I've had similar issues before, much to my chagrin, with DMs deciding that to challenge a player they can only remove their strengths first. I've had rogues who would go many a level unable to sneak attack anything as they were magically immune or otherwise had no discernible anatomy. Casters galore who simply got spammed with Dispel over and over in an attempt to play 'who has more charges' in their back-up wands. Rust Monster Uprisings that shook the pillars of creation because the group had more than 1 fighter. I've seen Cavaliers have their challenges simply fall off of targets because of various magic items on a shockingly consistent basis. But I'm going to get to a pretty specific point here about it all. Basically: How to make Smite not suck.
Now I say that knowing that if you play a Paladin in, say, Wrath of the Righteous, you are basically God. And all that you survey you may smite with a wrathsome hand. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the home-brew campaigns where "Oh... they're neutral." is the answer to everything. The kind of campaign where, the last time I played a Paladin, I made it to level 6 and had never smited anything because anything even slightly no-good was neutral. The only evil target was a Glabrezu that popped up when we were level 3 (basically a 'you need to leave now' situation).
I haven't seen any archetypes that replace smite, and probably because it's SUPPOSED to be a sometimes I-win button against an evil boss here and there. But every time I come armed to smite... the alignment is wrong. And as much as I love playing a Paladin, it's almost impossible to feel useful when you have 2 skill points a level, no orisons, low spells, and the one thing you're REALLY good at never happens (IE: Evil people need to die).
So I need some help with this. What suggestions do you guys have. And after you're done saying "get a new group" (multiple groups have this issue here for some infuriating reason) what could I do to make a Paladin without smite not suck?
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There is an archetype that replaces smite- Iroran Paladin. And it sounds perfect for your table.
Their replacement for smite is a +1-+7 bonus to attack/damage/AC against the opponent. Also, you get a ki pool, and you can use that to ignore DR. And the thing is called a 'personal trial'- it isn't about the enemy at all, it is all on you. So that brings me to the main point- it doesn't care what alignment the enemy is- it just works. So use it on golems all you want. Use it on half celestial golems protecting orphans- iroran paladins don't care.
Other info on the archetype- it has 'cha added to dex for ac when in light armor' (some level cap, but that is basically gone by level 3). Get a decent armor (probably something mithral) and you can basically get the same defense as heavy armor while using only 14 dex/14 cha. So it is fairly easy to be a light armor character focused on strength. So inreality, compared to normal heavy armor paladins, you just keep your full move and have great touch AC rather than flat footed.
Your divine bond is forced onto your unarmed strike, but you still keep weapon proficiencies... so grab a nice greatsword or a polearm, and enjoy the fact that you can keep good strength. Heck, having unarmed that you can power up as a backup sounds like a sound idea in this situation. Even if you face a rust monster, you can still get by.
What you keep- spells, CHA to saves, lay on hands, mercies- all your tanky stuff, basically. And since you still keep decent enough AC, you can continue as the party tank.
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If you want to play a dwarven paladin you can try out the stonelord archetype. They replace smite evil with stonestrike.
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I think I'll pick up Intrigue and weigh that in with the Iroran Paladin. See what options the Gray Paladin has first. Only have to wait a few days and I have some time before I have to set myself in stone. Thanks, guys!
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Time to get a new GM.
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Time to get a new GM.
Or otherwise address the problem. It very much sounds like you need to talk with your GM. You're not going to solve this by playing some paladin archetype that alters smite if cavalier challenges frequently fail in your games.
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Time to get a new GM.
Yeah, no archetype or house rule is going to solve your problem.
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Or step up and GM yourself and show them how it's done.
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It's clearly a GM issue, not a paladin issue. The GM, for some reason, won't let abilities of any kind work if he can help it.
If you're not going to solve the problem, you can go into an arms race with your b@$#$*!& cheater GM. That means no abilities that provide saves (which NPCs will never fail), or anything else dependent on the enemy.
For Paladins specifically, the Stonelord and Iroran Paladins replace Smite Evil with alignment-independent abilities. So does the Tranquil Guardian, but that allows a save.
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@ExiledMimic: in your case it sounds a lot like a GM issue. Try some Pathfinder Society, you'd be amazed how well Smite works.
In general however, there are legitimate cases where you run into a lot of neutral enemies. They'll fall into roughly these categories:
- Stupid animals/beasts. Owlbears and so forth. At first glance this is an annoying matchup because you can't talk with them.
Figure out the beast's motives. Is it defending its territory? Looking for food? Been driven out of its own territory by a fiercer thing? Just plain nasty? If you know what's going on, you can try to use that to RP your way past it.
Also, Handle Animal is a paladin class skill based on Charisma and you can handle anything that has 1-2 intelligence. So you might be able to convince the beast to go elsewhere or even become your pet. Chances are that a GM that's so into negating abilities will block this though. It's hard to use in-rules tactics against a GM who regularly contrives excuses to avoid them.
Last resort, you're still a full martial class.
- Mindless guardians. Golems and such. These are particularly prized by evil bosses that expect paladins to come calling. Invest in an adamantine weapon because that's their typical DR type. Consider these a legitimate chance for the other martials to shine, and you can back their play.
Since this game is based on Dungeons and Dragons it's sort of assumed that you'll be poking into ancient ruins. Constructs are one of the few creature types that can survive being locked up forever, so expect a lot of these.
- Oozes. Get a friend with Dungeoneering, and carry a lot of Bladeguard. If you're prepared for them, they shouldn't be more than a minor obstacle.
- Neutral people opposing you. This one you should be able to RP through; as the embodiment of LG, you're inherently trustworthy. You can leverage that when negotiating. If they're not evil, in many cases you should be able to come to some sort of settlement.
Arguably, it just isn't the role of the paladin to fight these people. Paladins are kind of the military that you send at monsters, not the police that handles civil disputes.
If there's no other way, and fighting them is justified and necessary, give them a chance to surrender/stand aside. If they don't, then do what must be done.
- Chaotic "can't believe it's not evil" neutral - Call shenanigans on the GM, just as he'd do if a player tried it.
- "This campaign isn't really about good and evil, it's all relative, blah blah blah" - don't play a paladin. This isn't the campaign for paladins.
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Iroran paladin is a great way to go smiteless, but given the lengths your GM goes to to make sure players can't use their abilities (like apparently giving the majority of a campaign's enemies warding armor), there's nothing stopping your GM from just throwing anti magic fields at you or coming up with some way to deny yourself line of sight or clog up your swift actions or otherwise prevent you from attacking at all when you use personal trial. Or trying to force you to fall.
The fact of the matter is is that you can't stop a DM who wants to make your character's life miserable and by definition the only limit to DM fiat is your patience.
So I'll concur that this is a problem that needs to be addressed OOCly.
Oh yes- Irorans are rather more 'gm proof' than most paladins. Heck, if you take the fluff at the beginning of the entry seriously, you can even write your own paladin code ('finding your own way to enlightenment').
I kind of like the idea of an iroran teaming up with a witch to cheat at gambling (which has misfortune to cause rerolls, iroran can prevent that same tactic being used against them with one of its random abilities)
Even so- it is near impossible to fight against the level 10 spell "rocks fall, evurrybody dies".
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Sounds like the game has descended into a GM v players game. Spend a session with both sides airing their grievances without blame. It could be that some of the players have overdone the cheese and the GM is countering. The GM will always win an arms race but everyone loses as the game isn't fun.
If the group can get to a place where everyone is on the same page then the game will be better for all.
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I haven't seen any archetypes that replace smite, and probably because it's SUPPOSED to be a sometimes I-win button against an evil boss here and there. But every time I come armed to smite... the alignment is wrong. And as much as I love playing a Paladin, it's almost impossible to feel useful when you have 2 skill points a level, no orisons, low spells, and the one thing you're REALLY good at never happens (IE: Evil people need to die).
So I need some help with this. What suggestions do you guys have. And after you're done saying "get a new group" (multiple groups have this issue here for some infuriating reason) what could I do to make a Paladin without smite not suck?
The same way DM's vet/interview players, I do the same thing to GM's. I will ask about their playstyle if they don't mention it. I also ask for a list of houserule. When I make my character I get them to ok it, and let me know it won't cause any problems. So far nobody has rejected my characters, but if they did I would ask why. If they "why" made me feel like we were not a good fit I am leaving the game before it begins. If the group is just not used to playing at the power level I am used to then I will tone things down on the build. However if the GM has us near TPK'ing after every fight I am either stepping things back up or leaving.
Basically, be proactive as much as possible to avoid these situations because even if you find a new way to be effective the GM can just find a new way to shut you down, and there is nothing you can do about it.
Several archetypes reduce the number of smite evils in compensation for other powers gained. One of these may work better for you. This way you still have smite evil but its importance is lessened.
This sounds like a GM issue not a my paladin just can't anything to smite issue. I would talk to the GM privately that you have noticed yourself and other players never get to use their characters special abilities. The game is not about GM vs players. It is about having fun and letting people have their moment to shine with their characters.
If you want to keep Paladin - Oath against Chaos is one good option.
A paladin without smite isn't nearly as good as a warpriest. So, one option is to be a warpriest and call yourself a paladin. The self-buffs are harder for the GM to mess with.
I recently had a conversation with my GM for Way of the Wicked because he felt like he needed to beef up some encounters in order to challenge us. We have a party configuration that is all over the place when it comes to power: I'm playing a non-optimized Witch, there's a fairly well optimized necromancer Wizard, a fairly well optimized vivisectionist Alchemist, a non-optimized Antipaladin, and a ridiculously overtuned monk-thing. My response to him was basically "what kind of campaign are you looking to run?" I've been playing non-optimized because I didn't want to force an arms race and preferred to experience the story. I get my combat kicks elsewhere and, to be honest, it's nice in an evil campaign to be able to use your lightning bolts just for terrorism instead of combat.
The same applies here. It seems like there's a mismatch between what the GM wants (which seems adversarial) and what the players want. Ultimately, the GM has the ability to say things like RFED, but they're opting to selectively ignore rules in order to make your characters weaker. That honestly borders on bullying from what you've posted.
It is worth asking the GM if they really want to GM. It's then worth having a conversation about the type of campaign you all want to be in.
You might also consider your trait selections!
I have found the additional traits feat at first level gives you some good options for not being ignored.
This is one of my favorite religion traits...
voice of monsters
Another one I like in religion traits is...
eternal understanding
....but you can only have one per category!!!
Faith trait...maybe this one
unnatural presence
Regional trait I like justicar...
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Agree with the long list of people saying GM issue. Trying to find a workaround never really works in the end.
Its important to find which elements of the game are most enjoyable for the GM. If the GM creates a "deadly" encounter and the PCs turn it into a cakewalk, then the GM may feel pressure to use gimmicks and deny PC abilities.
I've found this can be the case when there is a "GM hands off chargen" rule. As in, it is expected that the GM has to accept whatever character a player brings to the table.
The GM may not like the character concept or character build, but feels powerless to reject it, and then lashes out passive-aggressively during game time.
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Ultimate Intrigue introduces the Gray Paladin which gets the ability to smite anything you want for two uses of Smite and allows your Paladin to be Neutral Good too. It does lose all the immunities and divine grace though.
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Ultimately, the GMs job is to entertain the players, or provide entertainment for the players, otherwise they'll just find something better to do with their Friday nights. If the GM is squashing every character's defining features and not giving each player a little time in the spotlight doing what they're supposed to be good at, then I would say that the GM is failing in their job. I'm surprised anyone would want to play in his/her game after a while.
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I'm amazed nobody mentioned that Paladin's can choose to have Divine Bond be towards weapons instead of a summoned mount. I've been playing a Paladin in a Curse of the Crimson Throne game for some time, and I've gradually come to appreciate Divine Bond a lot in that regard. Got an issue with neutral animals/golems? You can always give your weapon the Bane quality towards that creature. Did that a few times against Magical Beasts, Golems, etc.
That's not to say that the other points or suggestions are invalid. Just stating that there is another feature that doesn't need to worry about alignment. Sure, it's got fewer uses overall than Smite and comes in at 5th. But it will get things done.
Time to get a new GM.
Agreed!!
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I'm amazed nobody mentioned that Paladin's can choose to have Divine Bond be towards weapons instead of a summoned mount. I've been playing a Paladin in a Curse of the Crimson Throne game for some time, and I've gradually come to appreciate Divine Bond a lot in that regard. Got an issue with neutral animals/golems? You can always give your weapon the Bane quality towards that creature. Did that a few times against Magical Beasts, Golems, etc.
That's not to say that the other points or suggestions are invalid. Just stating that there is another feature that doesn't need to worry about alignment. Sure, it's got fewer uses overall than Smite and comes in at 5th. But it will get things done.
Bane isn't on the list of properties you can put on a weapon with Divine Bond.
I'm actually slated to run a campaign in the rotation soon. After the upcoming campaign we have 1 shadowrun game and then my own campaign I've been working on for a little over a year. And like many of you have said I've worked to have things in it where a Cleric is the hero in one section and the Rogue another.
I would even try society play if society was around my area. No gaming stores here anymore. Closest society game is monthly an hour away. It kinda hurts. But I appreciate all the responses you guys have left. Thanks so much.
Inquisitor is the best paladin-like character class IMO.
Talk to the GM. It seems he is scared you guys tear through his precious encounters too fast. A lot of GMs have this issue.
I have encountered orcs with rings of fire immunity in AD&D so the players could not clear the rooms wioth a single fireball.
I myself am guilty of cheating on saving throws in 3rd edition making save or suck spells basically unusable for PCs.
The GM has to understand, that for the players sucessfully using their abilities is part of the fun. Sometimes enemies with certain immunities to counter the PCs strength can be a unique challenge for a change, but if done all the time the game becomes pretty much a chore.
The easiest way to deal with novaish abillities like smite and challenge as a GM is more daily encounters. Either the PCs waste their precious smites to plow througth a bunch of minions and will miss them for the boss battle or they will enter the fight with the BBEG already injured.
Anyway the decision is up to the players and they will be able to use everthing they have.
Talk to the GM. It seems he is scared you guys tear through his precious encounters too fast. A lot of GMs have this issue.
I have encountered orcs with rings of fire immunity in AD&D so the players could not clear the rooms wioth a single fireball.
I myself am guilty of cheating on saving throws in 3rd edition making save or suck spells basically unusable for PCs.The GM has to understand, that for the players sucessfully using their abilities is part of the fun. Sometimes enemies with certain immunities to counter the PCs strength can be a unique challenge for a change, but if done all the time the game becomes pretty much a chore.
The easiest way to deal with novaish abillities like smite and challenge as a GM is more daily encounters. Either the PCs waste their precious smites to plow througth a bunch of minions and will miss them for the boss battle or they will enter the fight with the BBEG already injured.
Anyway the decision is up to the players and they will be able to use everthing they have.
The easiest way to deal with novaish abilities is to not be predictable. If you always build the dungeon with easy at the start and slowly get tougher you players will get used to it and prepare for it. Surprise them, through a tough encounter off the start. They will be reluctant to use those abilities because they think the next encounter will be harder. I'm all over the place that and players are never sure expend resource in nova. I don't consider smite a nova ability though as you get higher level you have enough smites to cover every combat. By 13th level you smite 5 per day, you'll be lucky to have 5 encounters where you can use smite.
full bab class that can heal itself has crazy saves and has access to great weapons and armor plus a smattering of spells
sounds pretty gimped if it cannot smite
kappa
full bab class that can heal itself has crazy saves and has access to great weapons and armor plus a smattering of spells
sounds pretty gimped if it cannot smite
While paladins are quite strong and flexible, it's still frustrating if you expect an ability to work - and it doesn't. Expectations are a powerful thing in human psychology: The same situation can be evaluated completely differently, depending on whether you expect something or not.
Personally, I settled on 'a key ability should work like 80% of the time'. This way players feel rewarded for their choices, while they are still forced to develop new tactics sometimes.
If a GM feels cornered by the PCs' power, he is better off increasing the CR of the battles. This way a smiting paladin can still deal a lot of damage, but it will have less impact.
This is a GM problem.
No amount of looking for other abilities will solve this. The GM is either incompetent on how to increase challenge in a non-stupid way by simply handwaving away character abilities, instead of raising the CR in an appropriate way. Like with more monsters (4 flunkies, instead of 2 besides the BBEG), or by raising monster CR (give them more levels, a Simple Advanced Template), or even switching monsters out to higher CR versions of related abilities. Like switch a CR 5 meleemonster to another CR7 melee monster (liek Direbear to Firegiant).
What the DM does is literally the worst way to "bring challenge back to the table".
OR, in the worst case, he is stuck in a players-vs-DM-mindset and resents that he "looses" all the fights.
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You need to have a grown-up talk with the DM to find out which of these two possible scenarios apply and then work TOGETHER to remove them.
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Short: DM problem. Can NOT be solved in-game. Needs to be solved by talking out-of-game.
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Personally, I settled on 'a key ability should work like 80% of the time'. This way players feel rewarded for their choices, while they are still forced to develop new tactics sometimes.
Curious - do people agree this is a good estimate?
I asked our party paladin and he says he feels like he only actually uses Smite against about 1/3rd of enemies (though a good chunk of that is based on limited uses of smite, not just foes being invalid targets). He still finds Smite rewarding.
Curious - do people agree this is a good estimate?
No - that seemed high to me as well. I think trying to set a certain threshold for which an ability must be able to be used is a bad idea. Too much for GM's to track as it is.
Time to get a new GM.
This basically. The GM role is tricky for people that want to 'win'. The GM is basically god, and if god doesn't want you to win nobody is going to have any fun at all.
I haven't seen any archetypes that replace smite,
Tranquil Guardian eliminates it entirely, and several others replace it with an ability that's on a more finite resource.
Tranquil Guardian eliminates it entirely, and several others replace it with an ability that's on a more finite resource.
I haven't seen any archetypes that replace smite,
Gray Paladins can use two uses of Smite to smite anything but they lose most of their fancy immunities. Which honestly isn't so bad. Cha to Saves is really bad ass and all but it's not like it was a staple or anything.
I'm actually liking Gray Paladins more and more now.
I usually create an NPC to fill in a party gap. That works because I like roleplaying and keep from outshining the PCs. A cleric or bard/rogue can be fun even if most of the players are power gamers. The bad guys may realize that a Paladin is going to oppose his plans, but he cannot realistically change his henchmen from evil to neutral. The extra help may be neutral. If the paladin gets a holy sword, well that can help with charmed innocents thrown at the party. They still have the dispel magic abilities, right?
In any case I am also thinking about ultimate intrigue as my next buy.
No - that seemed high to me as well. I think trying to set a certain threshold for which an ability must be able to be used is a bad idea. Too much for GM's to track as it is.
It's a rule of thumb for me. I could have worded it 'usually it works, but not always', probably that would have been more clear.
80% taking literally means that fireball, slashing weapon, tower shield or smite evil will work at 4 of 5 encounters. A specialist (blaster sorcerer, weapon master, tower shield specialist, offensive paladin) will enjoy the 4 encounters and sweat at the 5th one. While a generalist will be ok in any of them.