Greetings all. I was lamenting over the blandness of the cleric class restricted to the core rulebook to train some new players with and I decided to make a cleric that two weapon fights with light crossbows. Well, I think I did something wrong. It has a dex of 19 for a mod of +4 at level 6 as a human with the +2 and the level 4 +1 both into dex. It has weapon focus light crossbow and each has an enhancement of +1 as well as bab +4 at level 6 for a grand total of +10 attack bonus. However, light crossbows state that if you fight with two light crossbows you take a -2 penalty on top of the two weapon fighting penalty of -2. Well, for bookkeeping I plugged the numbers into hero lab. If I am right my crossbow attacks should be at +10 - 2 twf - 2 crossbows = an attack bonus of +6 each but hero lab has my attack bonus at +4. Which is correct? This is my first foray into the world of crossbows.
Forgive the spelling errors as this is from my phone. :(
Thanks.
How are you reloading those crossbows?
Level 6 Cleric, 19 Dex, Weapon Focus, +1 magic
4 BAB + 4 dex +1 focus +1 magic = +10 to hit
You didn't mention having TWF.
Normally, fighting with two light crossbows act as if fighting with two light weapons. -4/-8 penalties
Crossbows add -2 for using one handed. Total penalty is -6/-10
That would give you +4/+0 for your attacks
If you DO have TWF that gives normal penalties of -2/-2, plus the crossbow penalty of -2, total penalty is -4/-4
So the attack bonus is +6/+6
Level 6 Cleric, 19 Dex, Weapon Focus, +1 magic
4 BAB + 4 dex +1 focus +1 magic = +10 to hit
You didn't mention having TWF.
Normally, fighting with two light crossbows act as if fighting with two light weapons. -4/-8 penalties
Crossbows add -2 for using one handed. Total penalty is -6/-10
That would give you +4/+0 for your attacks
If you DO have TWF that gives normal penalties of -2/-2, plus the crossbow penalty of -2, total penalty is -4/-4
So the attack bonus is +6/+6
I thought I mentioned two weapon fighting? I guess my phone autocompleted it, grrr.
So I was right, it would be +6/+6. Thanks guys and/or gals, may you all natural 20s for the rest of the week ^_^
How are you reloading those crossbows?
I would also like to know the answer to this...
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Glove of Storing?
► park one in the Gove, reload the other, switch crossbows between hands, park the full one, reload the empty one, switch back, unpark the 2nd. All with free actions.
Juggler splash?
How are you reloading those crossbows?I would also like to know the answer to this...
[sarcasm]There are several people who believe that the hand limits only come into play when making an attack, so reloading using his butt-cheeks is perfectly valid by that interpretation[/sarcasm]
Glove of Storing?
► park one in the Gove, reload the other, switch crossbows between hands, park the full one, reload the empty one, switch back, unpark the 2nd. All with free actions.Juggler splash?
oh wow, the cheese is real. you sir will have just caused my gm several minutes of groaning and facepalming, congratulations
oh wow, the cheese is real. you sir will have just caused my gm several minutes of groaning and facepalming, congratulationsGlove of Storing?
► park one in the Gove, reload the other, switch crossbows between hands, park the full one, reload the empty one, switch back, unpark the 2nd. All with free actions.Juggler splash?
Nah, I don't think so. Remember, the crossbow bolt just sits on top of the crossbow. If you tip your crossbow too much, the bolt just falls off. This is no more possible than "store one longbow in the glove, reload the other, switch the longbow between hands, store the loaded one, reload the empty one, switch back, unstore the 2nd."
You can store the crossbow in the glove or the bolt, but not both - that would require storing two items in the glove.
Cheese averted.
I don't think needing a 10,000gp magic item to fight in a sub par manner really qualifies as "cheese."
But yes, it doesn't work since the glove holds one item, and a bolt would be a second item.
I once offered a plausible solution. Depending on how you define plausible:
Then again, one could go really far out in a world with all kinds of magic and monsters. Maybe your heavy crossbow has little pixies that live in the stock. After you fire it they come out and cock it and reload it for you (their action, not yours, so you can fire once per round). Heck, those little tikerbells might even get under the stock and flap their wings to lift it, ever so much, just enough that it doesn't feel so heavy. No -2 penalty to hit for you!
I guess that depends on your definition of "plausible". Expect table variance.
oh wow, the cheese is real. you sir will have just caused my gm several minutes of groaning and facepalming, congratulationsGlove of Storing?
► park one in the Gove, reload the other, switch crossbows between hands, park the full one, reload the empty one, switch back, unpark the 2nd. All with free actions.Juggler splash?
Nah, I don't think so. Remember, the crossbow bolt just sits on top of the crossbow. If you tip your crossbow too much, the bolt just falls off. This is no more possible than "store one longbow in the glove, reload the other, switch the longbow between hands, store the loaded one, reload the empty one, switch back, unstore the 2nd."
You can store the crossbow in the glove or the bolt, but not both - that would require storing two items in the glove.
Cheese averted.
eh, not necessarily only talking about crossbows (out of curiosity would you say the same thing about loaded guns? what about javelins with ammentum?)
now, the following scenarios popped into my head in response to a perceived challenge to cheesiness and in no way reflect what i would do in an actual game (well not a serious one anyway):
if i stick a line of javelins in the dirt in my square (or drop a bag of daggers into my square/throwing axes etc.) and use a free action to grasp one, then a free action to store it, then another free action to retrieve it into the hand holding it, then i just circumvented the quickdraw feat entirely and can use my BAB to full effect with thrown weapons.
If an opponent is coming at me and i make an unarmed attack (touch attack?) to grab a piece of his gear can i store the gear? maybe this requires the aimed shots system? (this would make for a pretty impressive quick-change stage show bard)
In a similar vein to the last one, if i am handcuffed/shackled for my blatant cheese can i grab the handcuffs and store them?
if some clever GM decided to tie weights to the handcuffs to circumvent the weight limit would the weights fall off when i stored it since they aren't technically part of the handcuffs?
is the "oneness" of the item only limited by the user's perception, such that if i grabbed a robot's arm and stored what was in my hand the rest of the robot would remain? or would nothing happen since the whole robot is more than 20lbs?
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Using Gloves of Storing to dual-wield crossbows is "insane cheese" now? Chill. The f@*~. Out. guys.
nobody said "insane" cheese, just regular cheese
But overreacting and adding inflammatory adjectives lets us say "Chill. The f$#$. Out. guys" and stroll off into the sunset like we're cooler than we actually are.
never understood why vestigial arm was so popular when you could have a tentacle instead, make it sprout out of your forearm and wrap around your wrist and you've got a very handy bracelet/torque thing that can help you reload your crossbows
or we just dip alchemist for the vestigial arm. Nobody have ever disagreed over that that ability does...Nope. It makes you look like a monstrous freak with a third arm, and thus unable to fit in with civilization. But hey, you can TWF with crossbows... Yay?
Or move into a Kasatha village and claim you lost your fourth arm in a horrible freak basket weaving accident and apply for disability payments thus eliminating the need for dangerous adventuring altogether.
never understood why vestigial arm was so popular when you could have a tentacle instead, make it sprout out of your forearm and wrap around your wrist and you've got a very handy bracelet/torque thing that can help you reload your crossbows
A witch with prehensile hair hex works as well.
Maybe a Monkey Goblin or Vanara could use their tail to help reload....?
Maybe a Monkey Goblin or Vanara could use their tail to help reload....?
Don't know about Monkey Goblin but Vansara tail only says it can store and retrieve items. Prehensile hair, tentacle discovery and vestigial arm discovery all say they are able to manipulate items.
So not sure that the tail would be able to do it.
or Zaphod Beeblebrox... except Arthur
quote="Torbyne"]Well the tail certainly cant help reload when it is tri-wielding your third light crossbow. We all agree on that at least.
What about a Vanara alchemist with a tentacle on his tail?
or Zaphod Beeblebrox... except Arthur
Only because he is one hoopy frood.
Well the tail certainly cant help reload when it is tri-wielding your third light crossbow. We all agree on that at least.What about a Vanara alchemist with a tentacle on his tail?
or Zaphod Beeblebrox... except Arthur
Only because he is one hoopy frood.
T.E.E.
Tentacles Everywhere for Everyone!
Remember, the crossbow bolt just sits on top of the crossbow. If you tip your crossbow too much, the bolt just falls off.
Use a barreled crossbow (also: slurbow): a crossbow with a wooden leaf on the top of the tiller with a slot on each side for the string. This device would have been useful for shooting in vertical or near vertical situations, or for mounted crossbowmen, who could keep the crossbow spanned and loaded while riding without the possibility of the bolt falling from the lath.
As a side: historically, a clamp of sorts was used to hold quarrels in the firing track for special purposes, such as castle murder holes, and for crossbowmen to stand atop a castle wall and fire down at a steep angle at attackers near the base of the wall. However, these clips made the quarrel's flight very unstable as it essentially had to burst out of the clip while it was being fired down the firing track. Consequently, this would only be practical for short range firing (murder holes had a maximum line-of-sight of about 40' so the quarrel never had to travel farther than that). If we're still looking for realism, trying to put such a clip on a crossbow would allow more reliable travel with a drawn and loaded crossbow, but would drastically reduce the firing range. Arbitrarily, I would say reduce it to half the listed ranges for the various crossbows.
Hate to break it to you but i am fairly certain that a tentacle tail only gives you reach with the tail and doesn't alter the basic rules of handedness that all three armed single tailed PCs must follow.Well the tail certainly cant help reload when it is tri-wielding your third light crossbow. We all agree on that at least.What about a Vanara alchemist with a tentacle on his tail?
or Zaphod Beeblebrox... except Arthur
Only because he is one hoopy frood.
Dang it you are right. However, an Vanara alchemist/witch/rogue with a tentacle on his tail and prehensile hair growing from the tentacle(it doesn't specify head hair) would have an insanely long reach.
Don't know about Monkey Goblin but Vansara tail only says it can store and retrieve items. Prehensile hair, tentacle discovery and vestigial arm discovery all say they are able to manipulate items.So not sure that the tail would be able to do it.
No, it doesn't say it can only store and retrieve items.
Monkey goblins have long, flexible tails that they can use to carry objects. They cannot wield weapons with their tails, but the tails do allow them to retrieve small objects stowed on their persons as a swift action.
A vanara has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.
Switching hands is a free action. You hand one crossbow to your tail, reload the other. Hand the empty crossbow back to your hand, and hand the loaded crossbow to your tail. Reload the 2nd crossbow. Hand the loaded crossbow to your hand.
The tail doesn't do any reloading itself.
A DM is, of course, allowed to limit free actions if he desires.
Don't know about Monkey Goblin but Vansara tail only says it can store and retrieve items. Prehensile hair, tentacle discovery and vestigial arm discovery all say they are able to manipulate items.So not sure that the tail would be able to do it.
No, it doesn't say it can only store and retrieve items.
Monkey goblins have long, flexible tails that they can use to carry objects. They cannot wield weapons with their tails, but the tails do allow them to retrieve small objects stowed on their persons as a swift action.A vanara has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.Switching hands is a free action. You hand one crossbow to your tail, reload the other. Hand the empty crossbow back to your hand, and hand the loaded crossbow to your tail. Reload the 2nd crossbow. Hand the loaded crossbow to your hand.
The tail doesn't do any reloading itself.
A DM is, of course, allowed to limit free actions if he desires.
Good catch. My mind was so hung up on the tail doing the reloading I didn't think about just holding the crossbow with the tail.
Not that I would allow any such shenanigans at my table but RAW is RAW.
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Don't know about Monkey Goblin but Vansara tail only says it can store and retrieve items. Prehensile hair, tentacle discovery and vestigial arm discovery all say they are able to manipulate items.So not sure that the tail would be able to do it.
No, it doesn't say it can only store and retrieve items.
Monkey goblins have long, flexible tails that they can use to carry objects. They cannot wield weapons with their tails, but the tails do allow them to retrieve small objects stowed on their persons as a swift action.A vanara has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.Switching hands is a free action. You hand one crossbow to your tail, reload the other. Hand the empty crossbow back to your hand, and hand the loaded crossbow to your tail. Reload the 2nd crossbow. Hand the loaded crossbow to your hand.
The tail doesn't do any reloading itself.
A DM is, of course, allowed to limit free actions if he desires.
Good catch. My mind was so hung up on the tail doing the reloading I didn't think about just holding the crossbow with the tail.
Not that I would allow any such shenanigans at my table but RAW is RAW.
How do you feel about the shenanigans of combining rapid shot and manyshot on a composite longbow? Because it's more damage with less effort than using the rules legal way of having a specific race use a prehensile tail to enable TWF with crossbows.
How do you feel about the shenanigans of combining rapid shot and manyshot on a composite longbow? Because it's more damage with less effort than using the rules legal way of having a specific race use a prehensile tail to enable TWF with crossbows.
Don't know about Monkey Goblin but Vansara tail only says it can store and retrieve items. Prehensile hair, tentacle discovery and vestigial arm discovery all say they are able to manipulate items.So not sure that the tail would be able to do it.
No, it doesn't say it can only store and retrieve items.
Monkey goblins have long, flexible tails that they can use to carry objects. They cannot wield weapons with their tails, but the tails do allow them to retrieve small objects stowed on their persons as a swift action.A vanara has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.Switching hands is a free action. You hand one crossbow to your tail, reload the other. Hand the empty crossbow back to your hand, and hand the loaded crossbow to your tail. Reload the 2nd crossbow. Hand the loaded crossbow to your hand.
The tail doesn't do any reloading itself.
A DM is, of course, allowed to limit free actions if he desires.
Good catch. My mind was so hung up on the tail doing the reloading I didn't think about just holding the crossbow with the tail.
Not that I would allow any such shenanigans at my table but RAW is RAW.
You just wanted a chance to type the word shenanigans didn't you? Don't be embarrassed you can admit it. This is a safe space. It is so fun, I love that word.
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hey farva, whats the name of that restaurant you like again?
hey farva, whats the name of that restaurant you like again?
First a hitchhiker's guide reference, then a bayesian thinking joke, and now this. You, sir, are on a roll today! Bravo.
hey farva, whats the name of that restaurant you like again?
Well played, sir. Well played.