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I recently found the Iroran Paladin. It's my kind of Paladin.
There are a number of rules interactions I'm having trouble predicting how they would far with a FAQ answer.
This will be PFS, so RAW (with heavy RAI attention) is likely the safest route.
1) Iroran's Confident Defense "adds 1 point of his Charisma bonus (if any) per class level to his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class"
One of each of these statements are true:
- A The Cha is added to your Dex and then your Dex is added to your AC. This allows Cha to be added twice (Dex including Cha to AC and Cha to AC).
B The Cha is added to Dex but it ultimately is still being directly added to AC. So if you also have Cha to AC you are adding Cha twice and they will overlap.
2) Confident Defense adds to Dex and how does this interact with Max Dex:
- A Cha is being added to Dex before being applied to AC, and as such the total of your partial Cha and Dex is limited by Max Dex.
B Only Dex is limited by Max Dex, so the Cha added to Dex is after the Max Dex limiter.
3) Iroran's "gains the unarmed strike monk ability, treating his monk level as half his paladin level (minimum 1) for calculating his unarmed strike damage."
- A Levels in Iroran Paladin and Monk stack, like Monk's Robes stacks. So a 4th level Iroran and 4th level Monk would be 6th level Monk unarmed damage.
B They don't stack because they don't say they do.
What book are you looking in? That way I can read over the info before coming to a decision. Assuming I have that book, that is.
Inner Sea Combat.
As far as the actual questions go:
1. B.
2. A, since the Charisma is being added to your Dexterity mod.
3. Technically B, but I don't see why even a PFS GM would say no. Ask your VC.
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Iroran Paladin
It's messy, expect table variation and you are unlikely to get an FAQ.
1) A) It depends on the specific wording of the second ability, but as you are adding it to your dexterity modifier, not to your AC you should be fine. Same as if you had an ability that added your charisma to your shield bonus to AC and another that added your charisma to your armour bonus to AC. relevant FAQ.
2) A) since it is being added to your dex mod.
3) B) unfortunately - it would be nice if they stacked, and I suspect many GMs would houserule it that way and I certainly wouldn't question it even for PFS.
Thats 3 answers, all different, all genuinely arguable - good luck.
1A: You're not adding Cha to AC, just like enchanted armor does add an enhancement bonus to your AC.
2A: If the answer to 1 is A, the answer to 2 can only be A.
3B.
Capped by max dex. Which is not necessarily a bad thing.
The fun thing is that, by adding both cha and dex, as well as retaining the right to use light armor, you can very easily hit max dex with modest stat investment (a 14/14 would cover basic armor). So you could then mostly focus on strength for your regular attack bonuses.
You can play a light armor character with great touch AC, yet you don't need to spend a bunch of resources turning into a dex junky.
Iroran paladin is both a paladin that can deal with neutral threats (has abilities that affect any creature, rather than smite evil) and it retains a bunch of the regular tanky features (lay on hands, mercies, divine health). So this jsut lets you switch from a heavy armorpaladin with great flat footed defense to a light armored one with touch defense. All with the stats expected of a reach using paladin.
Also, you are better off with various armor options (such as a mithral breastplate) up until you get a +11 bonus. More attainable with iroran's double stats, mind you, but not likely to be hit in most games if you don't focus on them too much. Then you can start to look at the otherwise crappy armors that lack max dex.
Fair to say there is a lot of different opinions on these abilities.
Going with the most conservative opinions would be safest:
1-B Cha added to Dex is still Cha to AC and wouldn't stack with Cha to AC.
2-A Cha+Dex is capped by Max Dex.
3-B Doesn't stack
You're selling it too short. It's fine to configure worst case, but objectively speaking, it doesn't work that way.
Consider how it's written; it says "adds his Charisma bonus to his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class." I did cut out the whole "1 point" and "per class level" bits, because that adds confusion to how it's supposed to be added, those rules would still apply, but are cut out to demonstrate the additives.
Anyway, this means that you add your Charisma modifier to your Dexterity modifier, which is then calculated to your AC. Therefore, if you're 4th level, have a 14 Dexterity and an 18 Charisma, you calculate yourself as having a Dexterity bonus of 6 to your AC. A more pressing question would be whether this would be factored into your CMD; to which, I would value the worst case scenario of "No," as the class feature only mentions AC getting this benefit.
As for the limitations, the Charisma isn't replacing the Dexterity value (like you'd see in Oracle features, that state they replace and/or function as the Dexterity attribute), it's adding onto it, and doesn't change the attribute type when it does so. Therefore, it's still subject to the normal rules regarding Dexterity, such as a Maximum Dexterity Bonus, Encumberance rules, et. al.
Lastly, the phrasing of the ability says that you gain the unarmed strike ability of the monks. This means it functions as the same feature except where otherwise specified (such as treating your Monk level equal to half your class level). This is no different than something like a Two-Handed Fighter's Weapon Training functioning as the Weapon Training class feature, since it specifically mentions it functions the same way, except for a noted change.
I can see how the unarmed strike ability can be denied, as the Archer archetype of Fighter doesn't count some of its class features as Weapon Training even though they are otherwise identical to it, but when the class feature specifically says you receive the class feature of the same name, except it does X, then it's the same class feature.
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Other people have already have answered your questions, so I'll just point you to this guide for Iroran Palains in case you're interested.
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It may be the same feature, but that doesn't mean it stacks with the same feature from another source.
In fact, there's a FAQ that specifically says they don't stack unless the abilities say they do.
I've seen that FAQ. It's in regards to Channel Energy. It has this to say as to what constitutes whether it will stack:
...unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately.
The reason they don't stack is because they use different resources to determine whether they can channel or not. In the case of Paladin + Cleric, Paladins use Lay On Hands to Channel Energy, whereas Clerics have their raw resource to do so. This is why they do not stack.
That is not the case here, as you have two effects that are A. Exactly the same feature, just different scalings (resource, which is levels, stay the same) and B. are based on the total of one class' level (which Iroran Paladin levels count as for determining the benefits of this effect).
So let's say this character took some levels in Iroran Paladin and some levels in Monk. He has two Unarmed Strike class features, both of which function the same (because he gains the one from the Monk from his archetype and his base class). The only key difference is that the Iroran Paladin's Unarmed Strike treats his class levels equal to half his Monk levels (minimum 1), whereas the Monk treats his levels for a 1:1 basis.
This means a 4th level Iroran Paladin with a level 1 Monk dip would count as being a 3rd level Monk for calculating his bonus damage dice.
The Monk's Robe is where it gets tricky: If the Iroran Paladin did not take levels in Monk, then his Unarmed Strike and AC is automatically adjust to that of a 5th level Monk, which would override his Iroran Paladin unarmed strike scale if it's low enough (i.e. if it's below level 12), because the Monk's Robe specifically requires a level in Monk to increase the raw benefits of the Unarmed Strike and AC Bonus class feature, which Iroran Paladin levels do not count as (only for Unarmed Strike damage scaling). If he did take at least one level, his AC Bonus and Unarmed Strike class feature for his Monk levels would be considered 5 higher than what he actually has, because he possesses at least one level of Monk.
There's also a related FAQ regarding the Myrmidarch Magus who, if he dips levels in Fighter (or takes the Fighter VMC option), has Armor and Weapon Training effects stack (even though their level scaling is completely different), here.
Needless to say that there could be different interpretations, since we have a FAQ that says same effects from different sources don't stack, and one that says same effects from different sources do stack, but from what I can tell, this ability would function more as the latter (Weapon/Armor Training), not the former (Channel Energy).
1) Iroran's Confident Defense "adds 1 point of his Charisma bonus (if any) per class level to his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class"
One of each of these statements are true:
A The Cha is added to your Dex and then your Dex is added to your AC. This allows Cha to be added twice (Dex including Cha to AC and Cha to AC).
B The Cha is added to Dex but it ultimately is still being directly added to AC. So if you also have Cha to AC you are adding Cha twice and they will overlap.
RAW A RAI B. Were you thinking of dipping oracle? I considered this on my Ninjadin but like to avoid gray areas where possible (ironic on a ninjadin)
2) Confident Defense adds to Dex and how does this interact with Max Dex:
A Cha is being added to Dex before being applied to AC, and as such the total of your partial Cha and Dex is limited by Max Dex.
B Only Dex is limited by Max Dex, so the Cha added to Dex is after the Max Dex limiter.
A. Both RAW and RAI. Its your dex bonus, its limited. The intent is to make wearing anything but the lightest of armors inhibiting. (Or if you're a kitsune, make you go stark naked)
3) Iroran's "gains the unarmed strike monk ability, treating his monk level as half his paladin level (minimum 1) for calculating his unarmed strike damage."
A Levels in Iroran Paladin and Monk stack, like Monk's Robes stacks. So a 4th level Iroran and 4th level Monk would be 6th level Monk unarmed damage.
B They don't stack because they don't say they do.
Thanks to darksol for finding that one. Thats a good raw argument for them stacking.
I don't think the intent is that your Charisma modifier counts as its own separate modifier to your AC. If that was the case, they could've just said "adds 1 point of his Charisma bonus (if any) per class level to his AC," which they didn't do (but very easily could have).
This is not much different than having, say, a Morale Bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls, compared to a Morale Bonus to your Strength to Attack and Damage Rolls (but not skill or ability checks). The big difference in this example is that the former would not receive 1.5x (or 0.5x) modifiers for Main-hand/Off-hand, or two-handing, whereas the latter would (because it's a direct increase to the Strength score). The same concept is true here.
Another example would be Iaijutsu, which adds your Intelligence in addition to your Dexterity to Initiative, instead of it saying to add your Intelligence to your Dexterity to Initiative. This means if you get your Intelligence to Initiative from another source, they would not stack (per the FAQ), versus the latter one which would treat it as a pure (albeit modified) Dexterity check.
Should the Charisma bonus be counted as separate? For simplicity, and to prevent shenanigans, I don't see why not, but would it be counted separate in this specific instance? No.
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The reason they worded as they did was to make it 'clear' that the Charisma bonus was going to get lumped into the max Dex armor cap, lost when flat-footed, etc. You still can't add the same untyped stat bonus twice to anything, regardless of weird wording like that.
The reason they worded as they did was to make it 'clear' that the Charisma bonus was going to get lumped into the max Dex armor cap, lost when flat-footed, etc. You still can't add the same untyped stat bonus twice to anything, regardless of weird wording like that.
Except you're not adding the same statistic twice. Read the FAQ again. Here's the relevant portions:
An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier.
This FAQ says if you get an X bonus equal to your Y (Y representing one of the 6 attributes), it's still typed as X (because if it was typed as Y, the bolded clause wouldn't be present, or it'd say anything that uses your attribute modifier becomes typed to that attribute).
If you're getting a Dexterity bonus equal to your Dexterity plus Charisma modifier (to AC, at least), it's still a "Dexterity bonus," and if you get an effect that allows you to add your Charisma to your AC, it's a "Charisma bonus," which is what the FAQ is telling us how it'd work.
Even so, there are no feasible options to add his Charisma to his AC besides this feature, since the Lore or Nature Oracle options replace Dexterity entirely (which means his Charisma benefits to that effective Dexterity modifier are replaced as well).
In addition, he gains the unarmed strike monk ability, treating his monk level as half his paladin level (minimum 1) for calculating his unarmed strike damage.
Monk levels stack with monk levels, so monk levels would stack with half monk levels.
You're not gaining monk levels or effective monk levels.
You're gaining the monk unarmed strike ability with damage based on a monk of half your level.
FTFY.
If you haven't noticed, the bolded parts are exactly the same. You are gaining effective Monk levels, but only for a single class feature. It's evidenced by the fact that it's the same exact class feature. This is no different than those FCBs that say to add 1/2 to your Bard level for the effects of a performance.
I can understand why Paladin and Cleric Channel Energys don't stack. Because they require separate resources to cast, and they scale differently. The same reason why Brawler and Monk levels don't stack for determining Unarmed Strike damage (because the scale is not the same).
What I don't understand, is how effects that function exactly the same as the parent feature, and class levels counting as (or a subset of) mentioned class levels, does not stack with taking actual mentioned class levels. The Magus' Fighter Training should be evident of this. For our case, it's even named the same exact way, and has no other differences from the class feature besides "Levels = X" versus "Levels = 1/2X."
You're not gaining monk levels or effective monk levels.
You're gaining the monk unarmed strike ability with damage based on a monk of half your level.
FTFY.
If you haven't noticed, the bolded parts are exactly the same. You are gaining effective Monk levels, but only for a single class feature. It's evidenced by the fact that it's the same exact class feature. This is no different than those FCBs that say to add 1/2 to your Bard level for the effects of a performance.
I can understand why Paladin and Cleric Channel Energys don't stack. Because they require separate resources to cast, and they scale differently. The same reason why Brawler and Monk levels don't stack for determining Unarmed Strike damage (because the scale is not the same).
What I don't understand, is how effects that function exactly the same as the parent feature, and class levels counting as (or a subset of) mentioned class levels, does not stack with taking actual mentioned class levels. The Magus' Fighter Training should be evident of this. For our case, it's even named the same exact way, and has no other differences from the class feature besides "Levels = X" versus "Levels = 1/2X."
They are not the same thing.
If something said you can cast spells as a 2nd level sorcerer, and you additionally have 2 class levels or sorcerer, you don't suddenly start casting spells as a 4th level sorcerer - you instead have two different casting pools.
If they were to stack, they would have to specifically call out that they do.
Can't have two different casting pools of the same class. They either stack or only one applies at a given time.
That still doesn't explain why you can have one class feature (Channel Energy) not stack, and have another class feature (Weapon/Armor training) stack. There's no functional difference between the two, according to your argument, so how about you explain that train of thought for me, considering there is a FAQ that says the former doesn't stack, and the latter does.
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how about you explain that train of thought for me, considering there is a FAQ that says the former doesn't stack, and the latter does.
They don't function the same, the former (Channel) uses a different activation method than the latter (Training) works the same once you have it.
how about you explain that train of thought for me, considering there is a FAQ that says the former doesn't stack, and the latter does.They don't function the same, the former (Channel) uses a different activation method than the latter (Training) works the same once you have it.
So because Channel Energy requires a means of activation, it doesn't stack with itself, but because Training is a constant benefit once acquired, it stacks with itself? I mean, I kind of get it...
If that's the case then, of those two subjects, which does the Unarmed Strike ability of the Monk function more closely as?
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I kind of get it...
If that's the case then, of those two subjects, which does the Unarmed Strike ability of the Monk function more closely as?
I think more closely to the Weapon/Armor Training.
But since this whole thing is debated, there will be table variance.
Ultimately the character I'm building the difference is literally 0.5 damage. So I don't think anyone will care about 1d4 vs 1d3.
I'm pretty sure it's just a matter of they stack if they say so, they don't if they don't. Sneak Attack stacks, Training stacks, unarmed damage and channel don't. Why? Because they don't say so. PF is an inclusive set of rules. Want to allow channeling levels to stack in your home game? That is more than reasonable, but that is strictly house-ruling it.
I'm pretty sure it's just a matter of they stack if they say so, they don't if they don't. Sneak Attack stacks, Training stacks, unarmed damage and channel don't. Why? Because they don't say so. PF is an inclusive set of rules. Want to allow channeling levels to stack in your home game? That is more than reasonable, but that is strictly house-ruling it.
Training never said they stack together until a FAQ was made that stated they did.
Channel Energy never said they stack together until a FAQ was made that stated they didn't.
By the book, there should be no FAQ needed for either one, since the rule is "No stacking unless they say." So why are they FAQd? And most importantly, why are the results of the two FAQs different, when by their same rules, they should be the same?
The way I see it, at this rate, you're going to end up making a FAQ for everything that can be stacked together, to determine whether they stack or not. It makes sense too, since we have Enhancement Stacking FAQs, Size Stacking FAQs, Attribute Stacking FAQs...and soon, more.
I'll also go ahead and reference this FAQ here. Although this is more archetype related, there is another precedent regarding whether something that functions almost identical to the same thing stack or not.
Actually, to the best of my knowledge (and I missed that point in my previous post) WT only stacks for the Myrmidarch Magus, and they probably just forgot to mention it in the archetype - hence the FAQ. So that's still a consistent set of rules, not that that's a requirement for PF rulings.
Actually, to the best of my knowledge (and I missed that point in my previous post) WT only stacks for the Myrmidarch Magus, and they probably just forgot to mention it in the archetype - hence the FAQ. So that's still a consistent set of rules, not that that's a requirement for PF rulings.
I think they're the only class that actually has Weapon Training besides the Fighter.
Even so, I'm sure if there was another class that had Training and they took levels in Fighter (or took the VMC), the FAQ would apply to them just as well.
Lastly, it's okay to deviate from the norm if there's a reason why it doesn't follow the normal rules.
There's none given for why Training deviates from the normal rule, whereas Channel Energy doesn't. It just says what X is, and now we have something that does Y when it should be X. So I question what the precedent for subjects stacking/not stacking actually is, so we can determine what precedent the Unarmed Strike feature would fall under.
The Swashbuckler gets weapon training too, and it doesn't stack. The FAQ is only relevant for the Myrmidarch. I don't see what the issue is.
Swashbuckler Weapon Training is a separate feature from standard Weapon Training. It's named different, it has different effects, etc. That doesn't dismiss the Myrmidarch FAQ relevance.
This is like disputing the Paladin's Channel Positive Energy class feature is the same as the Cleric's Channel Energy class feature. They're named different, have varied effects, etc. This is why they don't stack.
That's also not taking into consideration this FAQ here regarding Animal Companions. This is relevant primarily because you have two level-dependant subjects that function almost identically, from two different classes, and the question is whether these subjects stack together or not.
Animal companion isn't relevant here, since there are rules that state the different sources stack for it. The linked FAQ just clarifies that the mount ability counts as a source of AC. And again, the FAQ for the Myrmidarch only talks about the Myrmidarch. It's irrelevant.
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Adding Cha to Dex bonus to AC is still adding a typeless stat bonus to AC.
So, no Charisma twice.
It's increasing the Dex bonus. The Dex bonus still acts as a dex bonus in all ways. Ergo, it is subject to max dex of armor.
Your Dex bonus to AC is normally included in your CMD, so it should be included here.
Counting as half monk levels should stack with monk levels for that particular feature only. For all other features...nope.
Note that monsters that have default caster class levels DO stack casting levels if they take additional levels. There's a BBEG for one of the AP's who is an evil nymph, and uses her default druid levels to help qualify for Mystic Theurge, among other examples.
==Aelryinth
@ Aelryinth: It's added to the modifier that's then added to AC. It adjusts the base modifier that you use, it's not adding a whole, separate modifier to your AC, unlike what Divine Grace and pre-errata Divine Protection did (which both added an untyped Charisma bonus to your saves).
Now, if you had two sources that added your Charisma to your Dexterity score, then those wouldn't stack together. (To be fair, though, there's no other means to add your Charisma to AC without overriding this benefit, so it's a moot point.)
Animal companion isn't relevant here, since there are rules that state the different sources stack for it. The linked FAQ just clarifies that the mount ability counts as a source of AC. And again, the FAQ for the Myrmidarch only talks about the Myrmidarch. It's irrelevant.
I'd actually like to see a citation for the AC stuff. I know it's off-topic, but if the precedent is "Doesn't stack unless it says," then I'm sure you can prove that's the case.
The point of referencing the FAQ was to demonstrate how two identical subjects that function nearly exactly the same, but have a different scaling, stack together only if their benefits are identical as well. An uncanny metaphor for how the Unarmed Strikes from the Iroran Paladin and base Monk appear to add up.
This is also why, for example, the Brawler's Unarmed Strike would not stack with the Monk's Unarmed Strike (because their benefits aren't identical).
I also agree that the Cha comes through the Dex, so it can be applied twice.
The rule of AC progression stacking is in page 51 of the core rulebook.
The reason the Iroran Unarmed Strike stacks with monk isn't because the ability is identical, but because the ability states that Iroran levels count as half a monk level, and class levels stack, as per the FAQ. Brawler levels don't count as monk levels for Unarmed Strike, so the progressions don't stack. If the aforementioned channel ability stated that you count your X-class levels as cleric levels for channel energy, then they would have stacked as well.
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Darksol, you're adding a filter that isn't there.
Adding your Cha to your Dex bonus to AC is exactly the same thing as making your Cha bonus a Dex bonus to AC, or replacing a Dex bonus to AC.
It's still a typeless, stat-derived bonus to AC. Just because it stacks with your Dex bonus doesn't mean it's going to stack with another Cha bonus, which is what you are arguing.
In effect, you are making the same argument lots of others tried to make to keep double stat effects.
The rule of thumb is, unless it's a named, different bonus, it doesn't stack.
This doesn't satisfy the criteria, so unless it's a Named bonus, twice Cha to AC isn't going to fly, here. The awkward language doesn't help, but it's not going to work.
They should have just said, "Add your Charisma and Dexterity bonuses together to determine your Dex bonus to AC. The Charisma bonus is limited to 1 pt per class level."
But not calling it a typeless stat bonus simply isn't going to work, here.
==Aelryinth
But the ability states quit plainly it's adding the Cha to the Dex bonus, not to AC. Saying it doesn't stack would be like saying enhancements bonuses on armor and shield don't stack because they are both applied to AC and are of the same type. That is not the case because they aren't applied directly to AC, just like the bonus Cha to Dex bonus.
Darksol, you're adding a filter that isn't there.
Adding your Cha to your Dex bonus to AC is exactly the same thing as making your Cha bonus a Dex bonus to AC, or replacing a Dex bonus to AC.
No, I'm not, and no, it's not.
Think that math through here. Let's say we have 14 Dexterity and 18 Charisma.
With the Iroran Paladin ability, this allows us to calculate our Dexterity bonus to AC equal to our Dexterity Modifier plus our Charisma Modifier (2 + 4), equating having an effective Dexterity bonus of 6 to our AC. (This doesn't apply to CMD, of course, because this modifies an existing bonus for a specific statistic.)
Mathematically speaking, the rule stating you add your Charisma in addition to your Dexterity to AC results in your Charisma bonus to AC not being limited by Maximum Dexterity Bonus. This means that if I wore an O-yoroi, I would not overstep the Maximum Dexterity bonus (whereas if we went with the above, I would, greatly decreasing my overall defensive output). This can also be contested to apply to CMD as well, because it is its own, separate type being added to AC, and any untyped effect that adds to AC, unless specifying otherwise, adds to CMD too (whereas if we went with the above, it wouldn't apply because it modifies a base modifier to a specific statistic, and that specific statistic only).
Now, if we had an effect that replaces Dexterity to AC entirely, in addition to this ability, it wouldn't stack. This is because the Iroran Paladin ability modifies the base statistic being applied to AC. Any effect that replaces Dexterity to AC with, say, Charisma to AC (such as a Nature or Lore Oracle), would cut out the benefits of the Iroran Paladin ability (because the modified ability to AC applies to the base modifier, which is being replaced).
again, you're making a filter that isn't there.
That sentence of "adds 1 point of his Charisma bonus (if any) per class level to his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class" means you are adding a typeless bonus to a typeless bonus at best. At worst, it means you are adding two different typeless bonuses, and the 'dexterity bonus' language is just there to tell you it uses the Dexterity rules for when it does and doesn't apply, i.e. they accumulate together.
You are seeing the Cha bonus as 'changing and adding' to the Dex bonus, 'becoming' a dex bonus and thus allowing another Cha bonus. It's an unnecessary step of interpretation.
I'm just seeing a Cha bonus that stacks with and acts like a Dex bonus.
Neither obviates the fact that both are typeless bonuses to AC. You are trying to nitpick on fine points of language, and get around the intent of the ruling.
Paizo clearly doesn't want double and triple stacking stat bonuses without specifically allowing them. You are trying to rules-lawyer around the English to circumvent the default restriction and intent.
The question shouldn't be "Does the ability deny the stacking?" to "Does the ability explicitly permit the stacking?" And no, it doesn't explicitly permit double stacking of Cha to AC.
Armor and shield enhancements are EXCELLENT examples of this. Both are armor bonuses. But the rules explicitly tell you that shield and armor bonuses stack, and let you get away with it...because the tradeoff is one hand occupied and a major decrease in damage.
No such explicit instruction works here, and prior precedent is that Paizo doesn't want doubling up on stat bonuses. Ergo, no stacking Cha to Ac twice, regardless if one acts like Dex and the other does not.
The English is bad and could have been better, but Paizo has been very upfront repeatedly about their intentions.
==Aelryinth
again, you're making a filter that isn't there.
That sentence of "adds 1 point of his Charisma bonus (if any) per class level to his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class" means you are adding a typeless bonus to a typeless bonus at best. At worst, it means you are adding two different typeless bonuses, and the 'dexterity bonus' language is just there to tell you it uses the Dexterity rules for when it does and doesn't apply, i.e. they accumulate together.
You are seeing the Cha bonus as 'changing and adding' to the Dex bonus, 'becoming' a dex bonus and thus allowing another Cha bonus. It's an unnecessary step of interpretation.
I'm just seeing a Cha bonus that stacks with and acts like a Dex bonus.Neither obviates the fact that both are typeless bonuses to AC. You are trying to nitpick on fine points of language, and get around the intent of the ruling.
Paizo clearly doesn't want double and triple stacking stat bonuses without specifically allowing them. You are trying to rules-lawyer around the English to circumvent the default restriction and intent.
The question shouldn't be "Does the ability deny the stacking?" to "Does the ability explicitly permit the stacking?" And no, it doesn't explicitly permit double stacking of Cha to AC.
Armor and shield enhancements are EXCELLENT examples of this. Both are armor bonuses. But the rules explicitly tell you that shield and armor bonuses stack, and let you get away with it...because the tradeoff is one hand occupied and a major decrease in damage.
No such explicit instruction works here, and prior precedent is that Paizo doesn't want doubling up on stat bonuses. Ergo, no stacking Cha to Ac twice, regardless if one acts like Dex and the other does not.The English is bad and could have been better, but Paizo has been very upfront repeatedly about their intentions.
==Aelryinth
If they were intended to function separately, they would've written it as such. They've done it before with Iaijutsu from Kensai Maguses. (Magi? Whatever.) They could've also put in a clause that it counts towards your Maximum Dexterity Bonus for armor if the concern is they want it to function like a Dexterity bonus, like they have with the Oracle abilities. There's zero reason for them to not do that if they were intended to function as you're claiming them to, and it can easily be written as such. So why aren't they?
I trust Paizo to not make stupid errors like that way before myself or another author, or even you, if only because of their business experience and primary sourcing, versus secondary/tertiary sources, so it makes the most sense that they purposefully altered it to function different than what you're claiming, because they could have just as easily made it like their other entries that add/replace multiple statistics, which function as you say.
Remember the Iroran paladin isn't a fairly recent PrC. It's what, 2-3 years old? older? Probably before the actual ruling, and when they started to take care to differentiate what stacked and what didn't.
Regardless, most PrC's are done out of house and only gone over with an editing comb. The editors can't be expected to remember that over here is a Cha to AC and this is a Cha to AC to Dex ability, and people should know they don't stack, so why are they doing this?
And, every time that stacking stats has come into question as not clear, Paizo has pretty much come down on 'not stacking unless the bonus is Named Different', which it clearly is not in this case.
So while you can try to make a different case here, in the end you're trying to play language semantics to get around the default of No Stack.
==Aelryinth
So Aelrynth, an enhancement bonus to your shield doesn't stack with an enhancement bonus to your armour?
Because that is essentially what we are talking about here. Adding that 'step' means that stacking is not an issue with non-stackable modifiers. They are modifying different things so do not interact directly.
So Aelrynth, an enhancement bonus to your shield doesn't stack with an enhancement bonus to your armour?
Because that is essentially what we are talking about here. Adding that 'step' means that stacking is not an issue with non-stackable modifiers. They are modifying different things so do not interact directly.
One is an enhancement bonus to shield bonus and one is an enhancement bonus to armor bonus, which are different named bonuses.
Your dex bonus to AC is not a named bonus; this comparison is irrelevant.
So Aelrynth, an enhancement bonus to your shield doesn't stack with an enhancement bonus to your armour?
Because that is essentially what we are talking about here. Adding that 'step' means that stacking is not an issue with non-stackable modifiers. They are modifying different things so do not interact directly.
One is an enhancement bonus to shield bonus and one is an enhancement bonus to armor bonus, which are different named bonuses.
Your dex bonus to AC is not a named bonus; this comparison is irrelevant.
If it's not a named bonus, then why is it typed to one of the 6 Attributes? In other words, why do you call it a Dexterity Bonus? Why not called it an Untyped Bonus equal to your Dexterity modifier? Oh wait, that's because of this.
The FAQ says anything that's untyped whose benefits scale with one of the 6 attributes is typed to that attribute. The FAQ even cites Divine Grace's "bonus equal to your Charisma" as constituting a "Charisma Bonus."
The comparison is relevant because it's pointing out that an Enhancement Bonus to two different subjects (i.e. Charisma to Dexterity and Charisma to AC) stack together because they enhance two separate statistics, whereas Aelryinth is stating that because Charisma enhances Dexterity, which enhances AC, it doesn't get added to AC again. Which makes no sense, since an Enhancement bonus to Armor, which is added to AC, shouldn't get increased from an Enhancement bonus to a Shield, which is added to AC, according to his argument.
Sure it is. Dexterity is a separate named bonus to you armour class equivalent to shield or armour. A direct modifier to your base armour class is a different thing.
And that is the very essence of how stacking works.
I have a number of modifiers to AC.
Shield
Dexterity
Armour
Natural Armour
Deflection
Dodge
Straight to AC.
A non-stacking modifier to any one of them does not and can not affect the others.
There is nothing in the FAQ or anywhere to treat ability modifiers any differently to any other non-stacking modifier.
Or do you think that if I add my charisma to my shield bonus to AC and my charisma to my armour bonus to AC one of them doesn't work?
Sure it is. Dexterity is a separate named bonus to you armour class equivalent to shield or armour. A direct modifier to your base armour class is a different thing.
And that is the very essence of how stacking works.
I have a number of modifiers to AC.
Shield
Dexterity
Armour
Natural Armour
Deflection
Dodge
Straight to AC.
A non-stacking modifier to any one of them does not and can not affect the others.There is nothing in the FAQ or anywhere to treat ability modifiers any differently to any other non-stacking modifier.
Or do you think that if I add my charisma to my shield bonus to AC and my charisma to my armour bonus to AC one of them doesn't work?
My reading is that the FAQ does not establish the ability score modifiers as a new kind of 'typed' bonus. So 'add your Charisma bonus to your Dex bonus' is not, to my reading, the same thing as their 'add a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma bonus' example. Those are still untyped bonuses and cannot stack.
My reading is that the FAQ does not establish the ability score modifiers as a new kind of 'typed' bonus. So 'add your Charisma bonus to your Dex bonus' is not, to my reading, the same thing as their 'add a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma bonus' example. Those are still untyped bonuses and cannot stack.Sure it is. Dexterity is a separate named bonus to you armour class equivalent to shield or armour. A direct modifier to your base armour class is a different thing.
And that is the very essence of how stacking works.
I have a number of modifiers to AC.
Shield
Dexterity
Armour
Natural Armour
Deflection
Dodge
Straight to AC.
A non-stacking modifier to any one of them does not and can not affect the others.There is nothing in the FAQ or anywhere to treat ability modifiers any differently to any other non-stacking modifier.
Or do you think that if I add my charisma to my shield bonus to AC and my charisma to my armour bonus to AC one of them doesn't work?
...the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)"...
*blink*
wat
It says clearly that if it's untyped and equal to an attribute, it's considered to be the same as if using the raw attribute itself to the given statistic (i.e. it becomes the Charisma modifier itself).
If the intent is you cannot double-dip a statistic (unless the text says 1.5x Strength, for example) when you have two effects that allow you to, then it's clear that the attribute is considered its own type when you have two separate sources granting you that benefit, which means it won't stack. It can either be its own source (i.e. what the rules will normally allow them to apply to), or its own type, but in this case it's certainly not both.
If you refer to Dexterity and Charisma are Untyped Bonuses that cannot stack with themselves, then by your reading, you can only ever receive one Attribute to one statistic at any given time, which means you're trying to say that the class feature doesn't stack with any given Dexterity Bonus you have, which means you only receive either your Dexterity or your Charisma to AC. Which makes no sense given how it's worded.
there's no functional difference between a str dex con int wis or charisma bonus being a typed bonus and an untyped bonus that won't stack with itself.