What happens on a full attack with only secondary natural weapons?


Rules Questions


Lets say the creature has no primary natural attacks, but multiple attack forms designated as secondary? How?

2 tentacle attacks and 1 tail slap.

Now if the creature had only one type of attack form, these would just be treated as primary (IE only tentacles or only a tail). But with all three, the rules don't clearly state what happens.

SO then, do I during a full attack make all three attacks at -5, and no attacks at my full BAB? or since all of them are secondary do I trat all of them at my full BAB?

For an even better example, what happens to a witch trying a full attack with the nails hex and the prehensile hair hex, as they explicitly state they are treated as secondary natural weapons?


I'm 99% sure that Slap/Tentacle/2 Wings do all happen at the -5/1/2 St.

But if you only have 1 natural Attack such as a Stegosaurus with its Tail or a Human Alchemist with the Tentacle Discovery, then your Natural Attack becomes Primary.

Bear in mind that even if you are only using 1 of your Attacks, that doesn't make it Primary. The NA in question has to be the only natural attack you have.

I'm pretty sure that if the Witch had either nails or hair and no other natural attack, then it would be primary, but as soon as she has both, both are secondary.


Well that does suck. So you can combine as many primary attacks as you want. but you can't combine secndary together even if you only use secondary?

Scarab Sages

A secondary attack is treated as primary if it's your only natural attack. So a horse has a natural attack of two hooves as a secondary attack. It can full attack with those hooves at full BAB and Str modifier. But if it also had a wing attack, it would not longer be it's only natural attack, so all attacks would remain secondary.


Why would a horse have one natural attack of two hooves instead of two natural attacks of one hoof each?


Here is the rule Scott and Imbicatus are referring to:

Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.


Ah! Totally misunderstood what he was saying. Thanks!


If a creature has only one type of attack, but has [/b]multiple attacks[/b] per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Why would a horse have one natural attack of two hooves instead of two natural attacks of one hoof each?

What matters for this purpose is the number of types of attacks, not the actual number of attacks.

A Horse has two hoof attacks, but those are the same type. Thus, ordinarily, those attacks would both be primary attacks, even though hoof attacks are secondary.

However, Horses have a special quality, Docile, that says without training, their hoof attacks are secondary. So even though the standard Horse has only one type of attack, meaning it should be primary, Horses without special training treat their hoof attacks as secondary.

EDIT: Chess Pwn is a sneaky ninja.


But since a horse animal companion also has a bite attack for some reason (unlike the bestiary horse), its hooves are secondary even after it gets combat training (thus losing Docile), right?

Scarab Sages

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
But since a horse animal companion also has a bite attack for some reason (unlike the bestiary horse), its hooves are secondary even after it gets combat training (thus losing Docile), right?

Correct.

Dropping the horse, another example could be a half-orc witch with the Nails hex. The hex grants two secondary attacks of the same type. If you took that hex at first level, you could make a full attack Nails/Nails at full BAB. However, if you then took the Razortusk feat for a secondary bite attack as well, then when you made a full attack of bite/nails/nails, then they would all be treated as secondary.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
But since a horse animal companion also has a bite attack for some reason (unlike the bestiary horse), its hooves are secondary even after it gets combat training (thus losing Docile), right?

If you check the heavy horse you'll see it has a bite attack too.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Can anyone find a published monster with only secondary attacks, but multiple types of secondary? Usually if it only has secondary, it's b/c it only has that one type of attack, like only hooves or tentacles.


j b 200 wrote:
Can anyone find a published monster with only secondary attacks, but multiple types of secondary? Usually if it only has secondary, it's b/c it only has that one type of attack, like only hooves or tentacles.

Usually monsters with multiple attacks get Multiattack or something similar. I don't know that anyone aimed to create monsters with poor attack sequences.

As cited earlier Horse with the Docile quality.
Emu, Undead Horsie...


Denorisn wrote:
Well that does suck. So you can combine as many primary attacks as you want. but you can't combine secndary together even if you only use secondary?

Well, you can combine as many as you want, it's just that they're secondary.

If you want a build with lots of Natural Attacks, then there are lots of ways to get lots of primary natural attacks. Be a Catgirl White Haired Witch with a Ring of Ratfangs and a Helm of the Mammoth Lord. And after that--because why not?--acquire a Tentacle Cloak, and take levels in Hexcrafter Magus and get Prehensile Hair and Nails, too!

If you really love one particular natural attack, get one, just that one, and invest in that. Like be a Kraken Caller Druid, meld your Tentacles all together; get Great Cleave, and cast Strong Jaw or something.

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