Growing big inside other creature


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

Druid tried to get an information and Wild Shaped into the mouse. Mouse was Perception-spotted by local medium-size monster and Swallow Whole (as per special ability). Druid wants to use his wild shape ability to transform himself into huge creature and tear the medium-size moster from inside out.

Is it valid tactic?

Grand Lodge

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Are we seriously not doing "phrasing"?

The Exchange

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It's a tactic legal within the rules (Wild Shape isn't even subject to Concentration checks as far as I can tell), but not a particularly smart move. When you're in an airless location, "grow larger than any of the exits to the area" is not generally a good tactic... particularly since the druid's likely to take as much crushing damage as the creature he's expanding inside. Die of that, or suffocate inside a dead creature that didn't "tear open", and the other players will laugh. With abandon. Cruelly. For days.


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I know of no rules for this one way or another.

So I would take guidance from Enlarge Person. You either burst out, or you stop growing when you fill the space.

What does that mean for wildshape? I would assume that in growing, you can try to "cut your way out" (not implying you're using a slashing weapon, but rather, your growth IS your slashing weapon) using your best attack - as you would usually do when swallowed whole. I didn't explain that well. If you did NOT wildshape and got swallowed whole, you would be allowed to do some damage to cut your way out, so I would allow you to do THAT same damage. If it's enough to cut yourself out, then you "burst" the enemy and transform to your normal shape just fine.

If not, you remains small enough to fit into its stomach, and since there are no rules for what a half-mouse-half-druid looks like, I would keep it simple and say you're still a mouse. Try again next round.

Clearly I made all that up, but it gives me a rule that can be used and derives that from some existing precedent (Enlarge Person). It gives the transformed character some dice to roll and a chance to succeed or fail, and gives the enemy a chance to survive or die based on how tough it really is, all while using the existing Swallow Whole rules.

Works well enough for me, off the top of my head anyway.


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EvilTwinSkippy wrote:
Are we seriously not doing "phrasing"?

I was going to say. I don't think that says good things about me.


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But seriously, I would take a lighter approach. It's not like this is an easily abused tactic. Probably won't come up more than once or twice in a campaign. If deciding on the fly, I'd just have the monster make a save or die. You would, however, automatically take half of their remaining hit points (prior to explosion) in crushing damage. If they make the save, you still take the damage and your wild shape fails.

The Exchange

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DM_Blake wrote:
...there are no rules for what a half-mouse-half-druid looks like,...

Unlike a half-mouse-half-sorcerer - if you've seen Fantasia you know what that looks like. boomp-DOOP-boompa-da-DOOP-da-BOOMP-da-dooba-dee...

Sczarni

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The monster would spit him out or his growth would stop. I feel that I'v read somewhere that you cannot reach larger size then the space available to you, but I can't remember anymore.

Adam


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EvilTwinSkippy wrote:
Are we seriously not doing "phrasing"?

Either way i think my alchemist who has access to enlarge person spells has just stumbled onto a gold mine.

Silver Crusade

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Enlarge person wrote:
If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it—the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.

Enlarge person (but not the beast shape or wild shape) contains a description, that prevents you to grow larger than available space.


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The rule vagueness was the exact reason why I decided against having a Frog animal companion and access to Enlarge Person (which I somehow managed to be able to stick to my companion). Don't want my poor frog exploding when Enlarge Person runs out with a combatant still in his stomach. >_>


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You have left the rules as written and need to adjudicate.

I'd do it as a hit, or possibly a crit for max damage that expels the druid from the mouth. The game is VERY against "your head explode" options.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Tiaburn wrote:
Is it valid tactic?

No

There is no rule that allows that to work.

In general, you can't use spells and effects not as intended for beneficial effects. For example like summoning walls to fall on people, etc.

Grand Lodge

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So, to those who say you can't do that, I ask this:

What happens in this situation if instead of the Druid using Wildshape to become something bigger instead has Wildshape wear off or get dispelled somehow? There is no longer any magic to keep the Druid the size of a Mouse, it MUST become it's original shape and size again. If that is the same size or bigger then the creature that swallowed it, never mind the size of it's stomach, then they aren't going to be contained anymore.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Drake Brimstone wrote:
same size or bigger then the creature that swallowed it, never mind the size of it's stomach, then they aren't going to be contained anymore.

That is when the GM figures out what happens. I'd leave you as a mouse, as a GM.


Some are indicating that they would not allow this to work as Enlarge Person prevents you from reaching a size larger than the space available. I disagree with this due to the false equivalency. If you were using magic to increase your size then I would agree. In this case you are ending magic which allows you to remain small. Growth would occur (possibly to your detriment) as the magic ends. If the creature has a listed amount of damage for a swallowed individual to cut their way out, I would apply exactly that amount to both the Druid and the creature and move on from there with an expelled Druid. If this is enough to kill either/both creature(s), so be it.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Seppuku wrote:
If the creature has a listed amount of damage for a swallowed individual to cut their way out, I would apply exactly that amount to both the Druid and the creature and move on from there with an expelled Druid.

I'd also support that ruling.


Tiaburn wrote:
Enlarge person wrote:
If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it—the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.
Enlarge person (but not the beast shape or wild shape) contains a description, that prevents you to grow larger than available space.

What about a reduce person that wears off. ;)

Liberty's Edge

(looked at thread)

(is surprised nobody mentioned the Assplodomancer build yet)


The rules do not cover this, ask your GM.


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I'll just leave this here.

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