It's a supernatural ability, so works on incorporeal.
What may be questionable is whether it would do 100% or 50% damage. But by strict RAW, I would say it does 100%, and I imagine the RAI is also 100%.
I never noticed before, but only magic weapons and spells explicitly deal half damage to incorporeal. So technically, supernatural and spell like abilities do full damage. I don't think that's supposed to be the way it works though.
Melkiador has the right of it, but I disagree on the RAI.
Incorporeal creatures can be affected by Su abilities like Lay on Hands (LOH) so yes, a paladin can use it against an incorporeal creature.
Spells and magic weapons from corporeal attacks, except Channel Energy, do only half damage to incorporeal creatures. Channel Energy is the only exception to this. LOH is not channeling energy. Those are two separate things, even though a paladin can do both of them (separately), so LOH does not get this special exception. However, LOH is not a spell or a magic weapon. It's a Su ability which is not explicitly mentioned as doing half damage. Therefore, the RAW says it does damage and does not say it does half damage, ergo, it does full damage.
Here is whee Melkiador and I seem to disagree:
Channel Energy is also a Su ability, not a spell or a magic weapon, and yet it is mentioned as being an exception to the half damage rule which supposedly only applies to spells and magic weapons. Why did they mention that the Su Channel Energy does full damage when, by RAW, it wasn't restricted to half damage anyway?
I believe it's because they basically meant to say "Spells and magic weapons and other magical attacks" deal half damage, except Channel Energy. I think that's the RAI and I think the fact that they excluded Channel Energy even though it was not included in the first place is evidence that the devs were thinking that it (and any other Su ability) was included in the half damage clause.
Of course, I'm just guessing at RAI at this point. By RAW, LOH does full damage because it is not a spell or magic weapon, but I'd suggest the RAI is for it to do half damage.
Aren't we talking about a 50% miss chance?
Aren't we talking about a 50% miss chance?
Now there's a blast from the past...
(my point being that the 50% miss chance was replaced in 2009 with a 50% damage reduction to make the battles less swingy, less all-or-nothing-based-on-a-roll)
The RAI is tricky because I agree that it probably meant to include damage from all magical sources. But also lay on hands is so close to channel that there may have been RAI for it to also do full damage. If one major thing was left out, you then have to assume that other major things may have been left out.
By RAW, LOH does full damage because it is not a spell or magic weapon, but I'd suggest the RAI is for it to do half damage.
I agree that, RAW, all supernatural attacks do full damage. Supernatural abilities are explicitly mentioned as one of the attacks that can hurt incorporeal creatures, and not listed among those that do half-damage.
It feels like an oversight to me too, and I would think that RAI would be for supernatural abilities to only inflict damage as well. However, the current wording is pretty clear.
I never noticed before, but only magic weapons and spells explicitly deal half damage to incorporeal. So technically, supernatural and spell like abilities do full damage. I don't think that's supposed to be the way it works though.
I am pretty sure SLAs fall into the bucket with spells there.
"In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell."
I am pretty sure SLAs fall into the bucket with spells there.
"In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell."
Agreed. Except where stated otherwise, always treat a spell-like ability under the rules provided for handling spells.
Agreed. Except where stated otherwise, always treat a spell-like ability under the rules provided for handling spells.I am pretty sure SLAs fall into the bucket with spells there.
"In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell."
Except every FAQ on the matter keeps saying that spell like abilities are not spells. And the rules for incorporeal do explicitly reference both spells and spell like abilities in an earlier section. This would imply that they are treated as being different for this ability.
Except every FAQ on the matter keeps saying that spell like abilities are not spells. And the rules for incorporeal do explicitly reference both spells and spell like abilities in a separate section. This would imply that they are treated differently for this ability.Agreed. Except where stated otherwise, always treat a spell-like ability under the rules provided for handling spells.I am pretty sure SLAs fall into the bucket with spells there.
"In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell."
What you're suggesting though is "fireball does half damage when it's a spell and full damage when it's a spell-like ability."
FAQs have carved out some exceptions, like using SLAs to qualify for spellcasting feats, etc., but I don't think that tendency is a reason to conclude that the line I quoted originally is meaningless.
Judging by previous FAQs, it is likely that the "all other ways" sentence is taken to merely mean that the sla uses the spell text of a spell it is based on.
To revisit a previous point, SLAs function as spells, but dealing half damage isn't a function of the spell. Rather, dealing half damage is a function of the incorporeal ability, which "targets" spells and SLAs differently.
If the paladin is half touching the ghost, he is doing half healing damage.
This incorporeal creatures take half damage instead of being hit half the time, makes no sense. It's like Schrodinger's cat coming out of the box half dead. It can't be both!
The idea of half damage seems to be that your attack hits, but the target is only partially effected, because it is only partially there. A miss chance would imply that the creature is randomly there or not there to take damage.
The paladin still has to touch the creature and nothing about SU's says it gets to do that. However I do think the paladin would be allowed to touch the creature if the PDT weighed in.
The paladin still has to touch the creature and nothing about SU's says it gets to do that. However I do think the paladin would be allowed to touch the creature if the PDT weighed in.
There's nothing about incorporeal that says they cannot be hit with a touch attack. They're specifically immune to certain attacks, but touch attacks is not listed as one of them.
The only time a miss chance factors in is when the incorporeal creature also has concealment.
Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature's Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
An incorporeal creature's attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn't wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.
Format: incorporeal; Location: Defensive Abilities.
Incorporeal undead take full damage from positive energy.
There is an FAQ that says that Lay on Hands uses positive energy.
Therefore an incorporeal undead takes full damage from Lay on Hands.But that really wasn't my question. My question is whether I can actually hit that incorporeal undead thing with my Lay on Hands ability. I am inclined to think I can. I could cast Cure Light Wounds and touch the thing. I could also use a wand of Cure Light Wounds.
They take full damage from Channel Energy, but the Incorporeal entry doesn't say anything about taking full damage from other forms of positive energy, so CLW, for example, would still only do 50% damage.
It says they take full damage from channel energy, not positive energy. Not all positive energy effects are equivalent to channel energy. Lay on hands is not channel energy. Cure X wounds isn't either. I agree that both can hit them, but they do half damage.
If holy water works, all "physical" positive energy attacks probably should. That's definitely RAI, anyways. Holy water is about as pure "positive energy" as it gets, and it explicitly damages incorporeal undead.
Unless you seriously want to argue that the water has the ghost touch property. Water is OP. Nerf plox.
But then, the text never says that incorporeal ever takes half damage from supernatural or spell-like sources. If you assume some text is missing, then you have to assume that other text is missing.
Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy).The middle phrase tells you what happens when anything from a corporeal source is able to effect an incorporeal creature: if it can harm them at all, it only does half damage, no matter what sort of ability it is.
I fully agree with Avoron here. If it comes from a "corporeal source" it deals half damage. The sole exception is channel energy. I feel the intent with this is to keep clerics classic role of being good against the undead.
As always a spell (like ghost touch), ability (like a Mother of Oblivion's tentacles I believe), or enchantment (like ghost touch weapons) could also be exempt if explicitly stated in its description. This is despite being from a corporeal source.
I think this is another instance where we old school 3.5 gamers have rules ingrained in our heads, like positive energy does full damage or 50% miss chance.
Using a cause light wounds spell to heal a ghost only heals half damage, minimum 1 of course.
Can a ghost ever turn off incorporeal?