So my GM is prepping a home-brew campaign (likely set around a desert, but there'll be forests as well he says). He's asked us to make 15pt buy third level gestalt characters, and that we'll have a DMPC to help out our party of three. One player likes to play full martial characters and is doing something with bloodrager and/or barbarian I believe, and the other player likes to go full spell caster (typically gestalts oracle/sorcerer). The DMPC is likely to be a rogue type based on my experience with him, so I'm looking into what I should bring to this hypothetical group.
I was thinking of an assimar zen archer/evangelist cleric, fully wis based with some decent physical stats. Using point blank master to be a 'melee' archer, as he doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity unless he wants to, and if they miss they count as flat footed for sneak attack. The evangelist cleric would bring some buffs and spells, and with the lingering performance feat I could dump cha fairly low and still have bardic performance through the day. I like more complex characters to play, rather than simple beatstick so I think this is a good option but I wanted to hear your opinions. If you think of anything else please comment, thanks in advance!
9 times out of 10 if you have to ask what you should bring the right answer is an Evangelist Cleric so you definitely have the right idea here. I question the wisdom of letting the DMPC be the only skill monkey though, that sounds like it has the capacity of turning a lot of encounters into the GM just talking to himself.
Alright, evangelist cleric sounds good then, though I agree with you on the DMPC. I avoid DMPCs when GMing but he seems bent on using one so I'll work around it as best I can. Should I gestalt the evangelist with a skill monkey class to alleviate this? Candidates would include hunter, inquisitor, ranger, rogue, alchemist, and investigator.
Instead of a cleric you could go for a zen archer/inquisitor. You will have less spells but more special abilities. With the right inquisition you can also be the party face while still dumping CHA.
Adding bane to flurry is incredibly strong. Throw in a few buff spells and judgements and you will take down almost anything. The inquisitor also gives you more out of combat abilities than the cleric. Detect alignment, discern lies, track, and monster lore all are very useful.
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If the caster guy does play Oracle//Sorcerer he'll make a pretty good face, so the rogue doesn't have to do much talking.
Even without inquisitor, all characters get at least a base 4 skill points/level, so as long as the party doesn't tank Int they should be able to cover whatever skills they find interesting and the rest can be handled with minimal screen time. It could actually be a boon if that includes scouting, because the GM doesn't have to play out the scouting scene with a single PC. To participate in social scenes, the full martial guy should consider Intimidate and OP's character could get an excellent Sense Motive.
I do really like Zenquisitor if you're looking for more skill points, though it's not great at party support and if both your healers are spontaneous you'll want to be careful about condition removal (eg by investing in scrolls of spells like Remove Disease that might not be worth it to learn).
With only 15 point buy and only d8 HD after gestalt, I'd recommend avoiding melee if you can - you're likely to be relatively fragile. Of course, it's nice to have the option to enter melee.
Inquisitor would be good. You can take the Conversion Inquisition and be a great party face so the GM isn't talking to himself all the time.
What if I went Zenquisitor with bard variant multi-class? I lose out on feats, get 6th level casting instead of 9th and a reduced spell list, and don't get bardic performance until 7th level. On the other hand I do get bardic knowledge and the conversion inquisition to become a wis based skill monkey, and get plenty of bonus feats from being a zen archer. Thoughts?
Edit* Hmmm, I see your point Arachnofiend - evangelists are better the more bodies they have to buff, correct? Would evangelist / druid be better for a wis based buffer/summoner?
That definitely pushes you way out of the support role and into mostly being a DPR machine but if your caster buddy plans on making a Theurge type character then that wouldn't be too much of an issue.
Evangelist Cleric // Master Summoner would be a great combo. A bit MAD between WIS/CHA, but Aasimar have bonuses to both, and 15 PB can be made up somewhat by dumping STR and INT.
I wouldn't recommend a Master Summoner to someone playing with my worst enemy. It's one of the most disruptive builds in the game, and it's disruptive without doing anything unexpected.
It's not something I'd use in a large party, but it's not that bad if you have your summoned creatures' stats written down ahead of time.
Just found out that the GM wants to do 3d6 instead of point buy, I don't know my stats yet but how much does that affect character planning?
Just found out that the GM wants to do 3d6 instead of point buy, I don't know my stats yet but how much does that affect character planning?
It affects it greatly, because some classes need a good statline more than others. If you only end up with one good stat, play a caster. If you have no good stats, play a summoning-focused caster.
Yikes, yeah if they're doing 3d6 then you have no choice but to wait until after dice are rolled to figure out what kind of character you want. Some concepts will simply not be possible with some arrays.
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3d6 is very dicey, even for rolled stats. It's very likely you'll end up with more than one dump stat, and very possible that you'll have only one good stat. And it's not just less certain - you'll also probably end up with a lower overall point buy value. The iconic 3d6 array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, which has a point buy value of 3. And while 15 point buy, distributed evenly, gives you three 13s and three 12s, the average 3d6 roll is 10.5.
Like Arachnofiend, I'd recommend waiting for the stats to make a final decision.
Zenquisitor will probably be easier than Zen Archer//Cleric since you can dump both Int and Cha with fewer repercussions. However you'd still want the other four stats to be at least average, preferably above average. I'd want at least post-racial 13-14 Dex and Wis, 12 Con, 10 Str.
Ranger//Cleric or Ranger//Warpriest would give you a little more leeway as a divine archer since you've got d10 HD (so don't need as much Con) and you don't rely on your stats as much for AC. You'd probably do OK with a post-racial 14 Dex, 11-12 Wis, and 10+ Str and Con.
If you do only have one good stat you really should play a caster, pet class, or both, like the Druid//Cleric you mentioned previously. I'm assuming you'll be allowed to reroll if you have literally no good stats, but if not definitely go for the pet because you won't do much good on your own. Hunter//Cleric wouldn't be a bad idea, especially if you can scrape together Wis 11 for minimal spellcasting.
Note that racial modifiers can make a huge difference. If you play a Dual-Talent human or Garuda-Blooded Aasimar (+2 Dex +2 Wis) you can make my recommended stats for a Zenquisitor with just 12, 11+2, 11+2, and 10.
Wow, okay first off my computer isn't working so pardon the thumb typos from my phone. We did the stat generation and it did not end up being 3d6 six times, but rather 3d6 thirty six times. I rolled one 6, two 7s, two 8s, three 9s, nine 10s, six 11s, five 12s, two 13s, four 14s, one 15, and one 17. He told us that we were rolling for our next twelve characters (if we have that many) and to arrange our 36 numbers in a six by six grid any way we want to.
We choose one row or column from this grid for our character's stats, which become their stats in order. So if the row (or column) chosen reads 14, 10, 6, 11, 12, 10 that becomes my str, dex, con, int, wis, and cha respectively. He's hinted that it'll be a dungeon campaign (so burrow is better to get than flight for example), and that it'll be hardcore, so character death is a risk.
Furthermore, while our characters haven't fully been decided on yet, one player is now looking at bloodrager/paladin, and the other is looking at ninja/brawler. The GM has said that he will provide a DMPC to fill the party so I shouldn't worry about filling every hole. So far I've been looking at an empereal sorcerer gestalted with zen archer, though I'm open to suggestions. Do you have any advice for stats and/or classes?
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6 con uhhh...that sucks. Why don't you just play a synthesist/oracle and be a half orc for sacred tattoo and fates favored.
Lunar oracles come with their own animal companions :) Looks like the party could use someone with condition removal.
The eidolon suit(biped) starts with 16 str, 12 dex, 13 con. You don't need to be much of a caster, just do buffs, and put every ability increase into cha. With seeker archtype for oracle side, you could disable device too.
Alternatively, if you don't want an animal companion, you can do battle oracle for longbow proficiency.
Also - what are the other players stats like? If they're front lining with 6 con...its going to get rough.
It'll be funny having create water on a desert. That's one cantrip I never skip as a divine caster.
My last experiment on a gestalt character, even though optimization guides tell you to be half elf for more evolutions, I found half orc with sacred tattoo and fates favored better. The addition to saves are a lifesaver, and god, when you're trying to do scenarios alone, every bit of hp counts. Syn/pally is by far the most durable gestalt I've ever made, but as I've said in previous posts, I don't recommend paladins to other players - unless both GM and player can see things eye to eye on how a paladin should behave.
Yes, play a Synthesist Summoner. REALLY make your GM regret those stat rules.
I am only half kidding.
I've talked with him about what is allowed, and so far he's banned summoners (vanilla, synthesist, master, unchained), but is otherwise open to any paizo published content. For races it's the same, except races with more race points than the aasimar (15+) probably won't be allowed. I've tried to evenly distribute the rolls so later characters aren't screwed over and came up with this grid:
7, 12, 10, 15, 8, 13
8, 11, 17, 9, 10, 10
14, 7, 11, 10, 12, 14
12, 12, 9, 10, 10, 11
13, 12, 6, 11, 14, 9
14, 10, 11, 11, 10, 10
It can still be changed if you think of something better, and can be read from any direction, not just from top to bottom or from left to right. For example I was thinking of using the third column, read from the bottom for: 11 str, 6 dex, 9 con, 11 int, 17 wis, and 10 cha for a zen archer / inquisitor. What do you guys think?
Edit: the others rolled slightly better than I did, and are likely to consolidate all of their good stats onto one line
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I would take 7,8, 14, 12, 13, 14 line, get scion of war, use scion of humanity on a standard aaaimar and we can have a decent shaman/sorcerer(empyreal) in the works. Trade out skilled and sla for crusading magic.
You don't need str, your armor is mage armor.
Be a life shaman so your familiar gets fast healing, then make a mauler out of it.
Instead of using shaman, you can use any wis based class, I.e cleric, druid.
If you go cleric(mind the skill points, though), do feather domain, evangelist. Yay bard song.
I didn't recommend oracle/sorc route, as lack of spells known. Besides shaman has hexes which you can fiddle around with all day. You'll never need to use a weapon.
If you want to do sorcerer oracle, you can go for heavens oracle, sylvan sorcerer, human, with undersized mount at 3. A little ant haul on your roc companion and you can run around throwing souped up coloursprays. I don't think your GM is going to be that nice to give you stuff susceptible to colourspray, though :p
If you want a zen archer/inquisitor, I would use 8, 10, 12, 10, 14, 10 statline on a garuda blooded aasimar. The -1 str hurts, but you need to be able to qualify for deadly aim by having 13 dex min., or 10, 12, 12, 7, 11, 12 on garuda aasimar.
The verticals make for a better stat spread for con.
If horizontals can be used, do 13, 12, 6, 11, 14, 9, as a dwarf, to alleviate the con penalty. Zen archers don't need phenomenal dex, but need minimum of 13 to qualify for deadly aim which is like power attack for ranged classes.
Wow, quite detailed, thanks Mort! To clarify the stats can still be changed if you like, & can be read from top to bottom, bottom to top, left to right, and right to left. Let me know if you think of anything else - thanks again!
Actually, quick question, do you think it's worth it to switch the 13 & 14 in the first column? I'm thinking of doing the shaman/sorcerer you mentioned and thought that it would be better to have more wis than cha (if going empyreal sorcerer).
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You could. I wouldn't worry too much about it, though. Once you get past 4 your fcb is going to be torn between getting more spells known on sorc, or poaching from cleric list. I did a little study on what cleric spells I'd have liked to poach as a shaman:
Lv 1
Shield of faith
Divine favor (only if your familiar is going mauler)
Lv 2:
Burst of radiance
Silence
Lv 3:
Remove disease
Lv 4:
Death ward
Freedom of movement
Air walk
Spell immunity
Divine power(if you have a mauler familiar)
Lv 5:
Communal Airwalk
Lv 6:
Blade barrier
Lv 7:
Holy word
Lv 8:
Spell Immunity, Greater
Holy aura
Since you have an arcane half, you can skip stuff like blessing of fervor(use haste instead), word of recall(you can get greater teleport), invisibility purge (just use glitterdust) and liberating command is on sorcerer spell list. Burst of radiance and silence are really good picks out of the cleric list.
Alright, I've tried talking to my GM a bit as he's working on home-brew, there's still some stuff in the air but I've made up a character in line with some assumptions. In previous games that we've played (and that I've GM'ed) players have been allowed to take as many drawbacks as they like, including major drawbacks (which can be exchanged for feats). Additionally the original "Heirloom Weapon" trait is in play, not the nerfed one. Finally background skills are in play, as well as the crafting rules from unchained.
Str 7, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 15 (Including the standard aasimar racial stat bonuses)
HP 20 (I rolled low, he's going to let me roll again)
LN Life Shaman 3 / Wild-blooded Empyreal Sorcerer 3 of Irori
86 years old, 6'2" & 150lbs with silver hair and jade eyes
20ft speed both in & out of armour (base 30ft, -10ft one leg major drawback)
Initiative: +11 (2 cha, 4 familiar, 4 improved initiative, 1 survivor trait)
AC 11 (1 Haramaki, 1 Armoured Kilt, -1 dex)
Touch AC 9
Flat-Footed AC 12
Fort 4 (1 base, 2 con, 1 cloak of resistance)
Ref 4 (1 base, -1 dex, 1 cloak of resistance, 1 deft dodger trait, 2 lightning reflexes feat)
Will 7 (3 base, 3 wis, 1 cloak of resistance)
BAB 2
SR 8 (vs evil spells & spells from evil outsiders)
CMB 0 (2 BAB, -2 str)
CMD 8 (2 BAB, -2 str, -1 dex, -1 nonathletic major drawback)
Weapons:
Heavenly Fire +1 (x2)/1d4+1, 30ft & 5/day
Torch +0 (x2)/1d3-2 + 1 fire
Gauntlet +0 (x2)/1d3-2
Masterwork Scythe +2 (x4)/2d4-2
Blowgun +1 (x2)/1d2, 20ft
Channel Positive Energy 2d6, DC 13, 4/day
Skills (that are affected beyond the ability modifier)
Climb -4 (-2 str, -2 nonathletic major drawback)
Craft Alchemy 7 (1 int, 3 ranks, 3 class skill)
Diplomacy 4 (2 cha, 2 aasimar)
Handle Animal 8 (2 cha, 3 ranks, 3 class skill, 2 harness, -2 animal animosity major drawback)
Heal 9 (3 wis, 1 rank, 3 class skill, 2 bloodline arcana)
Knowledge Religion 7 (1 int, 1 rank, 3 class skill, 2 bloodline arcana)
Perception 14 (3 wis, 3 ranks, 3 class skill, 1 balloon headed trait, 2 aasimar, 2 alertness feat)
Ride -2 (-1 dex, 1 rank, -2 animal animosity major drawback, 2 military saddle, -5 unsuitable mount, 3 class skill)
Sense Motive 12 (3 wis, 3 ranks, 3 class skill, 1 survivor trait
Spellcraft 7 (1 int, 3 ranks, 3 class skill)
Stealth 10 (3 wis, 3 ranks, 3 class skill, 1 wisdom in the flesh trait)
Swim -4 (-2 str, -2 nonathletic major drawback)
Languages: Common, Draconic
Major Drawbacks: Clumsy, Slow Runner, Fear of Falling, One Leg, Nonathletic, Land Legs, Animal Animosity, Spell Vulnerability: Abjuration/Divination/Transmutation
Drawbacks: Warded Against Nature, Annoying, Creepy, Cringer, Miserly, Umbral Unmasking
Traits: Survivor, Wisdom in the Flesh (stealth), Adopted (goblins), Balloon Headed, deft dodger, exalted of the society, hedge magician, heirloom weapon
Feats: Eschew Materials, Alertness, Accursed Hex, Amplified Hex, Extra Hex (x2), Scribe Scroll, Craft Wonderous Item, Improved Initiative, Noble Scion: Scion of War, Lightning Reflexes, Fey Foundling, Combat Casting, Toughness
Sorcerer Spells Known:
Cantrips: Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Message, Acid Splash
1st: Bless, Enlarge Person, Silent Image, Grease
Cleric Spells Added to the Shaman List (FCB):
Shield of Faith, Divine Favour, Burst of Radiance
Typical Shaman Spells Prepared:
Orisons:
Create H2O, Light, Stabilize, Guidance
1st: Shield of Faith, Divine Favour, Obscuring Mist, Detect Undead
2nd Burst of Radiance, Lesser Restoration, Fog Cloud
Equipment:
On person:
Blowgun
Darts (10)
Pearls of Power 1 (2)
String (100ft)
Flint & Steel
Acid Flask
Candles (23)
Wooden Holy Symbol (10)
Cloak of Resistance +1
Masterwork Scythe
Scrolls of:
Swift Girding
Feather Fall
Ant Haul
Illusion of Calm (2)
Calm Animals
Burning Hands (3)
Cheetah’s Sprint
Comprehend Languages
Gentle Breeze
Monkey Fish
On Swiftscale:
Bedroll
Belt Pouch
Mess Kit
Soap (50 uses)
Torches (9)
Trail Rations (5)
Waterskin
Hemp Rope (50ft)
Harness
Muleback Cords
Training Kit, Carnivore
Healer’s Kit
Surgeon’s Kit
Exotic Military Saddle
Carnivore Feed (2)
Full Plate barding
Swift scale:
Compsognathus Mauler Familiar
Tricks Known: Attack (x2), Aid, Come, Defend, Detect, Down, Exclusive, Fetch, Flank, Get Help, Guard, Heel, Serve, Sneak, Stay, Track, Watch
Let me know what you think, if I should change anything or leave it as is
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Looks like you tried to optimize to the point of ludicrous but are completely clueless on how to do so.
There's a whole lot of problems. For example shaman poaching of cleric list is only for spells 1 lv below what you can cast. So you would only get to poach 1 lv 1 spell from cleric list, because you can cast lv 2 spells as a lv 3 shaman. It takes the place of your favored class bonus.
Next - spell choice for sorcerer-screw silent image, get mage armor instead. You may want to take colourspray instead of grease.
All those traits and drawbacks - what are you trying to do with it?
Heirloom weapon -useless to you, you have no str to fool around with weapons.
Wisdom in flesh - what for, when an invisibility spell gives 20 to stealth? If the group is sending a caster to scout, they have a serious problem.
Exalted of the society is a cleric only trait and you're a shaman - you don't qualify.
Take seeker from ultimate campaign if you want perception as a class skill - Adopted by goblins doesn't make sense backstory wise as goblins (present company excluded - you guys know who you are) are pryomanical psychopaths who would rather throw an aasimar infant into the cookpot.
Feat comments:
Amplified hex - as only caster you have no spells to waste to buff hexes
Extra hex - shamans can only take hexes from their spirit - and life spirit has crappy hexes
LINK
Lightning reflexes - Failed fort and will saves kill you, not failed reflexes saves. The guys in front should have found the pit before you did.
Skills comments:
You don't need heal, that's what stabilize is for.
You should max spellcraft if you're doing item crafting.
You don't need stealth, that's what invisibility spell is for.
Equipment:
Get a wand of CLW and one less pearl of power. If you're going mauler and getting your familiar to fight, please give him mw studded leather armor.
Scrolls:
Burning hands as a scroll does a measly 1d4(minimum caster level), with a DC 11 reflex save. Forget it.
Swift Girdling - why bother with mage armor. You can sleep in light armor without any penalty.
Illusion of calm - you should know how to position yourself better
Featherfall - no use, if you/someone else is falling you don't have time to draw that scroll.
Cheetah sprint - what for - you need a move action to pull it out, so you can't charge/run on the same turn.
Calm animals - you don't want to scroll anything with a save, unless it has some secondary effects without (i.e glitterdust for revealing invisible creatures)
If you want to keep scrolls, keep the following:
Grease
Protection from evil
See invisibility
Remove fear (a bit of a stretch)
Remove paralysis
Aasimar Life Oracle / Empyreal Sorcerer 3
Str 7, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 16
Traits:
Reactionary, Seeker
Feats:
Lv 1: Scion of War
Lv 2 hex: Witch hex (Slumber)
Lv 3: Craft Wondrous Items
Sorcerer Spells Known:
Cantrips: Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Message, Acid Splash
1st: Bless, Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Colourspray
Cleric Spells Added to the Shaman List (FCB):
Divine Favour
Typical Shaman Spells Prepared:
Orisons:
Create H2O, Light, Stabilize, Guidance
1st: Magic Weapon (Call me paranoid), Burning hands (in case of swarm problems) x 2, Detect Undead
2nd: Summon natures ally (Earth elementals Rock), Scare, Lesser Restoration