why is summoning worth it as a sorcerer / wizard?

[azighal]

ok im having a problem figuring out why so many guides show summoning spells as being very powerful.

when i look at the creatures that can be summoned they would be barely able to hit a target in my campaign(rise of the rune lords)

can someone explain to me how summoning is powerful.

Thanks

[Nohwear]

At the very least, you are creating an expendable meat shield.

[MeanMutton]

azighal wrote:

ok im having a problem figuring out why so many guides show summoning spells as being very powerful.

when i look at the creatures that can be summoned they would be barely able to hit a target in my campaign(rise of the rune lords)

can someone explain to me how summoning is powerful.

Thanks

They absorb hits, they intercede between you and the bad guys, they frequently have some cool powers which are quite useful. Toss in a few feats - superior summoning, augment summoning, sacred summons, summon good monster, summon evil monster - and you are pretty ridiculous. Grabbing the Rod of Giant Summoning is also pretty handy for boosting them.

[Dukai]

something that a lot of people forget is summoned celestial creatures gain a 1/day smite that can sometimes help depending on the creatures cha and hd. However, summons tend to be better meat shields, flanking buddies, and controllers rather than good damage dealers.

Also, sacred summons isn't available for sorc/wiz as they do not have the aura class feature.

[Deighton Thrane]

No, but wizards do have Acadamae Graduate. Not quite as good as sacred summons until you can reliably make a DC 15 fort save, or can easily remove the fatigued condition.

[Corvino]

On its own Summoning is decent:

It has duration to keep being useful the entire combat.

Summons can contribute damage most turns unless killed.

If enemies Attack Summons you don't need to waste healing resources.

By putting more bodies on the field you can limit enemy movement and provide Flanking.

Summon lists are flexible, so you could summon Dire Bats to act as temporary flying mounts or elementals to exploit damage weaknesses/immunity, or something to beat alignment DR.

If you build toward summoning it becomes nasty. Sacred Summons means your summon can attack the same turn you cast it, as it's not a full-round action. Augment Summoning makes your critters hit more reliably and harder. Superior Summoning means you get more critters. And all these feats are multiplative - each one you add makes the others more powerful. If you have other buffs available (Inspire Courage, Raging Song, Haste etc) it only gets better.

[Mystic Madness]

azighal wrote:

when i look at the creatures that can be summoned they would be barely able to hit a target in my campaign(rise of the rune lords)

What levels are we talking about here? Monster summoning peaks in power level vs. enemy power IMO at Summon Monster 6, which is ordinarily obtained at 11th or 12th level. What monsters are routinely evading the +20 to hit (+22 when charging) of an augmented dire tiger? I should add that it has five attacks when charging and a +14 to damage on each attack for smiting. on top of that, it has a ridiculous grapple. Keep in mind that is just one option in this Swiss army knife of spells.

On the other hand, Monster Summoning 1-3 are quite weak (with the possible exception of a trampling Aurochs and the definite exception of the powerful small earth elemental).

Summon monster 4 is middling with the Hound Archon being a decent choice and many summons getting at least some DR. Summon Monster 5 has great utility (Bralani for healing, Babau for dispelling) as well as some muscle (Ankylosaurus and Large Elementals).

Also, keep in Mind that Augment Summoning and Acadamae Graduate make a big difference. If you are inclined to summon multiples (which I usually am not), Superior Summoning is also powerful. Expanded monster summoning and the various ACG rings that allow summoning of new monsters also add to the power in the "sweet spot" levels (but do little for 1-3).

[Fergie]

A) Summoning is generally not considered very good until at least 3rd level, and really takes off around 5th or 7th level.

B) Summons last rounds/level. They deal damage, take damage, and occupy space on the battlefield. Many have nifty other abilities.

C) Summoning is probably the most diverse line of spells in the game. You can summon a single creature, or groups of lesser creatures. You can summon fiendish or celestial, elementals, demons, devils, angels, etc. Many of these creatures can cast a variety of spells or spell like abilities themselves. The real power of summons is that you can summon just the right creature for that particular encounter. If you pick well, there can be synergy with other party members (sneak attacks, haste, channel energy, etc). Also, the fiendish and celestial templates provide some sweet benefits such as smite, resistances, SR, and even DR.

D) Just like most other options, summoning does have it's weaknesses. Often different creatures from the same list will be of vastly different power - looking at you awesome ankylosaurus! Flying summons are often too weak in combat, and mobility limits the usefulness of summons in some situations. Protection from alignment can drastically limit options. Sometimes you just don't have a full round action to get them summoned.

Just a quick example from my experience in play. I was playing a conjuration specialist, and the party was taking a beating from a cloudkill (I might have cast the cloudkill, but let's not bicker and argue over who killed who...). I could not cast gust of wind, because evocation was my forbidden school, but I could summon an air mephet, and it could cast gust of wind for me.

[j b 200]

Remember, Summoned Monsters are not just for melee attacks.

SM1: Poison Frog has, well, poison that does Con damage
SM2: Giant Spider has Web, good for battlefield control
SM3: Dretch has Stinking Cloud; Lantern Archon has Aid at-will and hits touch AC
SM4: Hound Archon has Constant detect and magic circle v evil, also the Aura is a big boost; Mephits grant access to several Spell-likes
SM5: Babau-dispel, Bralani-lots of great spells, Kyton-dancing chains

You get the idea. This one spell give you access to lots of unique abilities or spell likes that you wouldn't normally have. SM6 allows you to summon your own personal Bard (a Lillend).

[Harleequin]

Summoning is generally always a solid option!

[SanKeshun]

j b 200 wrote:

Remember, Summoned Monsters are not just for melee attacks.

Or even just attacks in general.

SM1: An eagle can act as your scout (requires Handle Animal), or a dolphin can aid another on your Swim checks.
SM2: Worker ants can aid another on Climb checks and help drag your loot, and a lemure devil can use its many defenses to break line-of-sight to you while soaking up damage. Small Earth elementals can hide in the ground with earth glide and watch for opponents with tremorsense.
SM3: Cheetahs are good stealthy scouts, lantern archons can serve as your party's face, provide light with continual flame, and take your loot to your home with greater teleport.
SM4: A dire ape can probably carry you while Climbing itself, and mephits get you all elemental languages without needing to know them yourself.
SM5: Babaus are the ultimate scouts, bralanis can take care of your Handle Animal checks for other summoned monsters, and kytons can make your Craft (blacksmithing) checks, along with Intimidate.
SM6: Shadow demons are perfect for taking hostages, while Huge Air Elementals can probably carry you while flying.
SM7: Bone Devils are skill monkeys - Bluff, Intimidate, Knowledge (planes), Sense Motive, and Spellcraft. I'm sure harvesting ink from giant squids could have amusing side effects as well.
SM8: Hezrous are also fairly good damage-soakers, especially in amphibious situations.
SM9: Get lucky with a glabrezu and you get a wish. Ice devils have a +21 to any 3 Knowledge skills, and a +23 to Survival (useless until you need it). Get your nalfeshnees to use their Use Magic Device on new magic items that might be cursed. Astral Devas have a +22 to a random Craft skill. Trumpet Archons can plane shift you and your allies.

Basically, summoning is your swiss army knife.

[MageHunter]

It's also good flavour. I play summoning characters with a god complex. They don't need to lift their fists like a peasant. That's what servants are for.

[MageHunter]

With the druid shaman archetypes it becomes really good. "I summon a whole bunch of op bears. I also use summoning feats". Summoning is so useful, some people ban it for being broken. E.g. Summoner in pfs.

[strayshift]

I think it is the most 'extreme' school in terms of flexibility, once you look at the pwers of what you can potentially summon you end up with a LOT of options (some explored above). The key to being successful as a summoning type caster is researching the monsters, particularly their abilities, and also being prepared (most groups do not want to wait while you call up stat-blocks and slowing the game down is a sure way to piss the whole group off).

I agree it is pretty rubbish at low levels but most arcane casters are, but always try and have a secondary purpose in the party, you can't go wrong with buffing for example.

[Declindgrunt]

Can someone show me an errata or something that says if you have sacred summons the creature comes and attacks/moves/acts on that turn?

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Harleequin wrote:

Summoning is generally always a solid option!

As long as the player does not slow down the table by...

1. Not being prepared. Player should be ready to run any critter he's going to summon. I used to recommend the Summoner app for this, but the developer left it to twist in the wind and it's become unusable on IOS, and even the Android version is getting flakey on modern versions of the OS. Herolab can be very handy with this with the new Summon Creatures addon which also allows adding feat-based buffs.

2. Being indecisive. If you've got four creatures on the field to every other player's one... it's your job not to be hogging to much of the GM's time figuring out what you're going to do.

[Fried Goblin Surprise]

Declindgrunt wrote:

Can someone show me an errata or something that says if you have sacred summons the creature comes and attacks/moves/acts on that turn?

How about the second line of the Summon Monster spell?

Summon Monster wrote:

It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.

[Declindgrunt]

okay wow that feats way more powerful then I thought

[Charlie Bell]

The higher point buy you use, the less powerful summoned creatures are by comparison.

At lower point buys, they are effectively more powerful.

[Harrison Wise]

SanKeshun wrote:

...lantern archons can serve as your party's face, provide light with continual flame, and take your loot to your home with greater teleport...
... Trumpet Archons can plane shift you and your allies.

There are rules against this:

Core Rulebook wrote:

"A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities."

Source

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Harrison Wise wrote:

SanKeshun wrote:

...lantern archons can serve as your party's face, provide light with continual flame, and take your loot to your home with greater teleport...
... Trumpet Archons can plane shift you and your allies.

There are rules against this:

Core Rulebook wrote:

"A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities."

Source

Also anything harvested from a summons disapears when it does. Ink/poison, for example.

[Deighton Thrane]

Harrison Wise wrote:

SanKeshun wrote:

...lantern archons can serve as your party's face, provide light with continual flame, and take your loot to your home with greater teleport...
... Trumpet Archons can plane shift you and your allies.

There are rules against this:

Core Rulebook wrote:

"A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities."

Source

Though a wizard/sorcerer can use planar binding, lesser for a similar effect. it's just a few spell levels higher is all. And a calling spell, not summoning, so summoning feats don't apply.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Deighton Thrane wrote:

Harrison Wise wrote:

SanKeshun wrote:

...lantern archons can serve as your party's face, provide light with continual flame, and take your loot to your home with greater teleport...
... Trumpet Archons can plane shift you and your allies.

There are rules against this:

Core Rulebook wrote:

"A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities."

Source

Though a wizard/sorcerer can use planar binding, lesser for a similar effect. it's just a few spell levels higher is all. And a calling spell, not summoning, so summoning feats don't apply.

Correct. However, there are other considerations, such as having your called creature decide it wants to stab you in the eyeball.