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A friend of mine is doing a high-level dungeon crawl for us, and with the addition of the Weapon Masters Handbook, I couldn't resist trying a pure fighter out.
However, I am far from used to operating at this level, so I would like some input and critique of my build.
I have a dedicated flanking buddy, with a large threat range and Butterfly's Sting, so I decided to try to be a brutal flanker. The punching dagger is far from optimal, but is pretty much the only flavor part I'm "married to". Level 20 is a possibility, but is pretty nebulous.
The build looks like this so far:
Race: Half-orc (Sacred tattoo)
Class: Fighter (Advanced Weapon Training 9: Focused Weapon, Advanced Weapon Training 13: Trained Initiative)
Ability Scores: (20-point buy)
Str 19 (+1 lvl4, lvl8, lvl 12)
Dex 14
Con 13 (+1 lvl4)
Int 10
Wis 13 [+1 lvl16)
Cha 7
Traits: Fate’s Favored, Defender of the Society
Feats:
1. Power attack (F), Combat Expertise (retrained from Dodge after grabbing headband)
2. Weapon Focus (punching dagger) (F)
3. Outslug Style
4. Weapon Specialization (Punching dagger) (F)
5. Advanced Weapon Training (Armed Bravery)
6. Lunge (F)
7. Keen Scent
8. Combat Reflexes (F)
9. Outslug Weave
10. Critical Focus (F)
11. Outflank
12. Greater Weapon Focus (punching dagger) (F)
13. Outslug Sprint
14. Staggering Critical (F)
15. Greater Weapon Specialization (punching dagger)
16. Critical Versatility (F)
Equipment:
Adamantine Impervious Keen Menacing Punching dagger +2
Mithral full plate +4
Armored Kilt
Heavy Steel Shield +3
Belt of Physical Perfection +6
Gloves of Dueling
Headband of Intelligence +4 (Knowledge: Dungeoneering and Perception)
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Unfettered Shirt
Boots of Striding and Springing
Cloak of Resistance +4
Ring of Protection +3
Ring of Sustenance
If anybody has thoughts, ideas or corrections, I'd appreciate it.
1. Dirty fighting. This feat is the 'sigh, ok, we give up on those annoying prereqs' feat. It counts as combat expertise, improved unarmed strike, int 13, etc. Also, it lets you do maneuvers without AoOs if you sacrifice your flanking bonus (or gives you more flanking bonus on the maneuvers if you have those improved maneuver feats). So nice to have, even if it didn;t count as every annoying prereq. So you don't need the headband and retraining junk.
2. I would try to get outslug sprint WAY earlier. It is one of the best things of your build. With lunge attached, you can full attack anything in a 45' wide circle- and that plays nice with enlarge person (no doughnuts like withr each weapons). You can full attack from a distance that full plated halflings have to spend their entire move to reach. That is practically the next best thing after pounce and proper pseudo pounces. So getting it 5 level earlier is great. Once sides start bunching together, this can practically hit everything except casters WAY in the back.
3. I somewhat question the focus on crit feats on a x3 weapon. I know it is probably "what is a high level fighter to do?" syndrome, but still. Maybe a nice cornugon smash/hurtful build to get an extra hit in as a swift action/doing intimidation debuffs. Plus, that is around the levels where you can look into weird weapon properties (I think there is that one that sickens intimidated opponents- even more debuff).
Assuming 15 point buy, try to distribute your ability score points more evenly at level 1, then focus on your favourite ability. It frees up points:
Str 21 (15 +2 half-orc +4 level 16)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 7
This leaves you with 2 points left. Consider Int 12, two skillpoints per level can backfire, even at this high level.
Beside that, the character is very focused on offense. A failed Will save will result in a desaster for the party - better sacrifice some offensive power for Iron Will and Improved Iron Will.
Alternatively, you can take the 2 leftover ability score points, reduce Wis to 10, upgrade Cha to 13 and take the Improved Bravery feat from Ultimate Intrigue. It gives you the bravery bonus (level 16: +8!) on all saves vs. mind-affecting effects. Wis 10 will make your Will save vs. non-mind-affecting effects weaker, as well as your Perception, but that's a small price. Spend a feat to compensate, if you feel like it.
1. Dirty fighting. This feat is the 'sigh, ok, we give up on those annoying prereqs' feat. It counts as combat expertise, improved unarmed strike, int 13, etc. Also, it lets you do maneuvers without AoOs if you sacrifice your flanking bonus (or gives you more flanking bonus on the maneuvers if you have those improved maneuver feats). So nice to have, even if it didn;t count as every annoying prereq. So you don't need the headband and retraining junk.
2. I would try to get outslug sprint WAY earlier. It is one of the best things of your build. With lunge attached, you can full attack anything in a 45' wide circle- and that plays nice with enlarge person (no doughnuts like withr each weapons). You can full attack from a distance that full plated halflings have to spend their entire move to reach. That is practically the next best thing after pounce and proper pseudo pounces. So getting it 5 level earlier is great. Once sides start bunching together, this can practically hit everything except casters WAY in the back.
3. I somewhat question the focus on crit feats on a x3 weapon. I know it is probably "what is a high level fighter to do?" syndrome, but still. Maybe a nice cornugon smash/hurtful build to get an extra hit in as a swift action/doing intimidation debuffs. Plus, that is around the levels where you can look into weird weapon properties (I think there is that one that sickens intimidated opponents- even more debuff).
1. As far as I can tell, Dirty Fighting only counts as those prerequisites with regard to combat maneuver feats. Otherwise, it would be a sure deal.
2. I agree. But the game starts at level 16, so it doesn't matter much.
3. The crit feats mostly build off the synergy between the butterfly stinger and myself. Sort of a second-degree crit-fisher. But my original idea was indeed to go for TWF-shield feats.
Assuming 15 point buy, try to distribute your ability score points more evenly at level 1, then focus on your favourite ability. It frees up points:
Str 21 (15 +2 half-orc +4 level 16)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 7This leaves you with 2 points left. Consider Int 12, two skillpoints per level can backfire, even at this high level.
Beside that, the character is very focused on offense. A failed Will save will result in a desaster for the party - better sacrifice some offensive power for Iron Will and Improved Iron Will.
Alternatively, you can take the 2 leftover ability score points, reduce Wis to 10, upgrade Cha to 13 and take the Improved Bravery feat from Ultimate Intrigue. It gives you the bravery bonus (level 16: +8!) on all saves vs. mind-affecting effects. Wis 10 will make your Will save vs. non-mind-affecting effects weaker, as well as your Perception, but that's a small price. Spend a feat to compensate, if you feel like it.
It's built on a 20-pt buy. Sorry, should have said that. Advanced Weapon Training: Armed Bravery adds my Bravery bonus to all Will saves. By my calculations, my Will save will end up being +16 or +17. I thought that would be respectable?
Skills aren't really my main focus with this build, as we have both a wizard, a magus and probably a rogue, all with high Int. The headband will give me an additional two maxed skills however.
It's built on a 20-pt buy. Sorry, should have said that. Advanced Weapon Training: Armed Bravery adds my Bravery bonus to all Will saves. By my calculations, my Will save will end up being +16 or +17. I thought that would be respectable?
Skills aren't really my main focus with this build, as we have both a wizard, a magus and probably a rogue, all with high Int. The headband will give me an additional two maxed skills however.
I admit I stopped reading at the ability scores and then focused on them. With 20-pt buy, my advice still stands: Distribute rather evenly at point buy, then use the racial ability score increase and those from level 4, 8 etc. to increase your favourite stat(s). This way these bonuses are worth more point buy points. And ok, Int 10 seems to be more than enough with this party.
Will +16 or +17 is not bad. But CR 16 creatures have a primary DC of 24, which means a failed Will save every third time. Which can be lethal for the entire party - rogue and wizard won't last long when surprisingly engaged by you. Improved Bravery mostly solves this problem.
I admit I stopped reading at the ability scores and then focused on them. With 20-pt buy, my advice still stands: Distribute rather evenly at point buy, then use the racial ability score increase and those from level 4, 8 etc. to increase your favourite stat(s). This way these bonuses are worth more point buy points. And ok, Int 10 seems to be more than enough with this party.Will +16 or +17 is not bad. But CR 16 creatures have a primary DC of 24, which means a failed Will save every third time. Which can be lethal for the entire party - rogue and wizard won't last long when surprisingly engaged by you. Improved Bravery mostly solves this problem.
Thanks for the advice. I'll check that feat out as soon as Ultimate Intrigue is on the SRD.
How would you distribute the scores on a 20-pt buy, with the stipulation that 13 Wis is a requirement for Keen Scent, which I'm thinking is rather nice?
How would you distribute the scores on a 20-pt buy, with the stipulation that 13 Wis is a requirement for Keen Scent, which I'm thinking is rather nice?
One error in your first post is the inclusion of 5 level up bonuses; that said, I will give two distributions that match your original as closely as possible.
Disregarding all magical items and boosts, a possible distribution is (assuming you gave STR one too many level up bonuses):
STR 15+2 (racial) + 4 (lvl) -> 21
DEX 14
CON 15 (or 14)
INT 10 (or 12)
WIS 14
CHA 7
This will grant you an extra 1 CON or 2 INT compared to your build, without dropping any other stat. If you would rather have STR at an even number, consider this:
STR 16+2 -> 22
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 11
WIS 13
CHA 7
or
STR 16+2 -> 22
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 7
Unfortunately, STR 22/DEX 14/CON 14/WIS 14 can't be reached without dumping INT as well as CHA unless you reach level 20.
1. I know you said "pure" fighter, but have you considered a 2-level dip into Brawler? You could flurry with that one punching dagger, and you wouldn't be behind on bonus feats at all. Plus it boosts your Fort and Reflex saves, and gives you 4 uses of martial flexibility per day.
2. Instead of making your punching dagger a +2, why not leave it at +1, and ask a friendly caster to put Greater Magic Weapon on it to make it +4?
3. With the money you save from that, pick up two Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stones, one to boost saves by +1, and the other to boost attacks. But it's a competence bonus, so skip the one for attack rolls if you have a bard in the party. Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone is another cheap +1 AC, and the cracked version is a cheap +1 initiative.
4. Anything in the neck slot?
I have a build here for a pure tank/caster bane Figther
Race: Dwarf
Character traits: Defender of the society, Glory of old
Abilities (20p/buy)
Str 17 Dex 12 Con 15+2 Int 12 Wis 10+2 Cha 5
Class: Fighter (Mutation warrior) 12
1 - Steel soul, Power attack
2 - Combat reflexes, Bravery +1
3 - Stand still, Mutagen
4 - Barroom Brawler, +1 Str
5 - Weapon training, Advanced Weapon training (Fighter's tactics)
6 - Bravery +2, Intercept Charge
7 - Mutagen Discovery (Wings), Cut from air
8 - Disuptive, +1 Con
9 - Advanced Weapon training (Abundant tactics), Smash from the air
10 - Bravery +3, Spellbreaker
11 - Mutagen Discovery (Vestigial Arm), Shatterspell
12 - Pin Down, +1 Str
13 - Advanced Weapon Training (Armed bravery), Outflank
14 - Bravery +4, Advanced Weapon Training (Trained Initiative)
15 - Mutagen Discovery (Greater Mutagen), Spellcut
16 - Teleport tactician, +1 Str
Starting with the "never-gets-older" Dwarf combo of Steel Soul+Glory of Old, you get some serius boost to your saves against spells (the bane of all fighters)
You can stop your foes on their tracks with Intercept charge, Stand still and Pin Down, effectively locking any opponent in you desire it.
With Cut and Smash from the Air you can cover both yourself and any adjacent ally against ranged attacks including ranged touch ones, negating ray spells. Later, you can do it as well with spells that target your Reflexes with Spellcut.
Being a Dwarf you get access to Shatter Spell which benefits from Abundant tactics, meaning, you get to dispell several spells per day with your special move, which is great end enemy buffs or problematic spells such as Forge cage.
You should get a Phase Locking weapon and you will get excellent results with Teleport Tactician, because at highter levels, lots of enemies can teleport away if you don't prevent it.
Since you are going to get a flanking buddy, Outflank double your bonus, which is always nice.
Barroom Brawler also benefits from abundant tactics, meaning you can get any feat you need on the fly more than once a day.
Finally, the perks of the mutagen warrior gets you Greater mutagen which is a great buff, plus Wings and an extra arm that will let you grab a shield a 2-hand your weapon.
So in short, great melee offense, utility tactics, great movility, great saves and anti-caster tricks.
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How would you distribute the scores on a 20-pt buy, with the stipulation that 13 Wis is a requirement for Keen Scent, which I'm thinking is rather nice?
In addition to Mexcalibur's ideas:
Str 14 +2 (half-orc) +4 (levels)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 13
So you can have Keen Scent and Improved Bravery. This distribution exploits that any score up to 13 is cheap to get (just 1 point per point of score), but at the end you still have to sacrifice a little bit of Str and Con. If you dislike the idea of losing hitpoints and Fortitude saves, go for Dex 12 and Con 14 instead, at the expense of initiative and Reflex saves. Well, you have belt of physical perfection +6 anyway, so it shouldn't matter that much.
1. I know you said "pure" fighter, but have you considered a 2-level dip into Brawler? You could flurry with that one punching dagger, and you wouldn't be behind on bonus feats at all. Plus it boosts your Fort and Reflex saves, and gives you 4 uses of martial flexibility per day.
2. Instead of making your punching dagger a +2, why not leave it at +1, and ask a friendly caster to put Greater Magic Weapon on it to make it +4?
3. With the money you save from that, pick up two Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stones, one to boost saves by +1, and the other to boost attacks. But it's a competence bonus, so skip the one for attack rolls if you have a bard in the party. Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone is another cheap +1 AC, and the cracked version is a cheap +1 initiative.
4. Anything in the neck slot?
1.Even though level 20 is nebulous, I'm still hoping for the fighter capstone ;) It was a hard choice between that and a brawler dip, but hope springs eternal.
2. I was thinking about damage output, but you have a good point. Maybe I'll bribe a caster for the buff.
3. I completely forgot about ioun stones! Sounds great!
4. Nothing in the neck slot. I'm broke.