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A bunch of the armor descriptions list something like this:
Half-plate armor combines elements of full plate and chainmail, incorporating several sizable plates of sculpted metal with an underlying mesh of chain links. While this suit protects vital areas with several layers of armor, it is not sculpted to a single individual’s frame, reducing its wearer’s mobility even more than a suit of full plate. Half-plate armor includes gauntlets and a helm.
And the gauntlet description:
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplates) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
So, 3 questions:
First, if the armor is masterworked, are the gauntlet's also masterworked, and is this cost included in the armor's master working, or am I forced to pay for them together (300gp for each gauntlet and 150 for the armor for a total of 750gp to masterwork halfplate)?
Second, are the gauntlets that come with the armor, considered to be made from the same materials as the armor is? (for example, if I have adamantine armor, are the included gauntlets also considered adamantine?)
Third, If the armor is enchanted, are the gauntlet's included in this enchantment (and therefore ineligible for weapon enchantments)? Or are they enchanted separately?
Third is easiest to answer: No. Gauntlets are weapons, not eligible fkr armor enhancements
The other two are iffy, and I don't think there is explicit rukes text. I'd err towards no for both, because I'd be skeptical of getting anywhere from 300 to thousands of gp for free being intended.
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Third is easiest to answer: No. Gauntlets are weapons, not eligible fkr armor enhancements
The other two are iffy, and I don't think there is explicit rukes text. I'd err towards no for both, because I'd be skeptical of getting anywhere from 300 to thousands of gp for free being intended.
The special material one is very important, as the gauntlets are part of the armor, as far as I can tell. So if a Druid, in example, has Green Dragonhide Halfplate, the gauntlet's not being made of Dragonhide could impose problems due to their metallic nature. And Dragonhide is specifically non-metallic.
As for getting things for free, that's only one way you could handle it. The other would be a rather dramatic increase in the cost to masterwork armor (or for special materials).
In example:
Halfplate is 600gp base. 750gp with masterwork. If the included guantlets must be masterwork with the armor, the cost goes up to 1,350gp for masterwork halfplate. Dragonhide would be double the masterwork cost, so 2,700gp to have masterwork halfplate.
Although Dragonhide doesn't really add any offensive abilities to the Gauntlets.
The gauntlet weight, as I understand it, is already included in the armor, so primitive materials are largely unaffected.
Regarding Adamantium and other materials that charge per item, you could charge for both gauntlets and the armor, though your looking at an extra 3,000gp foe each guantlet on top of the already high cost 15,000gp for adamantium heavy armor. This one seems much more iffy, as the gauntlets are clearly part of the armor and the armor's high cost dwarfs the cost for adamantium weapons.
1: Gauntlets are masterwork armor. Being masterwork armor and being masterwork weapons are completely unrelated. Also, gauntlets are not weapons.
2: I'd say yes. Also, gauntlets are not weapons.
3: Being enchanted as armor and being enchanted as a weapon are two completely unrelated things. One kid of enchantment neither works as the other, or blocks it. Also, gauntlets are not weapons.
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1: Gauntlets are masterwork armor. Being masterwork armor and being masterwork weapons are completely unrelated. Also, gauntlets are not weapons.
2: I'd say yes. Also, gauntlets are not weapons.
3: Being enchanted as armor and being enchanted as a weapon are two completely unrelated things. One kid of enchantment neither works as the other, or blocks it. Also, gauntlets are not weapons.
Also, gauntlets are weapons. They are described in the weapon section of the book, which describes how they function... when used as weapons. They are weapons.
Also, they are weapons. But they are also part of armor.Just as shields are armor... and they are weapons. You may never use your shield as a weapon, that does not prevent it from being a weapon.
Treat your answer here the same way you would treat shields.
A shield can be given a +1 armor enchantment. They can also be given a +1 weapon enchantment. These are separate and never interact.
Read up on how shields treat being armor and being weapons.
Also... the guantlets question is kind of a can of worms. It has conflicting rules and has not, to my knowledge, been clarified.
Such as a gauntlet is supposed to change your unarmed damage to armed... but it then has a stat saying how much damage they do.
They are also described as being metal... which is a no-no for druids. Yet in heavier armor they are wearing gauntlets as part of the armor...
By RAW, gauntlets are a mess.
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750gp to masterwork halfplate)?
adamantine armor, are the included gauntlets also considered adamantine?)
Or are they enchanted separately?
Yes if you want the weapon gauntlet's MW also
Yes adamantine
Enchanted separately
That's not the question.
Since I want to make armor using a special property, do I have to mastercraft the gauntlets (and pay for any related special material costs) as if the gauntlets were weapons in addition to being included with the armor?
If yes, why? And if no, why not?
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Wizard shouldn't shoot the food, wizard needs food badly.
Oh, not that kind of Gauntlet question?
Since the RAW don't really go into details, this is a question for you and your DM to work out in a logical manner.
1) As long as you're not trying to enchant the gauntlets with any special weapon enchantments, just ignore them. Pay the cost to Masterwork the armor, then enchant it with whatever powers are appropriate. The end. If, later, you wind up hitting somebody with your gauntlet, you'll use the standard rules for that, with no weapon enchantments. If the armor is made from a special material, that should still count for the gauntlet.
2) If you want to enchant the gauntlets as weapons, OK, but treat each one as a separate weapon with its own costs (masterworking plus enchantment) kind of like a double weapon.
As far as a gauntlet not being a weapon... if a cestus is a weapon, a gauntlet sure is, too.
YMMV. The RAW don't say, so go with what works for you & your DM.
make armor using a special propertyYou'd have masterwork armor with masterwork armor gauntlets that are non masterwork weapon gauntlets.
Why is this hard?
If it's not hard, then it would be helpful to show some rules quotes.
I am particularly interested in where it says that gauntlets count as armor in any way, shape or form. Also, as far as I know there is no precedent for "masterwork-armor", "masterwork-weapon", or any other "kind" of masterwork. According to every piece of rules text I remember seeing, either something is masterwork or it isn't, with no qualifications beyond that. I would really be interested in seeing where in the rules this concept of masterwork "type" comes into play.
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I am particularly interested in where it says that gauntlets count as armor in any way, shape or form. Also, as far as I know there is no precedent for "masterwork-armor", "masterwork-weapon", or any other "kind" of masterwork. According to every piece of rules text I remember seeing, either something is masterwork or it isn't, with no qualifications beyond that. I would really be interested in seeing where in the rules this concept of masterwork "type" comes into play.
Unclear if they count as armor per say, but they are definitely part of the armor when purchased, as per their own description. I've got the quotes in the OP.
So, if making an item with special materials requires it to be masterwork, then the gauntlets which are clearly part of the armor should definitely be included in that. Whether this constitutes an independent cost, I remain unclear. What is clear is that the special materials require the item to be masterwork and the gauntlets are certainly part of the item.
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make armor using a special propertyYou'd have masterwork armor with masterwork armor gauntlets that are non masterwork weapon gauntlets.
Why is this hard?
Full Plate
This metal suit comprises multiple pieces of interconnected and overlaying metal plates, incorporating the benefits of numerous types of lesser armor. A complete suit of full plate (or platemail, as it is often called) includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armor. Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4 x 100) gold pieces.
The Gauntlets are part of a complete suit of full plate. You can't partially masterwork it (as far as I know). So is the cost for just the armor, or must a person add in the cost for masterworking the other two weapons?
So regarding adamantine:
Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
Is the cost for Adamantine Full Plate that as listed for Heavy Armor, or is it heavy armor and 2 weapons?
Special materials should simply be calculated for the armor - the gauntlets are "included" since they are part of the armor.
As far as adding weapon enchantements to the gauntlets, my gut feeling is that you should pay the Masterworking cost separately for each one, as a weapon(representing wicked sharp flanges, spikes or whatever to make it a better weapon, and not just hand protection).
This said, if a player wanted to insist that the gauntlets were already Masterworked, based on the 150gp cost for the armor, I wouldn't stand in his way. It just isn't that significant a price issue.
<shrug>
A bunch of the armor descriptions list something like this:
Half-plate armor combines elements of full plate and chainmail, incorporating several sizable plates of sculpted metal with an underlying mesh of chain links. While this suit protects vital areas with several layers of armor, it is not sculpted to a single individual’s frame, reducing its wearer’s mobility even more than a suit of full plate. Half-plate armor includes gauntlets and a helm.And the gauntlet description:
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplates) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.So, 3 questions:
First, if the armor is masterworked, are the gauntlet's also masterworked, and is this cost included in the armor's master working, or am I forced to pay for them together (300gp for each gauntlet and 150 for the armor for a total of 750gp to masterwork halfplate)?
Second, are the gauntlets that come with the armor, considered to be made from the same materials as the armor is? (for example, if I have adamantine armor, are the included gauntlets also considered adamantine?)
Third, If the armor is enchanted, are the gauntlet's included in this enchantment (and therefore ineligible for weapon enchantments)? Or are they enchanted separately?
For Refference: Masterwork Weapons and Masterwork Armour. And here's Adamantine
Here's how I'd rule it:
First: If the armour is masterwork, are the gauntlets masterwork?
No. The Masterwork enhancement for armour reduces armour-check penalties, and gauntlets don't have an armour-check penalty. They get no benefit from this.
Second:* Are the gauntlets considered the same material as the armour?
No. Since removing the gauntlets entirely has no effect on the AC enhancement (or other statistics) the armour provides, you can throw them away if you don't like them and have no ill-effects.
Third: If the Armour is enchanted are the gauntlets enchanted?
No. The enhancement bonus to armour is an AC bonus and doesn't help weapons at all (similar to the masterwork enhancements). Gauntlets can be enhanced as weapons, but that requires a separate set of costs.
*Points 1 and 3 are absolutely RAW, but number 2 is a bit fuzzy. If someone pays 15000gp for adamantine plate-armour that comes with adamantine gauntlets, they now bypass up to 20 hardness with their unarmed strikes. Is that overpowered? Probably not. However it isn't mentioned anywhere in the descriptions for armours made from special materials. I went with a "NO" for this because the pricing of adamantine armour seems a pretty consistent 5000gp per 1 point of damage reduction. Adding the ability to bypass hardness comes with it's own cost (3000gp/weapon).
Having said all of that, by the time someone has 15 000gp to spend on adamantine armour that comes with its own gauntlets, giving them the ability to ignore hardness with their unarmed attacks is probably not going to break the game. If it came up I'd probably let it work, but my interpretation of the rules as written is that you don't get a weapon bonus from buying armour.
[Edit:] I'm rethinking Number 2 and my rationale for it. Gauntlets by RAW let you deal lethal damage with your unarmed strikes, so by RAW a suit of plate-armour is enhancing your unarmed strikes anyway. Having the special material (adamantine etc) effect them could be intentional as well. I still think the pricing implies that you don't get that benefit, but I'm open to discussion.
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For Refference: Masterwork Weapons and Masterwork Armour. And here's Adamantine
Here's how I'd rule it:First: If the armour is masterwork, are the gauntlets masterwork?
No. The Masterwork enhancement for armour reduces armour-check penalties, and gauntlets don't have an armour-check penalty. They get no benefit from this.Second:* Are the gauntlets considered the same material as the armour?
No. Since removing the gauntlets entirely has no effect on the AC enhancement (or other statistics) the armour provides, you can throw them away if you don't like them and have no ill-effects.Third: If the Armour is enchanted are the gauntlets enchanted?
No. The enhancement bonus to armour is an AC bonus and doesn't help weapons at all (similar to the masterwork enhancements). Gauntlets can be enhanced as weapons, but that requires a separate set of costs.*Points 1 and 3 are absolutely RAW, but number 2 is a bit fuzzy. If someone pays 15000gp for adamantine plate-armour that comes with adamantine gauntlets, they now bypass up to 20 hardness with their unarmed strikes. Is that overpowered? Probably not. However it isn't mentioned anywhere in the descriptions for armours made from special materials. I went with a "NO" for this because the pricing of adamantine armour seems a pretty consistent 5000gp per 1 point of damage reduction. Adding the ability to bypass hardness comes with it's own cost (3000gp/weapon).
Having said all of that, by the time someone has 15 000gp to spend on adamantine armour that comes with its own gauntlets, giving them the ability to ignore hardness with their unarmed attacks is probably not going to break the game. If it came up I'd probably let it work, but my interpretation of the rules as written is that you don't get a weapon bonus from buying armour.[Edit:] I'm rethinking Number 2 and my rationale for it. Gauntlets by RAW let you deal lethal damage with your unarmed strikes, so by RAW a suit of plate-armour is enhancing your unarmed strikes anyway. Having the special material (adamantine etc) effect them could be intentional as well. I still think the pricing implies that you don't get that benefit, but I'm open to discussion.
Ugh, hate the auto-cut off from this site. Hope I got your quote right.
So #1 regards the benefits of masterwork is correct, but they aren't separate bonuses. The item is masterworked, and the item's type affect both the cost to masterwork and effects of masterworking.
Now, there is an interesting bit in the masterwork armor entry you linked:
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can’t create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. However, you can create masterwork armor spikes and shield spikes, which do confer their enhancement bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes.
One could certainly suggest that if gauntlets are purchased as part of the armor, then they qualify as armor that can be used as weapons just like shields. That is a reasonable conclusion.
Though, regarding adamantine, RAW, it applies to the armor and makes the gaunlets (which are part of the armor) into adamantine gauntlets.
Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given.
Granted, you could argue that despite being masterwork, it is armor and therefore doesn't benefit from the +1 on attack rolls, but the other properties (Like the special properties of adamantine) should remain.
Regarding #2, that would be up to your GM. RAW, the gauntlets are part of the armor as detailed in each armor's description (with some noted exceptions, like breastplate), just like the helm and other included components. Removing or adding the gauntlets should, in theory, be part of donning and removing the armor as detailed in the core rulebook. I'm sure the GM would allow you to partially remove armor if you need bare skin for a second, but as written the gauntlets are part of many armors.
As for #3, I remain unclear if gauntlets bought as part of the armor can be enchanted at all. It is feasible that gauntlets function like a shield bash in regard to enchanting - they can't be enchanted, but you could mount weapons in them and enchant those as weapons (like shield spikes for shields and held weapons for gauntlets).
I do think a gauntlet bought independently of the armor would be a weapon and not armor at all. I remain unclear if you could swap a bought gauntlet for one that came with a set of armor, or if doing so would compromise the design (not to mention, be very close to the piecemeal armor rules).
On a side note, as weapons, gauntlets really suck. 1d3 damage for a medium character, just sucks. Yeah, a high strength character could add a bit to that, but there are so many better weapons. I don't think that including them free as part of special materials is unreasonable or game breaking.
As I read it, none of the light armors include gauntlets, so your looking at at least 10k for adamantine armor sets with "free" gauntlets. With proper adamantine weapons being a meager 3k each. Especially for PFS, the 10k requirement is a big ceiling, with 27 fame needed (27 fame is 4-5th level).
1: Gauntlets are masterwork armor. Being masterwork armor and being masterwork weapons are completely unrelated. Also, gauntlets are not weapons.
2: I'd say yes. Also, gauntlets are not weapons.
3: Being enchanted as armor and being enchanted as a weapon are two completely unrelated things. One kid of enchantment neither works as the other, or blocks it. Also, gauntlets are not weapons.
make armor using a special propertyYou'd have masterwork armor with masterwork armor gauntlets that are non masterwork weapon gauntlets.
Why is this hard?
It's hard because gauntlets are weapons and not armor.
Regarding #2, that would be up to your GM. RAW, the gauntlets are part of the armor as detailed in each armor's description (with some noted exceptions, like breastplate), just like the helm and other included components. Removing or adding the gauntlets should, in theory, be part of donning and removing the armor as detailed in the core rulebook. I'm sure the GM would allow you to partially remove armor if you need bare skin for a second, but as written the gauntlets are part of many armors.
My reasoning for being able to throw away your gauntlets was based on being able to replace them with another set of gauntlets (if you want spiked gauntlets for example).
It never occurred to me that they might be required as part of the armour (an unexpected downside of heavy armour is that they take up the gauntlet slot?).I honestly don't see letting someone get their gauntlets to be weapons as a particular problem, but I do think the rules wouldn't support a weapon enhancement from your armour.
Just my 2 cents, keep discussing though, I'm interested.
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show some rules quotes.
The burden is on you, to show a rules quote that elevates something beyond the default.
The default is if you want something to be a masterwork weapon, you pay the 300 gp. If you don't, then it isn't a masterwork weapon.
It's hard because gauntlets are weapons and not armor.
Actually when I wrote that, I didn't fully understand the OP angle was to try to rules quote a way into having your cake and eating it too.
You don't get Masterwork weapons unless you handle them by paying for masterwork weapons even if they are on masterwork armor.
It isn't hard because there isn't a rule saying it works that way, so you are left with some masterwork armor that includes non-masterwork gauntlets.
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Again, Hero Lab may not be right, but that is how it interprets it.
I get from you that HL charges 1,650 for MW Full Plate, the attack bonus on the gauntlet don't increase, and the damage on the gauntlet doesn't increase if the Full Plate is made +1.
Yes, that is the most reasonable interpretation of the rules. HL tends to follow the reasonable interpretations, except in cases where HL has bugs.
For this issue, there isn't any rule (or even a hint of a rule) to suggest buying Masterwork Full Plate conveys any benefit whatsoever to the Gauntlet when used to attack.
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My reasoning for being able to throw away your gauntlets was based on being able to replace them with another set of gauntlets (if you want spiked gauntlets for example).
It never occurred to me that they might be required as part of the armour (an unexpected downside of heavy armour is that they take up the gauntlet slot?).I honestly don't see letting someone get their gauntlets to be weapons as a particular problem, but I do think the rules wouldn't support a weapon enhancement from your armour.
Just my 2 cents, keep discussing though, I'm interested.
You bring up another point of unclarity, as the armor is a slot of it's own, so it becomes unclear if the gauntlets would occupy an additional slot, or if the idea is they are simultaneously worn with other glove slot items. Many armors include a helm too. As written, I think the armor is it's own slot and doesn't interfere with other slots. Though I'm really not sure on this point.
It isn't hard because there isn't a rule saying it works that way, so you are left with some masterwork armor that includes non-masterwork gauntlets.
That is not RAW. As per the quotes already given, the Gauntlets are one PART of the suit of armor.
Now, does masterworking the armor give the Gauntlet a +1 to attack? I agree that it depends on how much you pay for the masterworking of the armor.
That said, I don't think your stance of partially masterworking a suit of armor is RAW or legal. As written, all characters buying masterwork full plate will gain masterwork gauntlets. Now, if the gauntlets are treated as weapons with regard to masterworking, the cost of the masterwork armor is going to go up by 600gp (two gauntlets). As I see it, this is not an optional component of the armor.
And regarding adamantine, it becomes more vague, as the cost of adamantine armor includes masterworking costs.
Additionally, I don't think the gauntlets included with armor can be sold independently of that armor.
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Gauntlets are one PART of the suit of armor.
Now, does masterworking the armor give the Gauntlet a +1 to attack?
That said, I don't think your stance of partially masterworking a suit of armor is RAW or legal.
And regarding adamantine, it becomes more vague, as the cost of adamantine armor includes masterworking costs.
Additionally, I don't think the gauntlets included with armor can be sold independently of that armor.
Gauntlet of the armor are part of the armor, can't be sold, yes.
There is no text in the book that I'll accept to be used to get Masterwork Gauntlets for melee attack and/or damage without paying the masterwork prices for weapons. You can say your skewed view is RAW as much as you wish, I don't agree it's RAW and I won't accept your stance at any game.
Event with Adamantine Armor, you still have non-masterwork Weapons. If you pay the Masterwork fee, and the armor is adamantine, I'd be fine with it now being Masterwork Gauntlets made of Adamantine.
Gauntlets are weapons1: Gauntlets are masterwork armor. Being masterwork armor and being masterwork weapons are completely unrelated. Also, gauntlets are not weapons.
2: I'd say yes. Also, gauntlets are not weapons.
3: Being enchanted as armor and being enchanted as a weapon are two completely unrelated things. One kid of enchantment neither works as the other, or blocks it. Also, gauntlets are not weapons.
Text trumps table, and the text strongly suggests that gauntlets aren't weapons.
However, I looked into it, and the debate around monks with enchanted gauntlets (and brass knuckles) makes it clear that gauntlets are in fact weapons (with official recognition that the text in the CRB is misleading).
the text strongly suggests that gauntlets aren't weapons.
hwat
I'm curious as to what you're reading because there is no piece of text I know of that suggests they aren't.
They're listed as weapons. They have a damage number. They're in a Weapon Group. There's a whole long description of the mechanics of gauntlets used as weapons in the CRB and Ultimate Equipment.
There wasn't any need to dig as deep into this as you did to solve that grand mystery.
The only one I've played is Seven Sorrows, sadly, which was decidedly mediocre.
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Okay, so we've exhausted most of the quotes, I'd like to get a conclusion, if only a temporary one.
I think my main question boils down to this one:
Are the gauntlets part of a full set of armor (like full plate or halfplate), or are they extra items that are included with the armor?
Like, is the suit of armor like an adventures kit, where it is several items that are being sold as a set, or is it a single item which is the entire suit of armor?
The gauntlets being weapons or not is a side topic from the above, as the key question (and debate) seems to be regarding how many items they count as for special properties and masterworking.
At this point, a consensus on the above questions is enough for me. I don't really think we have enough quotes to define this one anymore that we already have.
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My reading of the RAW.
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In the "special materials" section of both Pathfinder Core Rulebook and Ultimate Equipment, a weapon or armor that is crafted from a certain special materials (mithril, adamantine, blood crystal, etc) is automatically masterwork.
So, if you're dealing with a complete suit of adamantine armor, the gauntlets are automatically masterwork, per RAW. There is no separate 300gp price from masterworking. The special material cost takes care of it.
Now, as far as a common steel gauntlet is concerned from a masterwork suit of armor. Unfortunately, on that one, I would have to agree with the others. It'd require +300gp to focus attention on the gauntlets to make them masterwork in terms of weapon efficiency.
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So, if you're dealing with a complete suit of adamantine armor, the gauntlets are automatically masterwork, per RAW. There is no separate 300gp price from masterworking.
Your RAW, not my RAW. Plus you don't have a rule saying that a masterwork armor conveys the masterwork property to the Gauntlets when used as a weapon instead of as armor.
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Hah...thought of another angle. Doesn't really help get an answer, but doesn't seem like dirk or risner are going to agree anytime soon.
Gauntlets can't be disarmed, as per their own text. How quickly can they be removed?
I'd argue they are part of the armor, and therefore require the described duration for donning and removing armor.
That said, if you consider them weapons, they should be able to be dropped as a free action.
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So, if you're dealing with a complete suit of adamantine armor, the gauntlets are automatically masterwork, per RAW. There is no separate 300gp price from masterworking.Your RAW, not my RAW. Plus you don't have a rule saying that a masterwork armor conveys the masterwork property to the Gauntlets when used as a weapon instead of as armor.
There literally is no RAW to handle this, one person's or another's(whatever that is supposed to mean). A weapon is a weapon. Armor is armor. Never the two should meet... yet, shields.
The shield question is still unanswered. For the sake of making the game work and be fun... I honestly suggest leaving gauntlets as only weapons.
There is no armor definition for gauntlets. But there IS a weapon definition. Just some armor comes with some kind of 'gauntlet'. So... we assume(realy, pretend) that armor that comes with gauntlets do... but they are armor gauntlets not weapon gauntlets.
It makes sure you aren't getting free special material or masterwork for a weapon. It best fits the mechanics of the game. It makes the question go away. Only presenting a new question, one that the game can continue despite... 'What is an armor only gauntlet?'
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Hah...thought of another angle. Doesn't really help get an answer, but doesn't seem like dirk or risner are going to agree anytime soon.
Gauntlets can't be disarmed, as per their own text. How quickly can they be removed?
I'd argue they are part of the armor, and therefore require the described duration for donning and removing armor.
That said, if you consider them weapons, they should be able to be dropped as a free action.
This is very much no.
Armor removal is for the entire set. Gauntlets are literally a type of glove. Though, offering better protection than Nana's woollies.They should take some amount to remove as you do not hold them... but there are no rules for it. I'd suggest between swift and move.
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Actually when I wrote that, I didn't fully understand the OP angle was to try to rules quote a way into having your cake and eating it too.
On a side note, my original question was actually trying to figure out if I can get Dragonhide Gauntlets, though the topic mutated quite a bit and I'm interested more in where it is going now, than my original reason for the original question.
Dragonhide only makes armor, and confers no benefit for weapons EXCEPT that things made from dragonhide are immune to a specific energy type. Mind you, this immunity only applies to the item and has no effect on the wearer. But if the wearer is already immune and they go for a swim or bath in a pool of energy, they'll lose their gauntlets if the gauntlets aren't also immune...pretty silly, but that was "cake and eat it too" I was going for.
Anyway, still interested in how this one resolves.
On a side note:
My reading of the RAW.
Full Plate requires Gauntlets and comes with a pair.
If I sundered and destroy one of your non-adamantine gauntlets, do you lose your adamantine fullplate armor bonus until you put on another gauntlet?
Honestly seems pretty iffy that the gauntlets are considered separate from the armor, but also are required for the armor.
I think the intention is that gauntlets aren't weapons, and that they (as described) just allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes. (Non-monk) Unarmed strikes are still weapons with the same exact profile as the Gauntlets. That's the easiest option from a rules interaction standpoint.
So masterwork adamantine armor would not confer any masterwork melee weapon bonuses, nor apply any weapon related effects to their gauntlets because the gauntlets just aren't weapons. And you couldn't enchant them separately, because they aren't two items.
Mind you, that may be the easiest interpretation, but it isn't RAW.
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Actually when I wrote that, I didn't fully understand the OP angle was to try to rules quote a way into having your cake and eating it too.On a side note, my original question was actually trying to figure out if I can get Dragonhide Gauntlets, though the topic mutated quite a bit and I'm interested more in where it is going now, than my original reason for the original question.
Dragonhide only makes armor, and confers no benefit for weapons EXCEPT that things made from dragonhide are immune to a specific energy type. Mind you, this immunity only applies to the item and has no effect on the wearer. But if the wearer is already immune and they go for a swim or bath in a pool of energy, they'll lose their gauntlets if the gauntlets aren't also immune...pretty silly, but that was "cake and eat it too" I was going for.
Anyway, still interested in how this one resolves.
On a side note:
My reading of the RAW.
Full Plate requires Gauntlets and comes with a pair.
If I sundered and destroy one of your non-adamantine gauntlets, do you lose your adamantine fullplate armor bonus until you put on another gauntlet?
Honestly seems pretty iffy that the gauntlets are considered separate from the armor, but also are required for the armor.
I think the intention is that gauntlets aren't weapons, and that they (as described) just allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes. (Non-monk) Unarmed strikes are still weapons with the same exact profile as the Gauntlets. That's the easiest option from a rules interaction standpoint.
So masterwork adamantine armor would not confer any masterwork melee weapon bonuses, nor apply any weapon related effects to their gauntlets because the gauntlets just aren't weapons. And you couldn't enchant them separately, because they aren't two items.
Mind you, that may be the easiest interpretation, but it isn't RAW.
Yes, you can get dragonhide gauntlets. If your armor comes with gauntlets. It is questionable what that means, though.
You can not, in RAW, get new gauntlets with dragonhide. As, by RAW, gauntlets are made of metal.
Luckily, that is what GMs are for. To handle edge cases and help make sense of silly situations that can be caused by the rules.
It is reasonable to ask your GM if you can purchase dragonhide gauntlets by themselves. They may say yes or no. But it is not in the rules.
Also if you remove your gauntlets it has no effect on your AC or armors enchantment bonus. They may also be replaced by hand worn magical items with no mechanical penalties.
So... in PFS you are SOL. But in a home game, it is up to the GM to fill in where the rules left off.
Good luck!
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Hmm...
Gauntlets, assuming they are weapons, would be hardness 10 (light, metal-hafted weapons) and would have 10 HP.
Meanwhile Masterwork Adamantine Fullplate is hardness 20 and has 60 HP...
Yeah, if gauntlets are mandatory weapons for heavy armor, but aren't considered automatically the same material as the armor, Gauntlets really scream "sunder me!"
Though, even if the same material, treating the weapons as mandatory parts of the armor really screws them from a sundering standpoint.
Masterwork Adamantine Gauntlet is Hardness 20 and has 13 HP.
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Yes, you can get dragonhide gauntlets. If your armor comes with gauntlets. It is questionable what that means, though.
You can not, in RAW, get new gauntlets with dragonhide. As, by RAW, gauntlets are made of metal.
Luckily, that is what GMs are for. To handle edge cases and help make sense of silly situations that can be caused by the rules.
It is reasonable to ask your GM if you can purchase dragonhide gauntlets by themselves. They may say yes or no. But it is not in the rules.
Also if you remove your gauntlets it has no effect on your AC or armors enchantment bonus. They may also be replaced by hand worn magical items with no mechanical penalties.
So... in PFS you are SOL. But in a home game, it is up to the GM to fill in where the rules left off.
Good luck!
Yeah, PFS.
Though regarding Dragonhide, techincally speaking, in PFS the only items that can be made are: "Full Plate, Halfplate, Banded Mail, Light Shields, and Heavy shields." Thanks to a very poorly worded description with regards to what can be made (and PFS's hardball interpretation that only mentioned items can be bought).
Gauntlets being a huge grey area, as they are specifically included in Full Plate, Half Plate, and Banded Mail, but are not directly mentioned in the Dragonhide entry.
If gauntlets are free weapons that "tag along" with full plate, then Dragonhide can't make Gauntlets in PFS. But, if they are part of the armor, the Dragonhide is a perfectly viable option for the full plate (and the gauntlets included).
PS: It specifically says druids can wear normally-metal armors that are made of Dragonhide.
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Yes, you can get dragonhide gauntlets. If your armor comes with gauntlets. It is questionable what that means, though.
You can not, in RAW, get new gauntlets with dragonhide. As, by RAW, gauntlets are made of metal.
Luckily, that is what GMs are for. To handle edge cases and help make sense of silly situations that can be caused by the rules.
It is reasonable to ask your GM if you can purchase dragonhide gauntlets by themselves. They may say yes or no. But it is not in the rules.
Also if you remove your gauntlets it has no effect on your AC or armors enchantment bonus. They may also be replaced by hand worn magical items with no mechanical penalties.
So... in PFS you are SOL. But in a home game, it is up to the GM to fill in where the rules left off.
Good luck!
Yeah, PFS.
Though regarding Dragonhide, techincally speaking, in PFS the only items that can be made are: "Full Plate, Halfplate, Banded Mail, Light Shields, and Heavy shields." Thanks to a very poorly worded description with regards to what can be made (and PFS's hardball interpretation that only mentioned items can be bought).
Gauntlets being a huge grey area, as they are specifically included in Full Plate, Half Plate, and Banded Mail, but are not directly mentioned in the Dragonhide entry.
If gauntlets are free weapons that "tag along" with full plate, then Dragonhide can't make Gauntlets in PFS. But, if they are part of the armor, the Dragonhide is a perfectly viable option for the full plate (and the gauntlets included).
PS: It specifically says druids can wear normally-metal armors that are made of Dragonhide.
If you want a real answer your only hope, I fear, is to start a new thread with a title and original post designed toward asking the devs to explain/repair the rules for gauntlets.
Include that gauntlets come with armor. Include a question on masterwork, special materials and enchantments.
PS: It specifically says druids can wear normally-metal armors that are made of Dragonhide.
Another way to look at this is that Gauntlets are listed as weapons, and therefore not restricted to non-metal for druids, so you're probably fine.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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There literally is no RAW to handle this
A weapon is a weapon. Armor is armor. Never the two should meet... yet, shields.'What is an armor only gauntlet?'
You are right there is no rule to handle using a suit of armor to attack.
You are also right that rules have lots of special rules that summarize as "you can't use armor parts of the shield to make an attack, you need to separately enhance the weapon parts of the shield."
I'd say the armor part of a gauntlet is a generic non-masterwork weapon on the table.
If I sundered and destroy one of your non-adamantine gauntlets, do you lose your adamantine fullplate armor bonus until you put on another gauntlet?
If you don't have separately purchased Gauntlets, then your Gauntlets are part of your Full Plate. They would need to Sunder the Full Plate.
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Lol...Okay, just to further confuse things. Found the "Locked Gauntlet" Entry in the Core Rulebook. It is listed as extras, in the ARMOR table. Also no errata.
Gauntlet, Locked: This armored gauntlet has small chains and braces that allow the wearer to attach a weapon to the gauntlet so that it cannot be dropped easily. It provides a +10 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense to keep from being disarmed in combat. Removing a
weapon from a locked gauntlet or attaching a weapon to a locked gauntlet is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.The price given is for a single locked gauntlet. The weight given applies only if you’re wearing a breastplate, light armor, or no armor. Otherwise, the locked gauntlet replaces a gauntlet you already have as part of the armor.
While the gauntlet is locked, you can’t use the hand
wearing it for casting spells or employing skills. (You can still cast spells with somatic components, provided that your other hand is free.)Like a normal gauntlet, a locked gauntlet lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike.
The entry for the Locked Gauntlet is the same in Ultimate Equipment, as is it's place on the Armor Table.
Your RAW, not my RAW. Plus you don't have a rule saying that a masterwork armor conveys the masterwork property to the Gauntlets when used as a weapon instead of as armor.
Seriously, how is the Core Rulebook not RAW for pathfinder?
Armor made from adamantine grants its wearer damage reduction of 1/— if it’s light armor, 2/— if it’s medium armor, and 3/— if it’s heavy armor. Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
There is absolutely no wiggle room for interpretation here. It doesn't matter how the weapon or armor came to exisit. If it's made out of mithril or adamantine it is masterwork. Period.
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Of course, leather, steel, bronze, bone, wood, etc... don't have this assumption built in. I can see how a bunch of non-masterwork components came add up to a masterwork whole. (Obviously, the buckles and the straps for a masterwork breastplate don't necessarily need to be masterwork. The scabbard for the sword doesn't necessarily have to be masterwork either, etc.) - Obviously, for these materials the gauntlets would need a separate masterwork price for them as a weapon in addition to their status as an armor.
A masterwork shield (no spikes) does not get a masterwork bonus applied to it when making a shield bash because it was not masterworked as a weapon. - Unless it was made out of adamantine, mithril or other material that is considered masterwork in of itself, then it would ned a separate price.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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OS_Dirk, the only problem you have is that you think you are the one who gets to dictate the meaning of a rule and what the RAW interpretation should be. You are not.
In your RAW, it may work.
In my RAW, it does not.
My RAW makes sense to me.
Your RAW makes sense to you.
I have confidence if it went to FAQ land, my version would be the result.