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So after my crowd control cleric died horribly, I've decided I'm done with the cleric class for a while, and with a Steelblood bloodrager, battle Oracle, and TWF rogue, I think we're covered on melee. I was thinking going ranged, but the other 2 characters (bard and life oracle) birth use one, and while they didn't specialize in the use of it, I don't want to step on toes.
So I was thinking of going either Geokineticist or Bolt Ace. Geokineticist looks like a lot of fun, with both the attacks and utility. But going bolt ace for 5 levels, then taking fighter the rest of the way has a certain appeal, but I'm not sure what I want to do.
All I know is I'm playing a Hobgoblin. Worked it out with the GM and I think he's excited for it. But yeah. Suggestions?
Keep in mind ranged combat can be a little boring, as you mostly just stand there and shoot. It often lacks the tactical complexity of melee combat. I've seen very few combats use cover, etc., in combination with ranged combatants. Maybe a little in d20 Modern gun battles.
There's not no tactical complexity to ranged combat. You might occasionally move to get into position, or range of your Point Blank Shot feat, but mostly you just stand still and get lots and lots of full attacks. Which doesn't suck.
That said, you can try to get your fun quotient in non-combat encounters. Rangers are always fun, urban ones doubly so (Disable Device). Am I right in assuming that the bard is good at social skills, and everyone else has at least a decent Charisma score (maybe not the rogue)?
Speaking of the rogue, you might want to talk to its player and see if it would like a team mate to go scouting with it. Rangers are good at Perception and Stealth, and Survival is always useful. If you get counter-ambushed, the rogue can melee and you can do ranged stuff.
EDIT:
Alchemist might be another alternative "ranged" character that won't step on the other archer's toes because you're not using archery. Alternatively, an inquisitor might be good (if you're not totally sick of divine casters by now), since with 5 other allies, it's going to be able to use its Teamwork goodness a lot.
RE-EDIT:
You can also replace "ranger" with "slayer" if you want to replace spells with sneak attack.
Also, the hobgoblin's +4 to Stealth also seems to synergize with a scouting-type character. And can even compensate for a class that doesn't normally get Stealth as a class skill or a (relatively) heavier-than-normally armored scout.
There's not no tactical complexity to ranged combat. You might occasionally move to get into position, or range of your Point Blank Shot feat, but mostly you just stand still and get lots and lots of full attacks. Which doesn't suck.
I politely disagree. Sure, if you only want to dps that's one aproach you can take, but ranged combat is overall the best for more than that.
For instance, you don't need to be static. Pick up a mount (horse, summon, animal companion) and enjoy moving while you fullround your enemies at a constant moving safe distance. As long as you don't double move, you don't get penalties to your shots (Bonus points for equiping your mount with horseshoes of speed so you can double your movement)
Second, one interesting option is the overwatch style. Once you get Overwatch Tactician, you can set up to two readies with a standard action. This is a solid tactic to hunt enemy caster, who will find themselves with an arrow to the face the moment they start casting.
If you go Lorewarden you can opt for a trip build. Take Ranged trip and combine it with Relentless Shot, you can now effectively pin your foes to the ground with your shots and once they try to get up, the provoke AoO and you can trip them again.
Don't want to trip? Go with disarm then, and combine it with Ricochet toss and a Throw weapon and now you can mug your enemies from a safe position.
If you decide to go Bolt Ace though, don't go further than 5th level, there is no more ice past there.
And finally, as SmiloDan mentions, a bomber Alchemist can be quite fun to play and offers a ton of posibilities with his discoveries and extracts.
So yeah, Ranged characters can be very fun to play. You just need to be creative.
Well I'm not usually the sneaky type. Was taking authoritative alt racial trait so I have a boost to intimidate and diplomacy, as I am occasionally the party face.
Alchemist is out as one of the guys plays one in our other campaign, and I don't like stepping on toes. Don't want the comparisons.
Slayer is interesting. Especially if I stick with intimidate, as I could demoralize, then fire fir sneak attack.
That aids, you didn't weigh in on the two options I was considering-Bolt Ace and kineticist. Thoughts there?
Might I suggest 2 lvls of alchemist grenidier archtype shoot alchemist fires and the like then go archer fighter so you can sunder or disarm from a distance and after 5 lvls of fight go full slayer!
OldRolero: I forgot about mounted archery! That's a really fun style. Full movement + full attacks? Yes please! If only there was a fun and traditional mount for goblinoids... ;-)
Those archery tricks sound really fun, too. I love ranged combat maneuvers.
2ndGenerationCleric: I don't know enough about those 2 classes to give good advice. The Bolt Ace is the crossbow archetype for gunslinger, right? I don't think I've even read the write-up of the kineticist yet. I really should, it sounds neat. Sort of like a Con-based warlock from 3.5, but different, right? A hobgoblin sounds great for a Dex-based attacks & Con-based spells and/or magic.
I like gun tank for Hobgoblins because they perfectly blend dex/con. It may take a house rule but you could make it stack with bolt ace. (Bolt ace is just gunslinger stuff on crossbows.) I had a concept a while back where you would take a two level dip into alchemist and take the extra discovery feat. The mutagen gives a nice bonus and some basic buffing extracts. You can also get two additional arms, to wield a tower shield, a two handed firearm (Or crossbow) and another hand for extracts. The tower shield gives an attack roll penalty but you could pull it off because Bolt Ace has a feature that lets them use touch AC I believe. This could also just be used for dual wield crossbrows if you don't like reloading as much. Maybe with dual reloading crossbows... It may be weird, but definitely fun. The Hobgoblin Crossbowman reveals his additional two arms. He takes his massive shield, fires his crossbow, and swigs some foul-smelling concoction. The last thought of his prey was, "What in Iomadae's name was that?"
As I look at it, an old build I did for a friend comes to mind. Intimidation build on a Slayer Archer. Use the combat tricks and Ranger tricks to get the necessary feats for archery while using my regular feats for the Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses build. Kick off my turn moving into position. Study a target as a swift action. Go for the Dazzling Display with roughly +20 on my intimidate check. With them intimidated, I can use my next turn to full round attack them, getting my sneak attack damage. Mwa. Ha. Ha.
What's nice about Kineticist is that they literally only need Constitution. Kind've like a wizard, but with a wizard you have to blend intelligence with constitution and dexterity because you don't want to die. (Sigh... My first character was an elven wizard with dexterity and constitution 10. There probably was a reason I didn't play that campaign for very long...) With Kineticist you can put everything into constitution and what's leftover could go into dexterity. Considering they are both things Hobgoblins get bonuses to, it's like the class was made for the race. Also Geokineticists have the best defense talent, and quite mobile as long as you have solid earth. If you can get tremor sense (which I think you can) you can just go like a whack-a-mole drawing attention. Pop out, blast, duck under. Sounds pretty fun. It's like if the whack-a-mole was a sniper... Who could also cause earth quakes...
which is why id considered it originally, but im starting to wonder if its worth it. kind of low on dps. which is fine, as they have plenty of utility, but im concerned about contributing, as it may not fit well with the campaign, where the worst things happen when the fight goes on too long.
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Another avenue to consider for ranged utility is a grenadier alchemist. They can manage a solid amount of battlefield control building around discovery combinations such as explosive missile, frost bomb, and directed bomb, along with the grenadier's ability to attach alchemical weapons to a bomb.
I believe the discussion I saw was on the Paizo messageboards if you want to search for specifics (intentionally not linking it in case you want to do your own building). It looked like a lot of fun if you like toolbox utility characters as it does respectable damage and provides the utility of an alchemist, yet isn't just a "stand and shoot everything all the time" ranged attacker.
I'm halfway through skimming the big K, and I really like the skill list! 4+ skills, and they have Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth, and Use Magic Device, which are some of the most fun skills in the game.
Kineticist is one of my favorite classes, in theory. But I fear in practice I won't do well, especially since this is a tougher dungeon.
And I don't want to be an alchemist
I played a really fun "melee" ranged character. He couldn't get flanking, but could run right up in to the front lines with crossbows or bows depending on how he was built. Now, Snap Shot isn't quite as good since the nerf (10ft threat range instead of 15) but it is still fun. Here is a list of feats to work towards.
Weapon Focus
Rapid Reload (if going the crossbow route)
Rapid Shot
Point Blank Master
Many Shot (if going the bow route)
Crossbow Mastery (if going the crossbow route. heavy crossbows are nice)
Snap Shot
Improved Snap Shot
Combat Reflexes
Other feats you can just fill out with what you want. I definitely prefer the crossbow route myself. Haven't had a chance to play this character since Bolt Ace was introduced but if I were to build it now it would probably look something like this (built as a hobgoblin for your convenience on a 20 point buy to level 13. 5 Bolt Ace / 8 Weapon Master Heavy Crossbow)
Str 12 Dex 17 + 2R + 3L = 22 Con 12 + 2R = 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
1 - Point Blank
3 - Precise
4 - Rapid Reload Heavy Crossbow
5 - Rapid Shot
6 - Crossbow Mastery
7 - Weapon Focus Heavy Crossbow
7 - Snap Shot
9 - Weapon Specialization Heavy Crossbow
9 - Point Blank Master
11 - Improved Snap Shot
11 - Improved Critical Heavy Crossbow
13 - Combat Reflexes
13 - Greater Snap Shot
I played a really fun "melee" ranged character. He couldn't get flanking, but could run right up in to the front lines with crossbows or bows depending on how he was built. Now, Snap Shot isn't quite as good since the nerf (10ft threat range instead of 15) but it is still fun. Here is a list of feats to work towards.
Weapon Focus
Rapid Reload (if going the crossbow route)
Rapid Shot
Point Blank Master
Many Shot (if going the bow route)
Crossbow Mastery (if going the crossbow route. heavy crossbows are nice)
Snap Shot
Improved Snap Shot
Combat ReflexesOther feats you can just fill out with what you want. I definitely prefer the crossbow route myself. Haven't had a chance to play this character since Bolt Ace was introduced but if I were to build it now it would probably look something like this (built as a hobgoblin for your convenience on a 20 point buy to level 13. 5 Bolt Ace / 8 Weapon Master Heavy Crossbow)
Str 12 Dex 17 + 2R + 3L = 22 Con 12 + 2R = 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
1 - Point Blank
3 - Precise
4 - Rapid Reload Heavy Crossbow
5 - Rapid Shot
6 - Crossbow Mastery
7 - Weapon Focus Heavy Crossbow
7 - Snap Shot
9 - Weapon Specialization Heavy Crossbow
9 - Point Blank Master
11 - Improved Snap Shot
11 - Improved Critical Heavy Crossbow
13 - Combat Reflexes
13 - Greater Snap Shot
Oh wow, that's almost what I'd built, except I had gone light to free up a feat for iron will, had a 25 pt buy, and only went up to level 9. Might have to give it another look after all... just when I'd made my mind lol
Oh wow, that's almost what I'd built, except I had gone light to free up a feat for iron will, had a 25 pt buy, and only went up to level 9. Might have to give it another look after all... just when I'd made my mind lolI played a really fun "melee" ranged character. He couldn't get flanking, but could run right up in to the front lines with crossbows or bows depending on how he was built. Now, Snap Shot isn't quite as good since the nerf (10ft threat range instead of 15) but it is still fun. Here is a list of feats to work towards.
Weapon Focus
Rapid Reload (if going the crossbow route)
Rapid Shot
Point Blank Master
Many Shot (if going the bow route)
Crossbow Mastery (if going the crossbow route. heavy crossbows are nice)
Snap Shot
Improved Snap Shot
Combat ReflexesOther feats you can just fill out with what you want. I definitely prefer the crossbow route myself. Haven't had a chance to play this character since Bolt Ace was introduced but if I were to build it now it would probably look something like this (built as a hobgoblin for your convenience on a 20 point buy to level 13. 5 Bolt Ace / 8 Weapon Master Heavy Crossbow)
Str 12 Dex 17 + 2R + 3L = 22 Con 12 + 2R = 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
1 - Point Blank
3 - Precise
4 - Rapid Reload Heavy Crossbow
5 - Rapid Shot
6 - Crossbow Mastery
7 - Weapon Focus Heavy Crossbow
7 - Snap Shot
9 - Weapon Specialization Heavy Crossbow
9 - Point Blank Master
11 - Improved Snap Shot
11 - Improved Critical Heavy Crossbow
13 - Combat Reflexes
13 - Greater Snap Shot
Well for a 25 Point buy I'd just bump the Wisdom to a 16. That's +1 Will save and +1 Grit point. You could also drop the Cha to a 7 and bump Int to a 12 just for the extra skill rank / level. Really makes it so you don't need Iron Will.
The great thing about this build too is it's also picking up all your ranged stuff first. By LVL9 You are firing and reloading without provoking too which is perfect.
Why cavalier over fighter? Soyou know, mounts are disallowed in this game- GM forbid it, plus many caves
Not sure I want to go rogue or cavalier, as they dont really help my crossbow prowess, as I need more feats.
If you want to do something completely different - Goblin Fire Bomber
4 levels in rogue give you 2 virtual feats (Weapon Focus and any Combat feat), skills, 2d6 sneak attack, evasion, uncanny dodge, trap stuff, all for the low low cost of an average of 4 hps and 1 point of BAB.
Hobgoblin Sniper(slayer)
Str 14
Dex 20
Con 15
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 14
Feats/Talents
F1 Point-Blank
T2 Weapon Training (weapon focus)
F3 Precise Shot
T4 Ranger Feat (Rapid Shot)
F5 Dazzling Display
T6 Ranger Feat (Point-Blank Master)
F7 Manyshot
T8 Combat Trick (Deadly Aim)
F9 Shatter Defenses
That's the plan so far. (Headband and belt included, 25 pt buy) Am I on a good path?
Looks good!
What skills and traits are you getting?
Any equipment? What kind of headband and belt?
Taking the alternate racial trait authoritative, so I'll have diplomacy to max out. Same for intimidate, perception. Definitely swim since my last guy drowned in a nasty river. Good climb and stealth.
Want craft alchemy but gotta see if I can use the alchemical Arrows from the alchemy guide. And if course I need intimidate to scare them into being flat footed vs my full attack at range or up close.
+1 composite longbow and at least a +2 mithril Breastplate. Efficient quiver or 2. Not sure beyond that other than a ring of protection and an amulet of natural armor. Dex and wisdom
OK, cool.
Craft (alchemy), Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perception, Stealth, Swim.
Survival? Climb? Are you maxing Alchemy and Swim, or just half max ranks? Dabbling in any other Craft or Knowledge skills?
What level are you starting at? One build you might try is the rock thrower. I believe the progression is Oracle of stone 1/barbarian hurler 1/weapon master fighter X. Get a belt of mighty hurling and it lets you use strength for attacked rolls on thrown weapons.
Daezzen Hurler Keifer is an example of the build. Pretty sure he's 15 pts buy and NPC wealth too. He can shatter his thrown rock to auto confirm a crit or shatter it to inflict bleed damage.
Unlikely to be stepping on anyone's toes as most have probably never a rock throwing build before.
1 rank in survival since it rarely comes up, half in climb. Max for swim, alchemy if my GM let's be make the arrows. Wasnt planning on too much else. I'm social and a combat threat. But I don't know much beyond that
Ugh. The more I look at the slayer class, the more I wonder if I should just go with a melee weapon or pick a different class. I feel like I lose out on a lot of stuff because of the bow.
@ Tels: Level 9. Dunno, my GM is pretty picky-doubt I'd be able to find enough rocks to throw
@Smilo:
Perception 9 +6= 15
Intimidate 9 +7= 16 (18vs Studied Target)
Diplomacy 9 +7= 16
Swim 9 +5= 14
36
Climb 5+5 = 10
stealth 4+8 = 12
Survival 1+6 = 7
Bluff 4+5 = 9
Sense 4+5 = 9
Acrobatics 1+8 = 9
@ Tels: Level 9. Dunno, my GM is pretty picky-doubt I'd be able to find enough rocks to throw.
If your GM is going to be so picky as to not allow rocks to be found inside caves, I expect there are other problems than just finding ammo. You can always carry around bags of rocks as ammo in the mean time, as a strength based character, you've got the capacity. But if it's really a concern, gloves of shaping are a set of gloves that, essentially, gives you constant stoneshape. You would be able to just scoop rocks out of the ground or walls in between fights to restore ammo to your bags of rocks.
Maybe I need to look into it more-im thinking large boulders. And while those gloves could be fun, but I'm more interested in the slayer as of now. Think my build is viable?
Also, the alchemist talk is making me consider Grenadier, but maybe combined with Bolt Ace? Not sure.
I have an idea for an elven archer-alchemist that uses Dex and Int to damage, plus the occasional bomb-on-a-stick-flying-through-the-air.
I think it combined PBS, Precise Shot, and Focused Shot with the Rocket Arrow discovery?