As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced "coo day grahs") to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
If your spell somehow involves a melee weapon (I think spiritual weapon would qualify, but that's a cleric spell), then yes. Ditto for a bow or a crossbow (ironically, you can't CdG with a firearm or sling by rules-as-written). Otherwise, no.
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"Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity."
That is a melee attack. But, you wouldn't be able to cast and CDG in the same turn unless the spell was quickened.
Rays are ranged weapons, and plenty of GMs would allow ranged attacks to be CDGs. Just as plenty allow firearms to CDG. But, the spell would also need to be quickened.
Remember, a CDG is a full round action.
Can a wizard use a spell to coup de grace someone?
It's the Rules Forum so the official rule is no, unless it's explicitly creating a weapon. You can't CDG someone with magic missile, lightning bolt, or even scorching ray. You also can't use a firearm.
The rules are silly sometimes.
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As you can see, it is a bit of a rules quagmire. Technically, it says 'weapon' so if you are a looking at things super rules-as-written, then no, but that also means monks/brawlers/sacred fist warpriests can't coup-de-grace with their unarmed attacks. Also, it specifically only says bows and crossbows can coup-de-grace, so apparently stabbing someone in the throat with a Javalin (or acid arrow) doesn't count, RAW.
Most GMs allow things (like spells/attacks) to coup de grace if they can crit, so shocking grasp works, but magic missile does not. It's up to your GM to determine how they interpret the rules.
Of course, spells like icicle dagger, shadow weapon, and ghost whip which just make items for you are perfectly fine.
If you do enough damage to kill someone with a fireball, does it really matter that it does not have CDG mechanics attached to it?
If you do enough damage to kill someone with a fireball, does it really matter that it does not have CDG mechanics attached to it?
I believe the issue is more of people who don't do enough damage to kill someone with a fireball. Say you've got the big bad guy with 300 hit points. Your team's bard makes his intimidate roll to debuff him, your team's cleric casts prayer to debuff him further, and then your team's enchanter casts her Hold Person on him. Now the blaster wizard is up and he can either:
1) Uses the scyth he conveniently is holding to CDG and do 8d4 damage and then require the baddie to make a DC "that's a lot" fortitutde save or die. Odds are, the baddie is dead.
2) Uses a fireball he has memorized, do 10d6 damage with a DC "not that bad" reflex save for half. Odds are, that'll do next to no damage and you have an angry baddie. If he could CDG with his fireball, that would be 20d6 damage and then the baddie has to make a DC "HAHAHAHA, No way" fortitude save or die.
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If you do enough damage to kill someone with a fireball, does it really matter that it does not have CDG mechanics attached to it?
While that is normally true, there are times when a CDG is useful. There might be a certain adventure path out where on of the bosses has a redonkulous ability to stay alive into the negatives.
PC"I fireball his body dealing (roll) 26 damage!"
GM"Good, bad guy is still breathing"
PC"OMGWTFBBQ"
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If you do enough damage to kill someone with a fireball, does it really matter that it does not have CDG mechanics attached to it?I believe the issue is more of people who don't do enough damage to kill someone with a fireball. Say you've got the big bad guy with 300 hit points. Your team's bard makes his intimidate roll to debuff him, your team's cleric casts prayer to debuff him further, and then your team's enchanter casts her Hold Person on him. Now the blaster wizard is up and he can either:
1) Uses the scyth he conveniently is holding to CDG and do 8d4 damage and then require the baddie to make a DC "that's a lot" fortitutde save or die. Odds are, the baddie is dead.
2) Uses a fireball he has memorized, do 10d6 damage with a DC "not that bad" reflex save for half. Odds are, that'll do next to no damage and you have an angry baddie. If he could CDG with his fireball, that would be 20d6 damage and then the baddie has to make a DC "HAHAHAHA, No way" fortitude save or die.
Ninja'd. Also, I love your DCs!
Oh, and obviously the wizard does 8d4-3, as he has 5 strength. :p
Any touch spell or spell that creates a weapon can be used to coup de grace.
The spells will need to be active prior to making the attempt unless quickened.
- or you could be like me and have your wizard carry a switchblade scythe. Not that she's ever made a coup de grace attempt, but it looks impressive.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I *think* that a held charge on a touch spell counts as a weapon for most purposes, and therefore I *think* (if you've already got it cast from a previous round and are in position) you could CdG somebody with shocking grasp or whatever.
Careful, though: one time my team's witch Slumber Hex'd a remorrhaz and then CdG'd it with a scythe, only to watch it roll a natural 20 on the Fort save and wake up pissed, barely injured, and adjacent to the witch.
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I *think* that a held charge on a touch spell counts as a weapon for most purposes, and therefore I *think* (if you've already got it cast from a previous round and are in position) you could CdG somebody with shocking grasp or whatever.
Careful, though: one time my team's witch Slumber Hex'd a remorrhaz and then CdG'd it with a scythe, only to watch it roll a natural 20 on the Fort save and wake up pissed, barely injured, and adjacent to the witch.
1) Sadly, no. A held charge count's as 'armed.' It's still not a 'weapon' (can't be sundered, can't be disarmed, etc.) Like I said in my post, most GMs will allow it anyway.
2) That happened in a scenario we ran. We D.Doored in with the sorcerer, and the witch slumber cannoned the big bad fighter, and the rest of the party went to town on the other guys in the room. The Witch then took out his dagger and tried to coup de grace the fighter. Did 2 damage, and the fighter rolled a 17 or higher on his fort save.
Ooops.
Oh, and obviously the wizard does 8d4-3, as he has 5 strength. :pThe strength penalty is multiplied on a critical as well, giving the attack 8d4-12 damage (average 8, DC 18 Fort save). With such a low strength, the hypothetical wizard is much better off just using a large darkwood heavy crossbow for 4d8 damage (average 18, DC 28 Fort save).
-checks wizard character sheet: 11 strength. When she's not using Elemental Body to become an earth elemental.
I know, not even close to optimal. She's earth school, I went with the theme. Highest AC in the party :p
If you do enough damage to kill someone with a fireball, does it really matter that it does not have CDG mechanics attached to it?I believe the issue is more of people who don't do enough damage to kill someone with a fireball. Say you've got the big bad guy with 300 hit points. Your team's bard makes his intimidate roll to debuff him, your team's cleric casts prayer to debuff him further, and then your team's enchanter casts her Hold Person on him. Now the blaster wizard is up and he can either:
1) Uses the scyth he conveniently is holding to CDG and do 8d4 damage and then require the baddie to make a DC "that's a lot" fortitutde save or die. Odds are, the baddie is dead.
2) Uses a fireball he has memorized, do 10d6 damage with a DC "not that bad" reflex save for half. Odds are, that'll do next to no damage and you have an angry baddie. If he could CDG with his fireball, that would be 20d6 damage and then the baddie has to make a DC "HAHAHAHA, No way" fortitude save or die.
Ninja'd. Also, I love your DCs!
Oh, and obviously the wizard does 8d4-3, as he has 5 strength. :p
Than that's what the martial with the greatsword, or the archer with the longbow is for. A Wizard's job is to set up the kill, not solo it.
Oh, and obviously the wizard does 8d4-3, as he has 5 strength. :pThe strength penalty is multiplied on a critical as well, giving the attack 8d4-12 damage (average 8, DC 18 Fort save). With such a low strength, the hypothetical wizard is much better off just using a large darkwood heavy crossbow for 4d8 damage (average 18, DC 28 Fort save).-checks wizard character sheet: 11 strength. When she's not using Elemental Body to become an earth elemental.
I know, not even close to optimal. She's earth school, I went with the theme. Highest AC in the party :p
What is your AC?
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Paizo might want to state this where everyone can see it because it happens a lot. Otherwise people will think it is ok, just like that other thread where it is happening, assuming the thread is still active.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Paizo might want to state this where everyone can see it because it happens a lot. Otherwise people will think it is ok, just like that other thread where it is happening, assuming the thread is still active.
It is literally the first heading under the Community Guidelines, linked right below the Submit Post button:
There are all kinds of gamers here on paizo.com. Use of derogatory labels for other gamers can be hurtful and isolate others who enjoy different styles of play. You may find yourself in a debate on our messageboards, and disagreements are bound to happen. Focus on challenging the idea, rather than the others in the conversation. Remember that there’s another person on the other side of the screen. Please help us keep it fun!
So basically, it's there to be seen, it's just that most people don't actually bother to look at them. Sort of like how most people don't bother to go back and see whether it was their post that got deleted. Thus, specific and clear posts like Liz's are extremely valuable, as it's about the only chance that somebody might actually get some feedback that what they're doing is not okay.
Every post whose author never sees any pushback tends to be (unconsciously) taken as yet another data point that what it said was good and proper.
Paizo might want to state this where everyone can see it because it happens a lot. Otherwise people will think it is ok, just like that other thread where it is happening, assuming the thread is still active.It is literally the first heading under the Community Guidelines, linked right below the Submit Post button:
There are all kinds of gamers here on paizo.com. Use of derogatory labels for other gamers can be hurtful and isolate others who enjoy different styles of play. You may find yourself in a debate on our messageboards, and disagreements are bound to happen. Focus on challenging the idea, rather than the others in the conversation. Remember that there’s another person on the other side of the screen. Please help us keep it fun!
I think in that other post they actually thought optimizer meant "bad person". I realized that person was not going to budge and left the convo alone. I am sure they thought they did nothing wrong, which is why I called for this statement of "optimizing" not being used in a negative manner to be put in a better location.
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That was my bad. I regretted posting it as soon as I hit submit.
I didn't mean to get the thread off track, and I'm sorry.
Basically, I've just seen a lot of jerk players do really jerk things with wizards before. Has nothing to do with the class, and everything to do with the personality of the player. I shouldn't have used labels and been more specific with what I meant to say.
If you can use crossbows and bows then any other ranged attack should work. By the wording firearms don't work, but that should be errata'd if we requoit.
Prd:You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
Oh, and obviously the wizard does 8d4-3, as he has 5 strength. :pThe strength penalty is multiplied on a critical as well, giving the attack 8d4-12 damage (average 8, DC 18 Fort save). With such a low strength, the hypothetical wizard is much better off just using a large darkwood heavy crossbow for 4d8 damage (average 18, DC 28 Fort save).
That turns out not to be the case.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
A penalty is not a bonus. You do not add your penalties more than once, only your bonuses. If it said "all your usual modifiers" you would be correct.
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Countered by this. :)
Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
The critical hit rules do not specifically override the multiplying damage rules, and thus specific over general does not come into play. There is no actual contradiction.
Oh, and obviously the wizard does 8d4-3, as he has 5 strength. :pThe strength penalty is multiplied on a critical as well, giving the attack 8d4-12 damage (average 8, DC 18 Fort save). With such a low strength, the hypothetical wizard is much better off just using a large darkwood heavy crossbow for 4d8 damage (average 18, DC 28 Fort save).That turns out not to be the case.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.A penalty is not a bonus. You do not add your penalties more than once, only your bonuses. If it said "all your usual modifiers" you would be correct.
I treat the penalty as a negative bonus. You gonna dump str, you're gonna pay for it.
The rules draw a distinction between bonuses and modifiers, but I can't find a specific FAQ that addresses this. I thought there was one. Still, there is precedent in, for example, the way one does not subtract 1.5x your strength penalty when wielding a two-handed weapon with a low strength.
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Found it!
Determine Bonuses
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren't die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty.
I *think* that a held charge on a touch spell counts as a weapon for most purposes, and therefore I *think* (if you've already got it cast from a previous round and are in position) you could CdG somebody with shocking grasp or whatever.
Careful, though: one time my team's witch Slumber Hex'd a remorrhaz and then CdG'd it with a scythe, only to watch it roll a natural 20 on the Fort save and wake up pissed, barely injured, and adjacent to the witch.
1) Sadly, no. A held charge count's as 'armed.' It's still not a 'weapon' (can't be sundered, can't be disarmed, etc.) Like I said in my post, most GMs will allow it anyway.
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You could coup de grace with an unarmed strike and discharge the touch spell. I don't know if you would get double dice on the touch spell, though (although it won't matter about 19 times out of 20).
What is your AC?Oh, and obviously the wizard does 8d4-3, as he has 5 strength. :pThe strength penalty is multiplied on a critical as well, giving the attack 8d4-12 damage (average 8, DC 18 Fort save). With such a low strength, the hypothetical wizard is much better off just using a large darkwood heavy crossbow for 4d8 damage (average 18, DC 28 Fort save).-checks wizard character sheet: 11 strength. When she's not using Elemental Body to become an earth elemental.
I know, not even close to optimal. She's earth school, I went with the theme. Highest AC in the party :p
As a 9th level wizard I have a 33 AC when I have Elemental Body up.