Not surprisingly, I'm now comparing Paizo's changes with Blizzard's changes to Hearthsone. "Nerf not the actually problem, but the fun option" shouldn't be a thing."I'm wondering if they happen to use the same nerf bat. We should compare the marks on Starving Buzzard's back to those on Dex to Damage.
Starving Buzzard is still playable. Warsong Commander, on the other hand, is now junk.
It's Niche protection in a game saturated with classes which bleed into each others roles and identities.
Presumably the "nerf all comparable options" is their preferred stance to buffing the core version (Swash in this case) because it makes the system less prone to power creep?
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It's Niche protection in a game saturated with classes which bleed into each others roles and identities.
Presumably the "nerf all comparable options" is their preferred stance to buffing the core version (Swash in this case) because it makes the system less prone to power creep?
This was part of the discussion with Jason that got heavily censored.
I see the point in trying to work against power creep. It's good in theory, if you're starting from a balanced point-of-origin.But we don't have that. We don't have anything close to a balanced game, and never have, whatever the official party line tries to feed us; we've got Angel Summoner & BMX Bandit.
The game actively needs power creep to get us out of the 'martials are capped at the level of Power Attack, casters at the level of Wish' rut.
Swashbuckler is hard-wired to use a single weapon. Dex-to-damage with a single weapon is still totally functional with Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace. The dex-to-damage war they're waging is against TWF.
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It's Niche protection in a game saturated with classes which bleed into each others roles and identities.
Presumably the "nerf all comparable options" is their preferred stance to buffing the core version (Swash in this case) because it makes the system less prone to power creep?
It's not power creep when it's done to improve the weaker options. For example, the Unchained Rogue is a straight upgrade over the original but few people would call it power creep because it doesn't raise the overall "power level" of the system. Other books like Weapon Master's Handbook had the specific intent of improving Fighters (for example), because the Fighter needs it.
I was very vocal (to put it mildly) during the Swashbuckler playtest, pushing for it to be buffed from its playtest iterations. I said something to the effect of "The Swashbuckler ought to be the game's premiere Dex fighter", since it's a full-BAB martial class without any spells, and the only class designed from the outset to do just that. I still stand by it, but given the relative weakness of the final Swashbuckler class, I think it could have done with a fair amount of buffing before nerfs to related classes were considered.
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Which is a terrible idea. "I want to two-weapon fight and not be a ranger. Well... guess I won't deal damage a lot. Maybe I should just be a wizard..."
They still haven't taken back the Agile weapon enhancement from AP 100.
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That leaves the option at spending 16,700 gold plus the weapon's cost. To deal damage without having to be a muscle bound meatshield.
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What will be extremely interesting is if the Guided enchantment is reprinted in the CoTCT hardcover.
It is not.
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What will be extremely interesting is if the Guided enchantment is reprinted in the CoTCT hardcover.It is not.
Thank Aroden!
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Thank Aroden!What will be extremely interesting is if the Guided enchantment is reprinted in the CoTCT hardcover.It is not.
Same here. I'm glad (and/or hopeful) that celestial plate won't be back either.
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Which is a terrible idea. "I want to two-weapon fight and not be a ranger. Well... guess I won't deal damage a lot. Maybe I should just be a wizard..."
Strength-based Two-Weapon is perfectly functional without *Ranger bonus feats, since you don't really need more than 17DEX (or 17INT with Artful Dodge). It's only an issue for builds that are already heavily MAD, and with Dual Talent Human it's not necessarily even much of a problem for those. Two-Weapon done well is very powerful, even if your attack/damage ability doesn't get to start at 18.
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What's wrong with celestial plate?
Same here. I'm glad (and/or hopeful) that celestial plate won't be back either.
Probably nothing. I just personally didn't like:
-the "like celestial armor, but better" flavor
-the push on the boards for mithril celestial plate to be used across the board.
Personal issues, though. If it comes back, it comes back - worse things have happened. ^_^
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Which is a terrible idea. "I want to two-weapon fight and not be a ranger. Well... guess I won't deal damage a lot. Maybe I should just be a wizard..."Strength-based Two-Weapon is perfectly functional without *Ranger bonus feats, since you don't really need more than 17DEX (or 17INT with Artful Dodge). It's only an issue for builds that are already heavily MAD, and with Dual Talent Human it's not necessarily even much of a problem for those. Two-Weapon done well is very powerful, even if your attack/damage ability doesn't get to start at 18.
So it's back to being muscle bound anyway. Yay.
So it's back to being muscle bound anyway. Yay.Which is a terrible idea. "I want to two-weapon fight and not be a ranger. Well... guess I won't deal damage a lot. Maybe I should just be a wizard..."Strength-based Two-Weapon is perfectly functional without *Ranger bonus feats, since you don't really need more than 17DEX (or 17INT with Artful Dodge). It's only an issue for builds that are already heavily MAD, and with Dual Talent Human it's not necessarily even much of a problem for those. Two-Weapon done well is very powerful, even if your attack/damage ability doesn't get to start at 18.
Well, it's a heavily abstract system. You can complain about having to be 'muscle-bound', I could complain about characters who couldn't lift a dining chair able to slice a troll in half with one hand. "Oh no, that poison has destroyed his strength!" "Don't worry, I'm dex-based! As long as I can barely lift this sword, I'm deadly as ever!"
Personally I don't feel like a character with high strength (a lot of which is coming from a magic item) and 17 dexterity needs to be stereotyped as "muscle-bound". Lean, muscular and agile works fine as an image.
EDIT: for that matter, a high dex, moderate strength character with finesse can work fine. Builds that make Two-Weapon effective generally aren't going to lose all that much from your strength modifier being a few points lower.
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Swashbuckler is hard-wired to use a single weapon. Dex-to-damage with a single weapon is still totally functional with Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace. The dex-to-damage war they're waging is against TWF.
UnRogue, Whirling Dervish swashbuckler, and anyone with Agile weapons can still do TWF with dex-to-damage.
Swashbuckler is hard-wired to use a single weapon. Dex-to-damage with a single weapon is still totally functional with Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace. The dex-to-damage war they're waging is against TWF.UnRogue, Whirling Dervish swashbuckler, and anyone with Agile weapons can still do TWF with dex-to-damage.
Yes; it used to be anyone with Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace rather than just specific class features. Whirling Dervish is an odd case that heavily implies that it's only supposed to work as Dervish Dance does, but it was written or edited sloppily.
That leaves the option at spending 16,700 gold plus the weapon's cost. To deal damage without having to be a muscle bound meatshield.
That's fair. The choice between Strength and Dexterity Warriors was traditionally a choice between speed/defense and damage. When Dex equals Strength in Damage, it really negates the former option.
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My group has a Dervish Dance magus, and a Destined Bloodrager. Up to level 6 so far, just dinged seven last session, the bloodrager far outdamages the magus but the magus has superior AC.
Both out damage my archer cleric, but my friends archer bard gives them a run for their money.
BTW we allow pre-errata arcane deed and flamboyant arcana, so...
We also allow the deadly agility feat. What we have seen is that dex characters have better defenses but less damage than a strength based two hand wielder, while generally needing more feats to "come on-line" than the strength based two hander.
My group is mildly optimized I admit, but I just do not get the "OMG dex to damage the sky is falling." that some posters put out.
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People keep saying this, but the Urogue gets easy dex to damage and I haven't seen it negate the fighter.That leaves the option at spending 16,700 gold plus the weapon's cost. To deal damage without having to be a muscle bound meatshield.That's fair. The choice between Strength and Dexterity Warriors was traditionally a choice between speed/defense and damage. When Dex equals Strength in Damage, it really negates the former option.
That's because the rest of Urogue is pretty weaksauce for straight combat, and while a full 3 levels is pretty expensive cost, I've still seen a few builds do it for true TWF dex-to-damage. (though some take a 4th level for Debilitating Injury - the other reason rogues are now decent)
Magii can basically choose between Str or Dex without much opportunity cost and it's still pretty evenly split between them.
You have? I can't remember the last time I saw a STR Magus who wasn't a player who obviously barely knew the rules. (The last one I saw in PFS got grumpy when the GM required concentration checks for Spell Combat - claiming he shouldn't need to make a check.) Now - a STR Magus can be viable - but they're pretty obviously sub-par to dex builds.
Third party options that give Dex to Damage feats don't end up obviating strength based characters either.
If the players are power-gaming at all and know math they do.
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So prove it then.
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That leaves the option at spending 16,700 gold plus the weapon's cost. To deal damage without having to be a muscle bound meatshield.That's fair. The choice between Strength and Dexterity Warriors was traditionally a choice between speed/defense and damage. When Dex equals Strength in Damage, it really negates the former option.
This is, to put it bluntly in the British vernacular, b%%~++*s.
Dex has 0 advantage over Str for defense, because max dex on armour is a thing.A little bit of a speed edge in base initiative and movement rate for not wearing armour, maybe, but "ZOMG! Dex characters get ALL THE AC!!1!" is fallacious.
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That leaves the option at spending 16,700 gold plus the weapon's cost. To deal damage without having to be a muscle bound meatshield.That's fair. The choice between Strength and Dexterity Warriors was traditionally a choice between speed/defense and damage. When Dex equals Strength in Damage, it really negates the former option.This is, to put it bluntly in the British vernacular, b&~#*!#s.
Dex has 0 advantage over Str for defense, because max dex on armour is a thing.
A little bit of a speed edge in base initiative and movement rate for not wearing armour, maybe, but "ZOMG! Dex characters get ALL THE AC!!1!" is fallacious.
There is no max dex on a haramaki or bracers, and if you also gain wis to AC as well with a monk dip, or int to AC as a magus or duelist. It's easy for a dex build to have a higher ac than a heavy armor build for a much lower cost than a heavy armor build. Not to mention the severe armor check penalties and move speed reduction in heavy armor.
There is no max dex on a haramaki or bracers, and if you also gain wis to AC as well with a monk dip, or int to AC as a magus or duelist. It's easy for a dex build to have a higher ac than a heavy armor build for a much lower cost than a heavy armor build. Not to mention the severe armor check penalties and move speed reduction in heavy armor.
Yeah, I wasn't disputing movement speed penalties.
Bracers of Armour have a +8 cap, for 64000 gp. Less than that will get you +5 full plate for +14 and a +5 heavy shield for +7. So +21 AC for less than the +8. So you need a 36 Dex just to break even there, without spending any money on Dex items, because the full plate guy still has a +3 max dex they can use if they need to.Haramaki isn't so far behind since it uses the same price scale as the armour, only coming in 8 points behind at 1500gp cheaper before dex, so you only need a dex of around 26 before items to break even.
Plus if you really want to, Full Plate's armour check penalty can be entirely negated...
Now, three different Crane Wings later, the archetype gets a terrible nerf but we don't get the old Crane Wing back...Master of Many Styles wasn't nerfed. The 2 level dip into Master of Many Styles was nerfed (which is good) and the class itself was made reasonably solid (also good). MoMS is now the go-to monk archetype if you want to mix unarmed & natural weapon attacks. (Tengu make excellent MoMS monks if you can grab Agile.)
What do you mean the two level dip was nerfed? What changed?
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If we're honest about it, dex-to-damage TWF mechanics aren't about making finesse builds 'viable' - they're about ideal optimization and stat-dumping.
A level 9 TWF Fighter with typical gear and feats can do around ~15+ damage before ability score, meaning that the difference between having a strength-based Fighter with 17DEX and having a finesse Fighter with 16STR is going to be maybe 3 points of damage. This will typically amount to less than a 20% difference in output. Finesse is perfectly viable, and has side-benefits like more AC with armor training and better initiative. Any effective TWF build should have enough static damage bonuses that a few points of damage is a minor issue; dex-to-damage only becomes a 'viability' problem if a player wants to dump strength, which of course people really want to do.
Say someone wants to create a strength-based TWF Samurai wielding two Effortless Lace Katanas, since it's pretty awesome. Now say that a strength-dumped dual-wakazashi optimization-oddity can grab easy dex-to-damage. Dex-to-damage will completely overshadow everything about the strength-based TWF Samurai including AC and/or movement; it takes finesse from "viable, with a trade-off in damage", to "completely and utterly crushes the alternative, don't fight it".
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If the players are power-gaming at all and know math they do.Actually you have that backwards. The optimizing players pick up the THF or Archery builds because even with dex to damage they can't keep up. Most of the people picking up dex to damage options do so with the knowledge that they're playing a substandard option.
Actually - no. Your math is bad. Past the first few levels TWF has the highest DPR in the game by a significant margin, though a bit weaker when not full-attacking.
Now - in terms of raw DPR, a Dex build's TWF with Deadly Agility is identical to a STR build's (they're not even behind a feat as the STR build would need Double Slice to be on even footing). However, to be as SAD, the STR build would have to dump their Dex, giving the Dex build all sorts of huge advantages. (AC/Initiative/Reflex/Skills/Mobility etc.)
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There is no max dex on a haramaki or bracers, and if you also gain wis to AC as well with a monk dip, or int to AC as a magus or duelist. It's easy for a dex build to have a higher ac than a heavy armor build for a much lower cost than a heavy armor build. Not to mention the severe armor check penalties and move speed reduction in heavy armor.Yeah, I wasn't disputing movement speed penalties.
Bracers of Armour have a +8 cap, for 64000 gp. Less than that will get you +5 full plate for +14 and a +5 heavy shield for +7. So +21 AC for less than the +8. So you need a 36 Dex just to break even there, without spending any money on Dex items, because the full plate guy still has a +3 max dex they can use if they need to.
Why are you giving the STR guy a shield but not the DEX guy? The DEX guy is MORE likely to use a shield because he can use it with TWF. The only STR builds which can TWF are Slayers & Rangers. By using a shield, most STR builds are giving up a lot of DPR vs THF. A DWZ build gives up very little damage at all. (other than fighters who commit to a single weapon - though they could potentially TWF with heavy shields with the Shield Trained feat)
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I keep hearing these claims about how Dex-to-damage breaks the game, but nobody has posted the requested proof. Just a whole lot of "It just happens, okay?!" That, and tossing out random insults and attacks at anyone who dares to doubt the total lack of presented evidence.
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I've read James saying how embarrassed he was.In fact, here.
That might not read like an apology to you - and that's fair, everyone has their preferences for formality - but it reads like one to me, including a statement of correction for future products. Again, it might not be one to you, but it works for me, personally.
Which we only received because of the negative reaction from the ACG. Even then for the longest time their defense was they just had to get out at Gencon. So I concede that their was a apology which I forgot about.
Paizo has faults, and being able to call them out on it is important, but so is being able to recognize when they make good steps, too, I think.(I think that's true of any person or group, for that matter.)
True but I don't think the fiasco with the ACG should have even happened in the first place. One time they were unable to release a book at Gencon would not have ruined the company imo. All they had to say that the ACG still needed some playtesting and fine tuning. Then release it later. With the amount of errata I can't really tell anyone I know to buy the book. Short of a second printing or used.
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I keep hearing these claims about how Dex-to-damage breaks the game, but nobody has posted the requested proof. Just a whole lot of "It just happens, okay?!" That, and tossing out random insults and attacks at anyone who dares to doubt the total lack of presented evidence.
I've posted the math several times before. Dex builds are more SAD and get all sorts of secondary benefits.
Is it totally game breaking? No. That slot still belongs to wizards.
But it makes STR builds only played by those who either don't care about being somewhat weaker and/or are doing so for flavor reasons.
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I keep hearing these claims about how Dex-to-damage breaks the game, but nobody has posted the requested proof. Just a whole lot of "It just happens, okay?!" That, and tossing out random insults and attacks at anyone who dares to doubt the total lack of presented evidence.
Well, I posted some numbers about how dex-to-damage takes finesse TWF from viable to overwhelmingly better, crushing any point to alternatives. Does cutting down on balanced alternatives count as a thing to avoid?
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Despite my feelings on the lack of a true playtest for the core which I won't go into.
To me their play tests are just a feel good public relations exercise for the fanbase. Otherwise play test or not they simply do their own thing. Which they can do. Then what's the point of a play test. A good example are the gun rules. Almost no one wanted guns targeting Touch AC. In the end despite objections to them. They ended up being printed anyway. That's why I won't participate in any such play tests.
What bothers me the most. They refuse to find or even attempt to try to find the proper middle ground on designing new material. Or nerfs. At this point in the development of the game they should know better. They just don't want to try imo.
Despite my feelings on the lack of a true playtest for the core which I won't go into.
To me their play tests are just a feel good public relations exercise for the fanbase. Otherwise play test or not they simply do their own thing. Which they can do. Then what's the point of a play test. A good example are the gun rules. Almost no one wanted guns targeting Touch AC. In the end despite objections to them. They ended up being printed anyway. That's why I won't participate in any such play tests.
What bothers me the most. They refuse to find or even attempt to try to find the proper middle ground on designing new material. Or nerfs. At this point in the development of the game they should know better. They just don't want to try imo.
Original warpriest playtest says hi as well.
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All you other swashbuckler's just imitatin'; won't the real swash please stand up, please stand up, please stand up...?
They would like to, but they had to use an Immediate action so Kip Up is on cooldown.
When it comes to the Dex to Damage TWF nonsense, it isn't as strong as people say. Damage Reduction hits you twofold, and your entire build comes 'online' when you spend 16k on a pair of Agile weapons. Hope you never have to switch to (twice as many) backup weapons to deal with that DR that ruins your day~
The other options involve, as mentioned previously, jumping through tons of hoops. Or dipping Rogue 3, which delays builds and hurts even more in PFS. And you still have to full attack in melee. And you're kind of SAD, but a Dex user is going to want 13 Strength for the sake of Power Attack for the same reason a heavy Strength user is going to want 12-13 Dex for some AC in their Plate Armor.
And you're still spending twice as much on weapons, even if you're not going Agile. And this is all before we take Archery into account, which is more affordable AND safer.
I dunno. I'm just not believing the hype.
We primarily ignore/alter ACG/ARG errata such as:
ACG
- Divine Protection works as per the errata but can be used 3 times per day. This is the biggest example of heavy-handedness that tends to come from Paizo errata.
- Daring Champions aren't prevented from taking Parry and Riposte. Daring Champions may be better Swashbucklers but removing that doesn't make Swashbucklers any better and ignores the issue at hand.
- We use the pre-errata Scarred Witch Doctor. The thing that made the archetype unique was removed. Without the Con casting our group just doesn't see the point in having it.
ARG
- Tieflings/Aasimar use their original starting ages. This was an unfortunate mistake where Golarion fluff was integrated into the PathfinderRPG line. If you want Tieflings and Aasimars with similar lifespans to Humans on Golarion that's fine but many of us would prefer to keep them with long lifespans in other settings. You'd think having the blood of an immortal would extend your life longevity but apparently not.
- Vanaras get to keep their climb speed at 30. Seriously, was nerfing it to 20 actually necessary? I find it very hard to believe that some GMs had a problem with them being fast climbers.
I'm usually fine with the way Paizo designs material but there are a few places where they really dropped the ball.
- Vanaras get to keep their climb speed at 30. Seriously, was nerfing it to 20 actually necessary? I find it very hard to believe that some GMs had a problem with them being fast climbers.
Wait, this happened? Huh. Welp, if it ever becomes relevant, it's probably going in the "nah" category, too, then. If I remember.
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When it comes to the Dex to Damage TWF nonsense, it isn't as strong as people say. Damage Reduction hits you twofold, and your entire build comes 'online' when you spend 16k on a pair of Agile weapons. Hope you never have to switch to (twice as many) backup weapons to deal with that DR that ruins your day~
DR hits you twice, but there are ways around that. Weapon Versatility to change damage types. Weapon Blanches to apply special materials as needed. Going unarmed and using Pummeling Style.
And as for the Agile Cost, With Unchained Rogue it doesn't apply, and unless I had access to Deadly Agility I'd never make a TWF dex to damage build without at least four levels of unrogue.
The other options involve, as mentioned previously, jumping through tons of hoops. Or dipping Rogue 3, which delays builds and hurts even more in PFS. And you still have to full attack in melee. And you're kind of SAD, but a Dex user is going to want 13 Strength for the sake of Power Attack for the same reason a heavy Strength user is going to want 12-13 Dex for some AC in their Plate Armor.
Dipping Rogue four doesn't really hurt that much at all, especially in PFS. You gain evasion, two rouge talents, free finesse and dex to damage, +2d6 sneak attack, and debilitating injury. All you really lose is 1 BAB and delayed access to weapon training if your other class is fighter.
As for STR, Power Attack isn't needed if you use Piranha Strike, although both are not automatically the best option to use for TWF because of the accuracy penalty for using them.
And you're still spending twice as much on weapons, even if you're not going Agile. And this is all before we take Archery into account, which is more affordable AND safer.I dunno. I'm just not believing the hype.
Yes, you are spending more on weapons, but that doesn't really hurt that much for your total WBL, and there are ways around that, such as a dagger of doubling, or using Greater Magic Weapon spells to provide the enhancement bonus.
The math is proven, TWF does have the highest DPR when able to make a full attack. The reason Archery is better is because they can always make a full attack.
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My issue with the daring champion is that they get (even after errata) both precise strike and challenge. Whose idea was it that they should get double their level to damage? It's absurd.
I have a PC one of these in my current game. It's not really all that bad. You need to be wielding a single weapon one-handed for it to work, and can't take Fighter only Feats.
Let's examine 16th level in comparison with a Swashbuckler with some 'Fighter only' Feats. Both also have Power Attack, and similar things. We'll just compare the stuff that's different.
The Cavalier gets +16 damage from Class, all the time, and +5 to hit, +32 damage when challenging. He can Challenge 6 times a day. That's enough to do it every fight, but not every opponent.
The Swashbuckler, meanwhile, has +4 to hit, +22 damage. All the time.
+1 to hit and +8 damage is certainly an advantage, but it's not an 'end of the world' kind of advantage. And that assumes certain specific Orders. If it's not Dragon or a few others, it's -4 to hit for +8 damage and just breaking even.
A Cavalier wielding a weapon with Power attack two-handed probably does +10 damage over the one handed Daring Champion for an equivalent of +26 damage and the same to-hit bonus. And, unlike the Daring champion, who has 16 damage that doesn't multiply on a crit, that all doubles on said Crit, making his DPR likely higher.
The problem with Daring Champion is, and always has been, that it's better than Swashbuckler, not that it is better than a non-Daring Champion using a falchion. Because it's really not.
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Being a better swashbuckler than the Swashbuckler isn't difficult. That class sucks and is nothing more than a dip class at best... Mostly because its designer ignored pretty much all the feedback given during the playtest, as he usually does...
So instead of improving the SB, they nerf all simar options... Because good game design is hard, you guys!
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Interesting. Thank you! ^_^
You're quite welcome. I'm always happy to be of assistance. :)
Being a better swashbuckler than the Swashbuckler isn't difficult. That class sucks and is nothing more than a dip class at best...
Yep. Which is why I House Ruled it to make it better. Honestly, it wasn't even super hard to do.