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Following the success of Lords of the Night, Dreamscarred Press's foray into vampire teen romance specific storytelling options for the Pathfinder Roleplaying System, we've decided to continue exploring these monstrous themes with the addition of a second book to the Lords of _______ series. Lords of the Wild brings new options to players and GMs looking to add new layers to their game through the addition of rules and material regarding the use of werewolves and other shapeshifters in a campaign.
Inside the playtest document you'll find the new Werewolf Template, new class archetypes, new feats and spells, options for expanding roleplay, insights into werewolf society and an all new discipline*. This material is all contained inside a single living document and still subject to change throughout the playtest, so keep an eye out for announcements about new additions and changes going forward.
For those of you unfamiliar with me, I'm Elric. I've previously worked with Dreamscarred Press on their Path of War: Expanded book as well as the Steelforge releases. This is the first project that I'm acting as lead designer for and I'm very excited to bring it to you alongside my co-author, Keledrath (I'll let him introduce himself). But enough about me, here's what you all actually want:
Lords of the Wild Playtest Document
*The presence of this new discipline is in no way a guarantee that future supplements will also include new martial disciplines.
I'm Keledrath, folks. Fairly new to the scene, and new to these particular forums completely. I poked a few things for Elric in PoW:E, and recently submitted an addition to Steelforge. That said, I look forward to seeing what you all think of what Elric and I have done here.
Cross posting:
My initial Read brought these things to mind in no particular order:
1) perhaps introduce equipment that shapeshifts for werewolves/shapeshifter but also has special/different bonuses when in it’s shifted form?
2) I would add a time limit to how long can pass before Wolfsbane becomes ineffective in curing lycanthropy.
3) do werewolves recognize other werewolves on sight/smell?
4) I think it would be both cool and unique to tackle werewolves from the OTHER direction; a wolf contracting lycanthopy and gaining a hybrid and a humanoid form.
5) werewolf lifespans: are we looking at Underworld style immortality, or is aging a thing that is still happening.
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I might have missed it, but does this address werecreatures and the disguise skill? Technically having a different subtype should ruire a disguise check for werefolk to pass as humans, yet to have a werewolf unseen among us is a well known trope.
Also, sucks to hear that a new discipline will not be a staple of this series, as I always felt that if there was one thing that disciplines were missing was a solid thematic background, issue that was tackled perfectly in both LotN and here. Would it be too much to ask for a tradition also, a pack themed one would be amazing.
I might have missed it, but does this address werecreatures and the disguise skill? Technically having a different subtype should ruire a disguise check for werefolk to pass as humans, yet to have a werewolf unseen among us is a well known trope.
Werecreatures still have the same race and their appearance does not change at all in human form. Simply gaining a subtype is not enough to cause a disguise check to be required.
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Cross posting:
My initial Read brought these things to mind in no particular order:
1) perhaps introduce equipment that shapeshifts for werewolves/shapeshifter but also has special/different bonuses when in it’s shifted form?
2) I would add a time limit to how long can pass before Wolfsbane becomes ineffective in curing lycanthropy.
3) do werewolves recognize other werewolves on sight/smell?
4) I think it would be both cool and unique to tackle werewolves from the OTHER direction; a wolf contracting lycanthopy and gaining a hybrid and a humanoid form.
5) werewolf lifespans: are we looking at Underworld style immortality, or is aging a thing that is still happening.
1. There is still more material to come, so additional items and other features may show up later in the playtest. That is an interesting idea though, I’ll take a look at it.
2. Wolfsbane has no time limit on its effectiveness for the lycanthrope 1st party template. The werewolf template is a possibility, though I’m not sure what timetable, if any, I’d want to put on it.3. Werewolves recognize each other as easily as normal humans would, unless they’re in hybrid or wolf form. This is probably something that will be expanded on later.
4. Those already exist with the Therianthrope template from another 3rd party source and are likely outside the scope of this book.
5. Immortality is an ability that would have to be called out in rules text, as it does not exist in the rules for the template, you can safely assume they age normally.
I might have missed it, but does this address werecreatures and the disguise skill? Technically having a different subtype should ruire a disguise check for werefolk to pass as humans, yet to have a werewolf unseen among us is a well known trope.
Also, sucks to hear that a new discipline will not be a staple of this series, as I always felt that if there was one thing that disciplines were missing was a solid thematic background, issue that was tackled perfectly in both LotN and here. Would it be too much to ask for a tradition also, a pack themed one would be amazing.
I believe Milo v3 has the right of it. Werewolves are pretty much indistinguishable from humans in human form. Their shapechanger subtype does not actually change the way they look, so there'd be no need for a disguise check because you still look like yourself.
There will be a Martial Tradition as well as a style feat chain for Chimera Soul. They're being worked on, so keep an eye out for more updates as the playtest continues.
For Blade Breaking Hide, which weapon do you use to sunder the attackers weapon? It implies that the attack breaks on your skin, but skin does not have a damage die. Does it have to be a natural weapon or can I sunder with a battleaxe?
Primal Surge feels a little weak compared to Primal Fang. +2 to hit and damage to all attacks vs +initiation modifier to one attack.
Tiger’s Leap is a level 4 maneuver that gives pounce. Raging Hunter Pounce is a Level 2 primal fury maneuver that gives pounce. I feel that the natural weapon disciple should be better at pouncing than two-handed weapon disciple. Is the primal fury pounce slated for errata?
Should Thrash say 'melee reach' instead of 'adjacent'?
Stance of the Sea King gives grab and a bonus to CMB. Grab naturally gives a +4 bonus CMB for grapple. It that supposed to be in addition to the bonus that the stance gives?
For Blade Breaking Hide, which weapon do you use to sunder the attackers weapon? It implies that the attack breaks on your skin, but skin does not have a damage die. Does it have to be a natural weapon or can I sunder with a battleaxe?
Primal Surge feels a little weak compared to Primal Fang. +2 to hit and damage to all attacks vs +initiation modifier to one attack.
I'll work on Blade Breaking Hide to clean up the wording.
Primal Surge vs. Primal Fang has been mentioned before elsewhere. At this time they're both written the way they are specifically for the purpose of comparison. They scale differently, with one improving based on the number of attacks while the other scales off your Initiation Modifier. If you're making a single attack Primal Surge is generally the better option as it will deal more damage, while Primal Fang is better for full attacks.
Unleashed Dragon Stance makes me so happy :) I love effects that give unlimited breath weapons. Also, I edited my previous post a bunch of times, I probably should have just finished reading first :S
Tiger’s Leap is a level 4 maneuver that gives pounce. Raging Hunter Pounce is a Level 2 primal fury maneuver that gives pounce. I feel that the natural weapon disciple should be better at pouncing than two-handed weapon disciple. Is the primal fury pounce slated for errata?
I can't comment on what is or isn't slated for errata at this time. I can say that Primal Fury is a known problem child and not a good choice for a point of comparison with any other disciplines.
Should Thrash say 'melee reach' instead of 'adjacent'?
Thrash is adjacent specific on purpose for playtesting purposes. Specifically it needs to be compared to the similar Wide Swipe. The two maneuvers have similar functions but different specific text on how they work so that I can draw comparisons between them to find the best format for that "type" of maneuver.
Stance of the Sea King gives grab and a bonus to CMB. Grab naturally gives a +4 bonus CMB for grapple. It that supposed to be in addition to the bonus that the stance gives?
For now, yes. If it proves to be an issue later I'll change it.
Cross posting:
My initial Read brought these things to mind in no particular order:
2) I would add a time limit to how long can pass before Wolfsbane becomes ineffective in curing lycanthropy.
2. Wolfsbane has no time limit on its effectiveness for the lycanthrope 1st party template. The werewolf template is a possibility, though I’m not sure what timetable, if any, I’d want to put on it.
Tried chopping out the other question in the quote to make the post smaller. Anyway, this may be worth looking into, as it raises some interesting a relevent questions:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/belladonna
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/wolfsbane
Besides the belladonna wolfsbane thing, I've had additional questions and ideas!
6) Are you treating werewolf more like a disease or more like a curse?
6a) If the werewolf template is treated as a disease effect, then disregard. if it is more of a curse effect, then would gaining vampirism (Lords of the Night vampirism) cancel out or mesh with the werewolf template OR would having lycanthropy make you immune to vampirism? I've been watching the Originals ALOT lately and always liked Underworld, so hybrids are on my mind, lol.
7) werewolf poisons that are essentially wolfsbane and silver powder (if wolfsbane is used a 'cure' rather than a cure)
8) A feat, trait, or ability that advanced scent so that it allows you to smell your weaknesses as though they were strong scents
9) A prestige class that advances shapeshifting ability and allows you to have some benefits of werewolf at all times (like have the DR regardless of form).
10) Perhaps a TRUE silver weakness? Silver could cause fatigue in order to simulate an actual silver weakness.
I'm excited to announce that I'll be doing a livestream interview on Twitch this Tuesday (March 8th) at 8 PM EST. The channel is called Exploding Dice and you can also tweet in questions to @Askren during the show or post them on the channel itself.
Besides the belladonna wolfsbane thing, I've had additional questions and ideas!
6) Are you treating werewolf more like a disease or more like a curse?
6a) If the werewolf template is treated as a disease effect, then disregard. if it is more of a curse effect, then would gaining vampirism (Lords of the Night vampirism) cancel out or mesh with the werewolf template OR would having lycanthropy make you immune to vampirism? I've been watching the Originals ALOT lately and always liked Underworld, so hybrids are on my mind, lol.7) werewolf poisons that are essentially wolfsbane and silver powder (if wolfsbane is used a 'cure' rather than a cure)
8) A feat, trait, or ability that advanced scent so that it allows you to smell your weaknesses as though they were strong scents
9) A prestige class that advances shapeshifting ability and allows you to have some benefits of werewolf at all times (like have the DR regardless of form).
10) Perhaps a TRUE silver weakness? Silver could cause fatigue in order to simulate an actual silver weakness.
I apologize for being so late getting back to this, I've been having some trouble with Paizo's forums lately. Anyway:
6) Lycanthropy in Lords of the Wild is being treated more like a curse than a disease. There are currently no planned interactions between the Werewolf and Vampire Templates, that's honestly too much of a headache to create specific material for. Technically both should be applicable to a single creature, but it's not something that we plan on providing additional support for.
7) Some of these ended up in the Steelforge playtest, and will probably be brought over to this document as well. I definitely plan on adding werewolf items and werewolf hunting items in the near future.
8) Not a bad idea, we'll see.
9) Working on some more prestige classes at this time, keep your eyes peeled for more info.
10) I don't think this is likely. The Werewolf template is intended to be a player friendly option, and as such the weaknesses need to be kept relatively tame so they don't negatively impact the gameplay experience. Everyone has different ideas how to implement the silver weakness, but the important thing to remember is that it has to remain balanced for both sides of the GM's screen.
had any other thoughts of adding belladonna, perhaps in place of wolfsbane?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/belladonna
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/wolfsbane
had any other thoughts of adding belladonna, perhaps in place of wolfsbane?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/belladonna
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/wolfsbane
That is an amazing bit of oversight, considering the Lycanthrope Template specifies you need wolfsbane to cure lycanthropy and makes no mention of Belladonna at all.
No, I don't think belladonna will be replacing Wolfsbane since there's no mythological connection between Belladonna and Werewolves.
fair enough.
Good to see some were-playtest wildness. ;)
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Good to see some were-playtest wildness. ;)
It certainly is, and if you've got any feedback, we'd love to hear it!
So, to expand on my morphic equipment idea earlier, some things i thought up (wording could use work, I know):
Leaf Sickle
The +1 Sickle is seemingly ordinary until wielded by a creature capable of transforming into another form and possessing the shapeshifter subtype. When such a creature is in an alternate form the Leaf Sickle takes on the apearance of a sickle made of sharpened leaves (though it's material is unchanged for the purpose of hardness and hp) and any damage dealt to an adversary heals a plant creature within 10 feet for half of the damage dealt.
Armor of the Werewolf Lord
This +2 Mithral Breastplate, when equipped by a creature with the werewolf template (or the werewolf lycanthrope template), changes with them when they change into other forms. Additionally, the enhancement bonus from this armor is added to the wearer's DR against silver (along with its normal benefits).
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Hello again everyone, it's been a while. However, I come bearing a new present. If you scroll down to the bottom of our document, you'll find a new martial tradition: The Temple of the Formless Spirit, a group of shapeshifting ascetics with a secret goal. Enjoy!
I like it. Will we be getting some stats for Mute? I could almost see 2 versions of this: his normal state and the "I completed my goal!" state.
Unlikely. Mute is meant to be a figure like Whisper for the Quills or Rumor for the Cagebreakers. More a lore figure than someone you personally encounter. It's just beyond the scope of what we're writing here.
Any new developments here?
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Any new developments here?
Yes. Should have something new to add within the week, actually. It's been hectic lately so unfortunately had to push some stuff to the side.
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And I'm back with the promised updates:
- Added animal form size to the werewolf template
- Added Greater Werewolf and Formless Master prestige classes
- Werewolf requirement removed from Varsark
- Size Shift renamed to Magnitude Shift
- Text added to Rapid Shifting and Extra Shifting to clarify that it does not require that you be shifted
- Tail added to Deathsting Shift
- Chameleon Shift, Identity Shift, and Sensory Shift added
- Temporary natural weapons created by Chimera Soul maneuvers now do damage as normal for their size and type
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Finally got around to fixing the varsärk so that it's compatible with Skald. Sorry that took so long!
looking at Greater Werewolf's Life of the Beast, Fast Healing may be a better call than regeneration. Though it could be fine either way.
still looking through it, more feedback later.
Edit: *upgrading the fast healing that Feral Vitality
Does Fast Healing from multiple sources stack? I ask because between Feral Vitality and Overflowing Life, you could get a total of Fast Healing 3 for the cost of three feats (and requiring certain types/subtypes).
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Seven new feats and one new trait added to the document for you all, including the Chimera Soul Style feats.
any new news?
while i absolutely love the Moonlight Meditant, the "In Wolves' Clothing" ability seems to give a lot all at once at level 4:
8 temporary HP (more as you level) that you can continuously refill with successful attacks
+10 foot to all speeds
deflection bonus equal to Con mod (as long as you still have temp HP)
size boost (later levels this grows, but that isn't a big issue later)
also the size boost doesn't come with penalties (this is also fine)
also, would this archetype have access to feral heart blade skills (the ones that make sense anyway)?
6 months and no update wtf?
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Okay everyone, sorry for the long silence. A lot of life stuff came up and kept happening right when I meant to sit down and knock this all out. But I'm here with a new update.
Added the feats Pack Howl and Terror of the Hunt to support the Wild Huntmaster
Added a new ability to the wild huntmaster’s hunting pack
There were a lot of good points that the Wild Huntmaster was lacking in feats to take. So I added some, and then gave them a reason to take combat feats (the pack now shares your combat feats)
Rescaled Hunting Pack HP
New formula is 1/4 creator’s class level × twice creator’s Charisma bonus (if any) × the number of spaces occupied by the hunting pack. This should reduce the overall bloat at high levels, and make it a bit more durable for the first few levels of your career
Removed the ability score modifiers from Magnitude Shift
Changed the 5 feat, 2 round benefit of Strongclaw Shift
Toning back some of the damage potential through ability score stacking on shifting feats
Added long shift benefits to Deathsting Shift
Deathsting was kind of odd in that it only had 2 round shifts, so i figured why not allow for a monkey tail
And I added in a new feat, Dogpile, that follows up on Dirty Fighting to kick them while they're down.
@Air0r: we took a look at the Feral Heart blade skills, and decided against adding them to moonlight meditant
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Sorry for the lack of updates, lots of IRL drama and such.
With that, I am going to declare this playtest officially closed. As far as release, it's going to be split into two parts. The first will be the main book, which has currently been passed to editing. The second will be dedicated to Chimera Soul, and will be its own release through the DSP Patreon, similar to Fool's Errand, once we iron out some of the kinks present in the discipline and make sure it matches up to the design philosophy that is being applied to Path of War content going forward.
From my limited point of view, it sounds like it's really just a wolf-themed beast-shape spell effects to go along with what you'd normally get while raging. Seems to stack better with Skald and Bloodragers but is open for Barbarians to take. Some rage class features stack better with others though, I think? ;)