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If my wife, sister (or eventually daughter) comes to me and tells me of their experience, dismissing it because it doesn't align with my experience / perceptions (Hint: Things are less noticeable when they're not directed at you) would be absurd. A bit of compassion and consideration never hurt anyone. Lack of it does.Dismissing it would be absurd, sure, but so would believing it unconditionally without fact-checking.
Emphasis mine. There is a huge difference between believing something unconditionally, and being willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt until/unless something is proven false.
I realize the internet/media loves to polarize any debate to the greatest extremes, but there exists a middle ground in which one can act with both reason and at least courtesy - and in real life, this is where most human behavior lies, in my experience. I generally run by the philosophy of "Do the least harm"; if someone is in pain, and giving them the benefit of the doubt will give them relief, give it; If someone is accused and demonizing them before proof is given would cause them pain, don't.
Again: A bit of compassion and consideration is never a bad thing :)
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We have women in our current gaming group, and have always had women in our gaming groups. We have never, and would never treat them any differently, why would you? Given, we're all in our 40's and 50's but even in our teens - potentially the worst age for the testosterone laden, we never treated women any differently. We're any one at our table to witness the behaviour mentioned in the article I am 100% certain it would not stand.
Like Geoffrey Pearl above we like to believe people are people, treat them with respect and dignity. People also have choice, possibly too much these days, and sadly some do choose to act like an a*%, ignorant of the fact that others have right to dignity. You probably need to exercise your right to point out that it's unacceptable.
I've played with 4 groups, 2 of which had 1 female player, 1 had 2.
I have noticed that the male players tend to be more leadership ended with the females just following along. Especially in the beginning when everyone is just developing/learning their characters. I try as a GM to get each players input on situations & strategies, especially outside of combat. I find that it provides a much more pleasant experience for everyone.
In one game it really allowed our Ranger (Lisa) to shine after our orc sorcerer (who had a chip on his shoulder & drinking problem) destroyed the artifact needed to weaken the big bad & our fighter (she had amazing stats) managed to critical fumble almost every attack then got decapitated. Prior to this the orc was in charge. Lisa managed to tame a wild dire badger to join the party & convince rescued captives to transport the fighters body so she could be properly laid to rest. Her & the drow druid also came up with inventive uses for his treant companion.
Not reading this entire thread.
Just adding my two copper.
*shrug*
People are people, whatever they are elsewise.
There's a gal in my Thursday group. She's a significant party member, and one of the ones with the most attention to detail (yes, taking notes is often helpful in a RPG).
There's no ladies in my Saturday group. Just aren't, and the tables full up, so that's not changing.
In the group I used to play in on Sunday there's a woman. She is interested in the AP for about three sessions maximum before she's distracted by other things, playing on her phone, and generally just being uninterested in what's going on (if you don't want to play, why are you here?)
There's a Monday night game that a few of my friends are in with a few ladies at the table. I don't like the playstyle of that group in general, so I chose not to play on Mondays.
I make no behavioral changes for gals in the gaming group.
Nothing for, nothing against.
No special problems, no special privileges.
People are people.
No more, no less.
My first group, in 1977, had 4 men, 2 women regulars, and 2 women who floated in and out for a bit before deciding (unbelievably) that school was more important than D&D. We never had any issues, besides the built-in sexism in AD&D, with different ability scores for different races and genders and a couple of uncomfortable moments. Not for one minute did I think those uncomfortable moments were anything more than immaturity and poor judgement, and still count almost all of the men in that group as dear friends, though they were strangers when we started.
I didn't get back into the game until 2005 and was shocked to find that there were issues at all. Granted, when we went to the war games store in 1977, there weren't other women there and we may have gotten funny looks, but I didn't think anything of it. In fact, I think our sole African-American gamer felt more out of place than the women, which made me sad.
Since restarting, I've gamed with friends and strangers and not had any problem. At one gaming con, I hardly got to say anything at the table, but we had one very dominating player (a man) whom the GM allowed to run the game for the rest of us, and we weren't assertive enough to object. I don't see that as a gender issue simply because a man was dominant. There were a lot of us who were shut down.
I have had more problems with bumping and groping at home improvement stores than in gaming stores. At gaming stores, it's more like I don't exist.
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My current gaming group is 3 women, 4 guys. We are a mix of genders, races, and sexualities. We don't really have any issues with what we do or whom we are. We have fun.
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We have fun.
Aye, there's the crux of things, isn't it! :D
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If my wife, sister (or eventually daughter) comes to me and tells me of their experience, dismissing it because it doesn't align with my experience / perceptions (Hint: Things are less noticeable when they're not directed at you) would be absurd. A bit of compassion and consideration never hurt anyone. Lack of it does.Dismissing it would be absurd, sure, but so would believing it unconditionally without fact-checking.
For the record, I disagree with this. Not because I don't think people lie or think fact-checking is bad. People lie and fact checking is generally a good idea, but we're not talking about strangers here. We're talking about people you're close to. People you've known for years.
If my best friend, who I met when I was four, tells me something happened to him, I don't fact check or anything of the kind, I believe him. Why? Because I know him. He has no reason to lie to me, likely wouldn't do so even if he did, and is a terrible liar. I trust him to tell me the truth. I believe my parents when they tell me things, too, for similar reasons (they're better liars, but even less likely to do such a thing). And I believe several of my other friends pretty close to unconditionally, too. Because I know them, and I trust them not to lie to me under ordinary circumstances.
If someone you trust tells you something happened to them, you should probably believe them pretty much unconditionally as a default. As in, there'd need to be strong evidence before you doubted them at all. Because you know them and trust them. this is slightly less true if they're trying to get you to do something, I suppose, but if they're relating an anecdote? There's literally no reason not to believe them the vast majority of the time.
Some healthy skepticism is good. Skepticism of even the people you trust most is both paranoid, and likely being a bad friend/spouse/relative. Especially if they're telling you about something bad that happened to them. Arbitrary skepticism in that case is often deeply hurtful in addition to being completely unwarranted.
I play and GM RPGs for almost 20 years now. Out of those, the last 15 years I had a strict 50% policy on tables I GMed (as in 50% female players in the group). Experience told me it was the wisest thing to do. Group dynamics are generally better that way. The last couple of years, it got harder, though. Female players got kids or moved away or simply couldn't find the time to attend any longer. But even now there are always at least two women at the gaming table. And since we are all friends and treat each other with respect, there was never any problem.
Recently, in Duplicate Contract Bridge, several high level pairs were "outed" for cheating. One pair, their teammates refused to believe it. A couple of days later, they were very surprised when that accused pair confessed that yes, they had been cheating. So while I agree pretty much with the dead man's "believe unconditionally" scenarios, there might still be a downside.
Also... "Of course I'm paranoid! The question is, am I paranoid enough?" -- Unknown Anti-Submarine Warfare ship skipper, during a hunt for an enemy submarine — granting one should probably not trust an enemy unconditionally. :-)
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Recently, in Duplicate Contract Bridge, several high level pairs were "outed" for cheating. One pair, their teammates refused to believe it. A couple of days later, they were very surprised when that accused pair confessed that yes, they had been cheating. So while I agree pretty much with the dead man's "believe unconditionally" scenarios, there might still be a downside.
I did specify 'this is slightly less true if they're trying to get you to do something, I suppose'. A bit of skepticism when someone has an actual reason to lie to you is fairly reasonable. And I'd also advocate being careful who you trust, and being wiling to reevaluate that in the face of evidence (like the confessions)...but even with those provisos the default position for someone you trust just has to be believing them, otherwise you don't actually trust them to tell you the truth.
Believing them by default is what trusting them to speak the truth is. If you can't do it, you don't trust them, and might want to examine why and whether that lack of trust is rational and/or endemic of some other issue with either you or them.
Additionally, relating unpleasant things that happened to them, especially privately to a trusted person (the specific circumstance primarily under discussion here), is not generally a situation where there is any gain in lying about what happened. Making doing so a very rare exception and assuming it to be the case irrational in the vast majority of instances (as well as hurtful, as mentioned previously).
Also... "Of course I'm paranoid! The question is, am I paranoid enough?" -- Unknown Anti-Submarine Warfare ship skipper, during a hunt for an enemy submarine — granting one should probably not trust an enemy unconditionally. :-)
Well yeah. I said nothing about trusting people you don't know. Research the heck out of anything that isn't said by someone you personally trust to be speaking the truth and know what they're talking about.
But that has nothing to do with your interactions with those you know and trust.
One of the things I've enjoyed but been surprised about, is how its not an issue being a girl in a RPG gaming group. Most times I'm the only girl in the group but no-one has batted an eyelid.
I know RPG playing is very much seen as a geeky guy thing but I think more women are giving it a go.
Quick survey... who here has a girl in their group... and is she treated with the respect she unquestionably deserves!! ;))
The answer I wish I could give:
"I game with humans, some of the humans are different than some of the other humans, but they are all humans and treated with dignity and respect."
aka, it shouldn't matter...
But in reality, today it does, and we need to encourage people towards behaviour like tolerance, respect, and dignity.
In my core gaming group we have one girl who plays, although currently she isn't in either of the primary campaign. In our monthly open PFS night we have probably 1/4 of our registered players as girls, but at our next session almost 1/2 of the attendees are girls.
I'm a bit melancholy on this subject, having read a long article on the subject that is making its rounds on social networks. It detailed the authors personal experience through 20-30 years of harassment, and assault at gaming stores, conventions, and online. I was horrified when I read the article, but not surprised, and I've made a new conviction to speak out against the small intolerances that enable the big ones.
p.s. I'm making a point of posting this using my own name, and not my avatars, this isn't an issue hiding from will make better.
What article is this you are referring to?
The one that was linked earlier in a now deleted post and also linked several times in newly created and quickly locked threads.What article is this you are referring to?One of the things I've enjoyed but been surprised about, is how its not an issue being a girl in a RPG gaming group. Most times I'm the only girl in the group but no-one has batted an eyelid.
I know RPG playing is very much seen as a geeky guy thing but I think more women are giving it a go.
Quick survey... who here has a girl in their group... and is she treated with the respect she unquestionably deserves!! ;))
The answer I wish I could give:
"I game with humans, some of the humans are different than some of the other humans, but they are all humans and treated with dignity and respect."
aka, it shouldn't matter...
But in reality, today it does, and we need to encourage people towards behaviour like tolerance, respect, and dignity.
In my core gaming group we have one girl who plays, although currently she isn't in either of the primary campaign. In our monthly open PFS night we have probably 1/4 of our registered players as girls, but at our next session almost 1/2 of the attendees are girls.
I'm a bit melancholy on this subject, having read a long article on the subject that is making its rounds on social networks. It detailed the authors personal experience through 20-30 years of harassment, and assault at gaming stores, conventions, and online. I was horrified when I read the article, but not surprised, and I've made a new conviction to speak out against the small intolerances that enable the big ones.
p.s. I'm making a point of posting this using my own name, and not my avatars, this isn't an issue hiding from will make better.
Yes that way lies the Hammer of Locking let us not go there.
Don't tempt the gods!
The one that was linked earlier in a now deleted post and also linked several times in newly created and quickly locked threads.What article is this you are referring to?One of the things I've enjoyed but been surprised about, is how its not an issue being a girl in a RPG gaming group. Most times I'm the only girl in the group but no-one has batted an eyelid.
I know RPG playing is very much seen as a geeky guy thing but I think more women are giving it a go.
Quick survey... who here has a girl in their group... and is she treated with the respect she unquestionably deserves!! ;))
The answer I wish I could give:
"I game with humans, some of the humans are different than some of the other humans, but they are all humans and treated with dignity and respect."
aka, it shouldn't matter...
But in reality, today it does, and we need to encourage people towards behaviour like tolerance, respect, and dignity.
In my core gaming group we have one girl who plays, although currently she isn't in either of the primary campaign. In our monthly open PFS night we have probably 1/4 of our registered players as girls, but at our next session almost 1/2 of the attendees are girls.
I'm a bit melancholy on this subject, having read a long article on the subject that is making its rounds on social networks. It detailed the authors personal experience through 20-30 years of harassment, and assault at gaming stores, conventions, and online. I was horrified when I read the article, but not surprised, and I've made a new conviction to speak out against the small intolerances that enable the big ones.
p.s. I'm making a point of posting this using my own name, and not my avatars, this isn't an issue hiding from will make better.
I'm not trying to stir the pot or get this thread locked but honestly would like to read the article if someone could PM the link to me.
Just google "tabletop gaming has a white male terrorism problem."
Just google "tabletop gaming has a white male terrorism problem."
Thanks!
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One of the things I've enjoyed but been surprised about, is how its not an issue being a girl in a RPG gaming group. Most times I'm the only girl in the group but no-one has batted an eyelid.
I know RPG playing is very much seen as a geeky guy thing but I think more women are giving it a go.
Quick survey... who here has a girl in their group... and is she treated with the respect she unquestionably deserves!! ;))
When I was a teenager, the majority of my gaming group were girls. Something like 4/5 of our regular players were girls. One was a dancer, another a color guard performer, another an artist, and one was just a ditz (but a lovable ditz). Pretty much all of us loved to play Phantasy Star Online in 4-player split screen on the Gamecube as well (also Dance Dance Revolution, and Battle Hunter). :)
I recall how funny I thought it was, because very early on in the campaign I noticed that they really enjoyed taking over dungeons they had cleared and redecorating them. So it got to the point that I just gave them the maps to the dungeons I had made when they cleared the dungeon and they started deciding which portions of the dungeons were going to be living rooms, dens, bedrooms, dining rooms, and stuff. They used high level magic to move rooms around if they wanted to do something a bit different, etc.
It was lots of fun.
[sidetrack]
The one that was linked earlier in a now deleted post and also linked several times in newly created and quickly locked threads.
What article is this you are referring to?
I think it worth emphasizing that this isn't out of any desire to censor or silence the article nor points it makes. Discussion regarding the article has tended to go (often quite quickly) into realms that Paizo are not willing to host on their forums, and thus have locked threads and deleted posts accordingly.
[/sidetrack]
Continue!
[sidetrack]
The one that was linked earlier in a now deleted post and also linked several times in newly created and quickly locked threads.
What article is this you are referring to?I think it worth emphasizing that this isn't out of any desire to censor or silence the article nor points it makes. Discussion regarding the article has tended to go (often quite quickly) into realms that Paizo are not willing to host on their forums, and thus have locked threads and deleted posts accordingly.
[/sidetrack]
Continue!
No, not really.
TOZ had a one post topic, and it got locked.
I pointed out my main group getting (which is made entirely out of women) indirect harassment and showed with my support of getting rid of harassment and got the thread locked and blamed (for my support of my group and women in general of all things!) directly in regards to it (for supporting stopping harassment of all things) as per the locking post at the bottom of the thread.
They made a point in a third thread, which is appreciated. They specified that they do not condone harmful actions against woman. I appreciate they stated that.
Edited: Because even if hurt deeply by words tossed about by people in power, it's never a wise idea to bring it up because...well...they're the people in power.
I haven't been completely convinced that they don't wish to censor it myself, as their actions don't entirely support their wording...but onto other things.
So, enough of that, as we probably don't want this thread locked either...as this thread was originally about women in gaming.
Not normally participating in this or threads like this, even though my entire group is made up of women. They actually don't feel welcome in Pathfinder and prefer to play another system.
We currently play 5e and dragonage. I really like playing with this group. There is no smoking, no drinking, and they focus strongly on the game. They play as a deeply organized and coordinated team, and encourage each other in their participation. I actually think they may be one of the best groups I've ever been a part of.
If you have a problem with moderator decisions, and you obviously have one that's the size of a great white whale, email community@paizo.com .
We'll change the subject back to woman in gaming.
We know that Paizo's leader is a lady, I imagine they have some RPG game time as well.