weapons in the same round.
This isn't accurate. TWF only applies when you make the extra TWF attack in a round. If you have multiple attacks from high BAB, you can attack with more than one weapon, using a different one for each iterative attack. Penalties are only incurred when you try to make that additional attack beyond what your BAB, etc. allow you.
Doesn't the sling require two hands to operate?
You can fire, but not load, a sling with one hand.
So as long as it's already loaded, it shouldn't be a problem. Of course, that means you can do this at most once before you're out of bullets.
If he's not attacking with the sling, he's just holding it. The other hand can't do anything to help attack with the rapier anyway, so he might as well hold something.
This isn't accurate. TWF only applies when you make the extra TWF attack in a round. If you have multiple attacks from high BAB, you can attack with more than one weapon, using a different one for each iterative attack. Penalties are only incurred when you try to make that additional attack beyond what your BAB, etc. allow you.If he only attacks with one or the other in a single round, he is not two weapon fighting.
Two weapon fighting only applies when you attack with both weapons in the same round.
You are correct.
I over simplified. My bad.
These rules make playing a monk pretty fun in combat because they can wield 2 different weapons (that have different weapon qualities such as trip or disarm) and thus have access to their unarmed strike (feet, elbows, knees, etc), and two different weapons at any given round.
These rules make playing a monk pretty fun in combat because they can wield 2 different weapons (that have different weapon qualities such as trip or disarm) and thus have access to their unarmed strike (feet, elbows, knees, etc), and two different weapons at any given round.
This is the same for everyone. It just usually works best for the Monk and Brawler.
My understanding was that a character had a main hand and an off-hand... weapons need to be used in their main hand... the way around that is with natural weapons and of course TWF.
unless you are ambidextrous... try and use a sword in one hand with it's nuances of use and a sling... never going to happen. In this case the sling, if loaded prior to combat, would lose its load due to the movement of the offhand in combat... your off hand does not stay still as its required for balance...
I realize that this is real world physics in a game setting but it makes sense.
IMHO.
Pathfinder does not assign a main hand and off-hands only exist when using TWF.
My understanding was that a character had a main hand and an off-hand... weapons need to be used in their main hand... the way around that is with natural weapons and of course TWF.
Pathfinder has simplified this away. Off-hand attacks only exist when you're trying to get an extra attack per round using the two-weapon fighting rules.
My understanding was that a character had a main hand and an off-hand... weapons need to be used in their main hand... the way around that is with natural weapons and of course TWF.
unless you are ambidextrous... try and use a sword in one hand with it's nuances of use and a sling... never going to happen. In this case the sling, if loaded prior to combat, would lose its load due to the movement of the offhand in combat... your off hand does not stay still as its required for balance...
I realize that this is real world physics in a game setting but it makes sense.
IMHO.
This is the way it worked (generally) in 3.0. There was a feat, Ambidextrous, that reduced penalties for TWF because you took penalties when using your non-dominant hand. It's needlessly complex for a game.
It's a common misunderstanding for people to have because, like you said, it actually makes real world sense; it is quite difficult to effectively fight with multiple weapons at once.
The ability in 3.5 and Pathfinder would more rightly be referenced as "Gaining an Extra Attack" or something similar because it doesn't actually turn on fighting with two weapons. Calling it Two-Weapon Fighting does imply that the penalties should kick in if you are fighting with two or more weapons.
But that's not what the rule actually says; the penalty only kicks in when you get that extra attack.
These rules make playing a monk pretty fun in combat because they can wield 2 different weapons (that have different weapon qualities such as trip or disarm) and thus have access to their unarmed strike (feet, elbows, knees, etc), and two different weapons at any given round.This is the same for everyone. It just usually works best for the Monk and Brawler.
...everyone with Improved Unarmed Strike, that is.
Side question - is it assumed that a non-monk/non-brawler character who uses improved unarmed strike is using their hands? The monk class text specifically mentions that their attacks use hands, elbows, knees, and feet. As this is a specific rule, is the implied general rule that others must be using their fists?
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These rules make playing a monk pretty fun in combat because they can wield 2 different weapons (that have different weapon qualities such as trip or disarm) and thus have access to their unarmed strike (feet, elbows, knees, etc), and two different weapons at any given round.This is the same for everyone. It just usually works best for the Monk and Brawler....everyone with Improved Unarmed Strike, that is.
Side question - is it assumed that a non-monk/non-brawler character who uses improved unarmed strike is using their hands? The monk class text specifically mentions that their attacks use hands, elbows, knees, and feet. As this is a specific rule, is the implied general rule that others must be using their fists?
No. Per the combat chapter in the CRB, unarmed strikes are defined as punches, kicks, or headbutts.
Kicking is not limited to monks.
Doesn't the sling require two hands to operate?
But there are mutlple ways to get around having two hands.
A rather convenient one is juggler bard. Even with a 2 level dip, they can hold 3 items at once and still count as having a free hand. That, inspire courage, and arcane strike can make the dual ranged weapon style rather fearsome, be it crossbow, gun, or sling.
These rules make playing a monk pretty fun in combat because they can wield 2 different weapons (that have different weapon qualities such as trip or disarm) and thus have access to their unarmed strike (feet, elbows, knees, etc), and two different weapons at any given round.This is the same for everyone. It just usually works best for the Monk and Brawler....everyone with Improved Unarmed Strike, that is.
Side question - is it assumed that a non-monk/non-brawler character who uses improved unarmed strike is using their hands? The monk class text specifically mentions that their attacks use hands, elbows, knees, and feet. As this is a specific rule, is the implied general rule that others must be using their fists?
Nope, everyone. Improved Unarmed Strike just makes it so that you can do it without provoking attacks of opportunity.
These rules make playing a monk pretty fun in combat because they can wield 2 different weapons (that have different weapon qualities such as trip or disarm) and thus have access to their unarmed strike (feet, elbows, knees, etc), and two different weapons at any given round.This is the same for everyone. It just usually works best for the Monk and Brawler....everyone with Improved Unarmed Strike, that is.
Side question - is it assumed that a non-monk/non-brawler character who uses improved unarmed strike is using their hands? The monk class text specifically mentions that their attacks use hands, elbows, knees, and feet. As this is a specific rule, is the implied general rule that others must be using their fists?
Nope, everyone. Improved Unarmed Strike just makes it so that you can do it without provoking attacks of opportunity.
...which no one would do ever except in the most dire of circumstances, which is why it's not worth mentioning, which is why it was brought specifically in the context of a monk/brawler, as someone who could fully benefit from the ruling of "non-handedness" of weapon attacks.
There have been many cases where people on these boards have advocated that ONLY monks and brawlers are capable of using their elbows, knees, head, etc...
And you never know WHEN it will be useful. That is not for us to discuss here. Especially in the context of it is not possible, just because it is unlikely.
It could simply be used because the "puncher" has caught someone flat-footed and is unlikely to be able to make an AoO again them.
But anyway, the point was to show that all character have the knee, head etc. option available to them.
Would this +1 bab attack with another weapon in your other hand be at half strength? hmmmmmmmm.
No, for the same reason you don't take the penalty. Off-Hand weapons really only exist while TWF. If you're not TWF, it's not really an "off-hand" weapon attack; it's just another attack with a different weapon.
So if your BAB is +6, meaning you get an iterative at +1, you can make those attacks with two different weapons, whether using a different hand or not. Since you're not TWF, you don't take TWF penalties, nor does the second attack's STR damage get reduced to half (part of the consequence of TWF).
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There have been many cases where people on these boards have advocated that ONLY monks and brawlers are capable of using their elbows, knees, head, etc...
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And they're right, RAW. The CRB defines an unarmed strike as "Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts". Monks and Brawlers gain the additional addendum "A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet", which opens up the elbows and knees as new options. So, technically, a dwarven fighter wielding a longhammer, boulder helmet, and boot blades would not be eligible to make an unarmed strike unless he had a level of monk, since all the base approved limbs are occupied.
Personally, I would think that someone telling me I can't knee someone without levels in a specific class would be a sign that I may want to find another table to game at, but the basic assertion does have rules backing it.
There have been many cases where people on these boards have advocated that ONLY monks and brawlers are capable of using their elbows, knees, head, etc...
***
And they're right, RAW. The CRB defines an unarmed strike as "Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts". Monks and Brawlers gain the additional addendum "A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet", which opens up the elbows and knees as new options. So, technically, a dwarven fighter wielding a longhammer, boulder helmet, and boot blades would not be eligible to make an unarmed strike unless he had a level of monk, since all the base approved limbs are occupied.
Personally, I would think that someone telling me I can't knee someone without levels in a specific class would be a sign that I may want to find another table to game at, but the basic assertion does have rules backing it.
Not since 2013:
Unarmed Strike: For the purpose of magic fang and other spells, is an unarmed strike your whole body, or is it a part of your body (such as a fist or kick)?
As written, the text isn't as clear as it could be. Because magic fang requires the caster to select a specific natural attack to affect, you could interpret that to mean you have to do the same thing for each body part you want to enhance with the spell (fist, elbow, kick, knee, headbutt, and so on).
However, there's no game mechanic specifying what body part a monk has to use to make an unarmed strike (other than if the monk is holding an object with his hands, he probably can't use that hand to make an unarmed strike), so a monk could just pick a body part to enhance with the spell and always use that body part, especially as the 12/4/2012 revised ruling for flurry of blows allows a monk to flurry with the same weapon (in this case, an unarmed strike) for all flurry attacks.
This means there is no game mechanical reason to require magic fang and similar spells to specify one body part for an enhanced unarmed strike. Therefore, a creature's unarmed strike is its entire body, and a magic fang (or similar spell) cast on a creature's unarmed strike affects all unarmed strikes the creature makes.
The text of magic fang will be updated slightly in the next Core Rulebook update to take this ruling into account.
The CRB defines an unarmed strike as "Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts".
No, it defines punches kicks and headbutts as unarmed strikes. They're examples, not a limit.
Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
The monk is not an addition to this, look
"A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet",
Those overlap. A punch is a fist. A kick is a foot. They're just saying the same thing two different ways.
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Except the monk list doesn't include head butts. So... two partially overlapping sets.
Or they're not sets at all. they're descriptions. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender" does not mean "Oops, they hit the forest. Everyone put your guns down!"
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An unarmed strike is an attack with a punch... punch or kick... kick or punch... The two methods of doing an unarmed strike is punches and kicks... and headbutts. The three methods of doing an unarmed strike is punches, kicks and headbutts... and elbow jabs... The four... no... amongst the methods... amongst the ways of doing an unarmed strike... are such attacks as punches, kicks... I'll come in again.
If every body part counts as an Unarmed Strike, can I make a tea bag coup de grâce?
Dislike. I don't want to live in a world of deadly tea bags.If every body part counts as an Unarmed Strike, can I make a tea bag coup de grâce?Yes... with bonus points for style.