Do temporary hit points count as hit points?

[MichaelCullen]

I asked this question of Mark Seifter in his thread.
He stated how he runs it but it is not clear and that it would make a good FAQ candidate.

Do temporary hit points count as hit points for the purposes of spells such as symbol of death?

Mark wrote this

Mark Seifter wrote:

Our group usually has them count, but we know we've made a house ruling, and it's not a slam dunk, since "The damage they sustained is not transferred to the character's current hit points." vs. "Any creature that currently has 101 or more hit points" both using current hit points in a way that implies temp hp aren't in them. Good FAQ candidate!

The CRB has this to say about temporary hitpoints

Temporary Hit Points wrote:

Certain effects give a character temporary hit points. These hit points are in addition to the character's current hit point total and any damage taken by the character is subtracted from these hit points first. Any damage in excess of a character's temporary hit points is applied to his current hit points as normal. If the effect that grants the temporary hit points ends or is dispelled, any remaining temporary hit points go away. The damage they sustained is not transferred to the character's current hit points.

When temporary hit points are lost, they cannot be restored as real hit points can be, even by magic.

Please post how you run this and hit FAQ if you don't mind.

[Diego Rossi]

I would say that they don't count.
Faqed

[dragonhunterq]

FAQd
I don't run symbols often, but probably wouldn't count them simply as locally we keep temp hitpoints as a separate pool. I doubt I would have even considered adding them together.

[Val'bryn2]

I would, because it does state that these are in addition to the character's current hit point total. Keep in separate, we've seen the madness that was a barbarian's temp hp, but they should still count.

[MichaelCullen]

Val,
You make an interesting point with the unchained barbarian's pool of temporary hit points.

[Torbyne]

Sometimes yes and sometimes no?

So, life drain that give you 5 hp from a successful attack? That still triggers effects from hits.

Force Ward? "If an attack deals less damage than you still have as temporary hit points from force ward, it still reduces those temporary hit points but otherwise counts as a miss for the purpose of abilities that trigger on a hit or a miss."

It is a bad mash up of logical thinking vs rules. Temp Hit Points are a lump representation of increased durability. Sometimes its supernaturally strengthening your body and other times it is creating a new defensive layer around someone.

[Gilfalas]

I would say they are hit points for the purposes you suggest. It says in their description they are hit point and are added to the characters total. They are just special in 3 ways in that they can take you over your normal max, they cannot be healed when lost and they are lost first when taking damage.

Aside from those three anomalies I don't see where it says to treat them as anything but hit points.

[Vanykrye]

I personally think they should count, but I can see the confusion.

[MichaelCullen]

Definitely some varying opinions on this one.

[QuidEst]

If they don't count, can't you just bypass them with nonlethal?

[Valantrix1]

I think they should count also.

[Imbicatus]

I think they shouldn't count. They don't effect non-lethal damage at all as it is.

[MichaelCullen]

Imbicatus wrote:

I think they shouldn't count. They don't effect non-lethal damage at all as it is.

What happens when your non lethal damage equals your current normal hitpoints? Can temporary hitpoints keep you conscious?

[CampinCarl9127]

Huh, good question. It certainly isn't covered anywhere in the RAW.

I would count them.

[BigNorseWolf]

Count em

[kinevon]

They are handled in very inconsistent ways, honestly.

Could a Contingencied False Life keep a character from going unconscious? Hit for Y hit points, going to -1 hit point, then the Contingency goes off, giving you 1d10+X temporary hit points, If the total temps is enough to bring your total above -1, do you stay standing?

One of the Rogue Talents is that when your hit points go below zero, this talent gives you a pool of temporary hit points, and that they keep your character not only alive, but conscious.

[alexd1976]

They are temporary HIT POINTS, not temporary points that act as if they are hitpoints but called something else.

The name says it all.

Hit points count as hit points...

Temporary is just a duration, so count them.

[Dekalinder]

'm too in the camp that it should count, even if based on the current language I'd have to rule that they do not.

[Naal]

I would count them. I'd feel like a cheat if a character recognized a symbol of death, boosted his hp with false life and died passing it. What would I say? "Ha ha, your hp are not really hp"?

[Torbyne]

alexd1976 wrote:

They are temporary HIT POINTS, not temporary points that act as if they are hitpoints but called something else.

The name says it all.

Hit points count as hit points...

Temporary is just a duration, so count them.

The problem is many sources of Temporary Hit Points have a qualifier statement that those temp HP dont act like regular HP. The Aetherkineticist is most obvious about it by stating that if an attack doesnt entirely deplete the temp HP then it couts as a miss.

But those are specific cases for those sources of Temp HP. Not all have the same qualifier on them either.

If you are a dual element Earth/Aether Kineticist with a tech guide force field up then you have two pools of temp HP and DR. so with Force Field Force Ward and HP which has DR protecting it?

EDIT: Further reflecting on the rules for Temp HP, despite the many sources and abilities they attempt to emulate, there are no strict rules to differentiate them from HP aside from what each source calls out. Thus i assume that Temp HP are always treated as normal HP except as called out in their individual specific rules. in my above example then i would assume that the force field takes on the resistances and DR of the user despite what my internal sense of logic says.

[MichaelCullen]

Another pertinent question is What happens if a dying creature receives temporary hit points?
Do they stabilize?
Can they regain consciousness?
What happens when the temporary hit points expire?

[Dave Justus]

We have three terms in the rules. Hit Points, Maximum Hit Points, and Current Hit Point Total. These three terms cover two concepts, how many HP you can have when fully healed something that is more or less a constant during a specific adventure, and how badly wounded you are which generally goes up and down all the time, but can't be higher than maximum HP. The generic term Hit Points usually, but not always refers to maximum hit points in the rules, if context doesn't show that they are talking about currant hit points, then that is what you should assume it to mean.

Temporary hit points do not affect how many maximum hit points you have. The are 'in addition to the current hit point total' and constitute a separate pool that is used first, but despite the name being similar they do not effect the stat on your character sheet labeled hit points.

Disabled, dying and dead are all measured against current hit point total. Temporary hit points are expressly an addition to that stat, it you have temporary hit points your 'currant hit point total' = maximum hit points - wounds + temporary hit points, so temporary hit points work just fine to keep you conscious and or alive. If they expire, you are back to the formula without them. If your currant hit point total is < 0 you fall unconscious.

[shadowkras]

There has been any news about this issue?

[shadowkras]

I asked on the Ask James Jacobs thread and the answer was this:

• They regain consciousness if the temporary hit points would put them at or over an effective hp of zero.
  
• They do not stabilize, so they continue to lose 1 hp per round until they stabilize.
  
• They would lose 1 hp per round, but they lose first from temporary hit points.
  

[Pathfinder Design Team]

Answered in FAQ!

FAQ wrote:

Temporary Hit Points: When determining my current hit point total for effects like power word kill, do I include my temporary hit points?

Yes, add your temporary hit points together with your remaining normal hit points to determine your hit point total for the purpose of effects that have differing effects based on your current hit point total.

[Ascalaphus]

Neat.

[Garbage-Tier Waifu]

Yay!