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Page 12, 19
You say that, but it doesn't seem to be there.
Page 12 does describes the explore, report, and cooperate, but it doesn't put any real rules on the PC's behavior. I mean, I'm supposed to explore, make accounts of my explorations, and to allow others' their views unless I offer a helping hand. They are specific that pathfinder agents are under no moral obligations. It doesn't even specific any obligation to offer the helping hands. Quite honestly, PFS strikes me as a rather shady organization...
Page 19 describes the PVP issue, but not as in-character concept, but as an out of character concept. Specifically, they address PVP as something for PFSO, as it doesn't seem to be a trait of the normal PFS setting.
I haven't found any mention of something my PC has signed, or a set of specific rules he's suppose to adhere. It does suggest additional resources in other books. I suppose I could peak at those.
Developer
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Page 19 describes the PVP issue, but not as in-character concept, but as an out of character concept. Specifically, they address PVP as something for PFSO, as it doesn't seem to be a trait of the normal PFS setting.
I haven't found any mention of something my PC has signed, or a set of specific rules he's suppose to adhere. It does suggest additional resources in other books. I suppose I could peak at those.
Even if you feel that attacking another PC is in character for you PC at that moment, just figure out some other way for your character to express herself.
I recognize that the above quote doesn't fully explain in-character why you shouldn't thwack your teammates. In part, that is a legacy of earlier seasons when one of two books (Seekers of Secrets and Pathfinder Society Field Guide) were part of the Core Assumption, which is to say books that it was assumed players would have access to when playing the game. They have both sold out of print copies since, but the PDFs are available on this site. Both explain in more detail what the Society is about, how Pathfinders are expected to behave, and some other fine traditions that I cannot adequately convey from a tablet computer at this hour. In essence, Pathfinders are inducted after three years of formal training, after which they basically swear an oath to uphold the Society's principles—best summarized by "Explore, Report, Cooperate." Pathfinders don't steal from each other, be it data, dig sites, or material goods. Pathfinders respect each other as much as their sometimes clashing personalities allow. Pathfinders do not kill each other except in the most extraordinary cases of self-defense. These are pretty common rules in any guild, including thieves guilds and assassin co-ops.
And that boils down to not wantonly killing anything that pings as chaotic, even if your character reveres a lawful deity. What is the in-character reason? The in-world Society would kick your character out because he's a threat to his fellows. Because he would have violated his oath to the Society, even his deity might have stern words for him, depending on the severity of the action.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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With all the "no he said that I said that you said that..." I'm having a tough time keeping track of the narrative.
It's really simple. Blasting with fire or law is all the same; it's not okay to blast teammates without their informed consent.
"But it's what my character would do" is never a valid argument to behave badly. You're in control of your character, not the other way around. Find a reason why your character would do something else.
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How to cope when a melee player is always stepping in your way, is another matter. Sadly for you, melee types are just the norm in combat tactics. Their job is to stop enemies from getting to the people in the back of the party by keeping enemies tied up in melee. This is an important job. They can't step aside and let enemies through just because you'd like a clean firing line.
Of course a good melee player will be mindful of his teammates and try as hard as he can to give archers clean firing lines and not end up (all flanked like) in the middle of the enemy's fireball formation. But sometimes it can't be helped. If a combat is taking place in a 15x15 room, you're just out of luck. If the barbarian has a chance to slip through enemy lines and get to their nasty wizard, then that may also be worth it; your lawball isn't likely to drop him and he needs to stop tossing feebleminds.
People need to actually learn the finer points of good battlefield positioning and efficient movement with respect to cover and threat zones. People aren't born already knowing these things. So if it's due to ignorance, gently try to teach them. But don't expect instant perfect results and try not to make people feel like you're telling them how to play the game; nobody likes that.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Here's how it should go:
"I'd love to blast that swarm for you, but I can't do it without also hitting you."
A) "No way, I've seen your DCs, that would probably kill me. I'll take my chances with the swarm."
B) "Do it, if you don't burn it this thing will eat me alive."
C) "If you delay for a second I can step where you won't hit me."
Not:
"I'm gonna blast him with my lawball."
"Dude, you're gonna hit me too."
"Well, you should've been Lawful."
"As a barbarian? Are you kidding me?"
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The Lawful alignments are as opposed to chaotic alignments as good alignments are opposed to evil ones.
I vehemently disagree with this. In canon, the various Good gods and their followers actually get along fairly well in general, the only "kill on sight" reactions occur between good and evil.
More importantly, in play in almost every campaign out there (most definitely including PFS) the War of Good vs Evil is far, far more important than the philosophical difference between Law and Chaos.
There is a reason that the paladin gets Smite Evil and not Smite Chaos
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The Lawful alignments are as opposed to chaotic alignments as good alignments are opposed to evil ones.
I vehemently disagree with this. In canon, the various Good gods and their followers actually get along fairly well in general, the only "kill on sight" reactions occur between good and evil.
More importantly, in play in almost every campaign out there (most definitely including PFS) the War of Good vs Evil is far, far more important than the philosophical difference between Law and Chaos.
There is a reason that the paladin gets Smite Evil and not Smite Chaos
The War between Demons and Devils = "Kill on sight" ... there's a reason Hellknights get Smite Chaos and not Smite Good...
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The essence of the no PvP rule is that we must not kill another PC. There may be many situations where I have little choice but to include an ally within a spell effect based on the situation facing us and the PvP rule shouldn't prevent that if it wont lead to that ally's death.
Locally, we have a hard rule. It's a combination of the "don't be a jerk," and "no PVP" rules.
"No PVP without player permission". You wanna fire ball the swarm with the other PC in it you need their permission. Doesn't matter if YOU think its their best chance to live or even if you're clearly right.
With reasonable players it works wonderfully. I don't think that I have ever seen a player say no when it is clearly the right tactical decision. More importantly, it means that the question is only asked when it is reasonable, the player has already considered and rejected alternatives
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What is kind of neat during this discussion is a recollection I had of a WBG I'd played (can't remember if was Too! or Free!) and Poog was a freaking tactical genius with his placements of AoE.
C'mon, if goblins (who have no reason to get along all the time) can do it, members of the Society can, right?
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What is kind of neat during this discussion is a recollection I had of a WBG I'd played (can't remember if was Too! or Free!) and Poog was a freaking tactical genius with his placements of AoE.
C'mon, if goblins (who have no reason to get along all the time) can do it, members of the Society can, right?
wait - you mean Poog was able to place the AoE where he got all the Longshanks and the other Goblins too?
;)
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I'm not looking for an excuse to attack allies, it's the opposite. I'm trying to find a way to meld the lawful alignment so it fits within the PFS setting without metagaming. I want to be able to play a lawful character that fits in PFS without creating issues. That is the point of the thread.In particular, I like the Law Domain, which features this particular Order's Wrath at 4th level.
The basic answer is : create flexible characters who do not think people who disagree with them are so wrong that you can attack them. Create a character who embraces the fact that they MUST work with people they disagree with on a regular basis. Don't use alignment as a straight jacket.
The particular answer you already have : you can NOT use Orders Wrath to attack your allies except, perhaps, in some very exceptional circumstances. Plan your character knowing that.
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The essence of the no PvP rule is that we must not kill another PC. There may be many situations where I have little choice but to include an ally within a spell effect based on the situation facing us and the PvP rule shouldn't prevent that if it wont lead to that ally's death.
Locally, we have a hard rule. It's a combination of the "don't be a jerk," and "no PVP" rules.
"No PVP without player permission". You wanna fire ball the swarm with the other PC in it you need their permission. Doesn't matter if YOU think its their best chance to live or even if you're clearly right.
With reasonable players it works wonderfully. I don't think that I have ever seen a player say no when it is clearly the right tactical decision. More importantly, it means that the question is only asked when it is reasonable, the player has already considered and rejected alternatives
heck, just place the AoE where it clips the swarm and not the PC in it. (there are 3 other squares - unless the PC is enlarged).
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As a bit of roleplaying advice in general that goes doubly for pathfinder society do not decide what one action your character WOULD do in any given situation. Figure out a list of what your character MIGHT do and off of that list pick something that lets you work with the party.
Blast them WITH THE POWER OF ORDER!
Aim THE POWER OF ORDER a bit to the left so you don't daze your barbarian
Show the spirit of cooperation by buffing your allies instead
Take orders from another party member as to the overall strategy. (A mediocre plan everyone is following is better than a great plan no one is following)
Cast a buff spell instead
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I think you may have a mix up in what I'm addressing. I'm not asking permission to blast my allies. I'm asking how to roleplay a PFS legal lawful alignment character that has spells which only harm "bad guys."
The Lawful alignments are as opposed to chaotic alignments as good alignments are opposed to evil ones. Pretending this isn't case seems to be your main issue here.
And herein lies the problem. If you think that any lawful PC would automatically assume that any non-lawful creature is a "bad guy", then you clearly don't understand the alignment system.
Yes, there are lawful extremists who think chaos always needs to be destroyed, as noted by Percy Footman, above. Hellknights and devils think that way. They're the exception, not the rule.
As Paul Jackson pointed out, in most cases, including most fiction throughout history, and most of the Pathfinder campaign setting, law vs chaos is a minor philosophical disagreement that rarely leads to violence. If you read any of the Pathfinder books that describe the relationships between the gods, you'll see that the good gods mostly get along, with some of the lawful good and chaotic good deities even being friends.
As specific examples, I have two paladins in PFS, both in the Silver Crusade. One thinks that being honorable and good is the only reasonable way to conduct oneself, and tries to be an example for other Pathfinders and encourage them to be more lawful and more good if they aren't. But that encouragement isn't in the form of preventing the other PCs from doing things (unless they're trying to do something very blatantly evil). It just takes the form of chastising them for dishonorable behavior.
The other is more laid back about such things, and would look on allies using chaotic methods with a "Well, that's not what I would do, but as long as you're helping the greater good, I don't have a problem with it". Two very different personalties, but both perfectly normal ways of handling a lawful good alignment, without falling into "lawful stupid" territory.
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I posted this a while ago in a different thread on PvP. Since John and Andrew have both posted here, I'll quote it again in the hope that it might be considered for the revised guide in season 8.
This is the language that is in the Card Game Guild Guide, right at the beginning, before it even gets to any of the rules on how the guild works.
Cooperative Play
First and foremost, the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game is a cooperative experience. Please let this idea guide your behavior during play. Don’t make decisions on behalf of other players, and don’t take actions that may harm another player’s character without that player’s consent. If there is a dispute over the rules, try to come to an agreement as quickly as possible; if that proves impossible, choose the path that benefits the most players. Be courteous and encourage a mutual interest in playing, not engaging in endless rules discussions. While you are enjoying the game, be considerate of the others at the table, and don’t let your actions keep them from having a good time too. In short, don’t be a jerk.
I feel like that is much clearer language and better guidelines to follow. What's in the guide now too often gets strictly interpreted as "don't kill," where this actually calls out "don't harm... without that player's consent." It also give the GM guidelines to follow if something comes up like an AoE being the only way to defeat a difficult enemy, but only after the players try to work it out themselves first.
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As Paul Jackson pointed out, in most cases, including most fiction throughout history, and most of the Pathfinder campaign setting, law vs chaos is a minor philosophical disagreement that rarely leads to violence.
By rarely leads to violence, you mean, they don't go to war over it.
The police vs criminals is the classic Law vs Chaos setting for that violence. (Sometimes the police are the chaotic element.)
As for order's wrath, the issue is that the spell is black and white, not the caster. The spell is completely harmless to lawful PCs and totally lethal to chaotic PCs. And the spell does not include any means of detecting alignments until after it is cast (and even there, you'd not be able to tell a chaotic character that passed their will apart from a neutral character that failed).
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I recognize that the above quote doesn't fully explain in-character why you shouldn't thwack your teammates. In part, that is a legacy of earlier seasons when one of two books (Seekers of Secrets and Pathfinder Society Field Guide) were part of the Core Assumption, which is to say books that it was assumed players would have access to when playing the game. They have both sold out of print copies since, but the PDFs are available on this site. Both explain in more detail what the Society is about, how Pathfinders are expected to behave, and some other fine traditions that I cannot adequately convey from a tablet computer at this hour. In essence, Pathfinders are inducted after three years of formal training, after which they basically swear an oath to uphold the Society's principles—best summarized by "Explore, Report, Cooperate." Pathfinders don't steal from each other, be it data, dig sites, or material goods. Pathfinders respect each other as much as their sometimes clashing personalities allow. Pathfinders do not kill each other except in the most extraordinary cases of self-defense. These are pretty common rules in any guild, including thieves guilds and assassin co-ops.
And that boils down to not wantonly killing anything that pings as chaotic, even if your character reveres a lawful deity. What is the in-character reason? The in-world Society would kick your character out...
That really explains a lot. Thanks.
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Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs
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That really explains a lot. Thanks.I recognize that the above quote doesn't fully explain in-character why you shouldn't thwack your teammates. In part, that is a legacy of earlier seasons when one of two books (Seekers of Secrets and Pathfinder Society Field Guide) were part of the Core Assumption, which is to say books that it was assumed players would have access to when playing the game. They have both sold out of print copies since, but the PDFs are available on this site. Both explain in more detail what the Society is about, how Pathfinders are expected to behave, and some other fine traditions that I cannot adequately convey from a tablet computer at this hour. In essence, Pathfinders are inducted after three years of formal training, after which they basically swear an oath to uphold the Society's principles—best summarized by "Explore, Report, Cooperate." Pathfinders don't steal from each other, be it data, dig sites, or material goods. Pathfinders respect each other as much as their sometimes clashing personalities allow. Pathfinders do not kill each other except in the most extraordinary cases of self-defense. These are pretty common rules in any guild, including thieves guilds and assassin co-ops.
And that boils down to not wantonly killing anything that pings as chaotic, even if your character reveres a lawful deity. What is the in-character reason? The in-world Society would kick your character out because he's a threat to his fellows. Because he would have violated his oath to the Society, even his deity might have stern words for him, depending on the severity of the action.
I find it out you edited off the explanation in the quote. Bolded and added it back into the quote.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I find it out you edited off the explanation in the quote. Bolded and added it back into the quote.
No, that was the forum. It auto truncates quotes. If you hit reply on John's post, you will see that it truncates at the same spot. (At least it did for me.)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The forum is a fickle mistress.
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I agree with Ferious Thune. "Don't harm without consent" is a nice clear principle.
I've been at odds with my GM when he claimed that using a single magic missile to wake up my Fascinated L3 PC would constitute illegal PVP, while I actually wanted it to happen to me.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The forum is a fickle mistress.
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I agree with Ferious Thune. "Don't harm without consent" is a nice clear principle.
I've been at odds with my GM when he claimed that using a single magic missile to wake up my Fascinated L3 PC would constitute illegal PVP, while I actually wanted it to happen to me.
To be fair, your PC couldn't say it was ok. Probably one of those odd corner cases where OC and IC can't properly match up in terms of tactics. (Although, as A DM, it is the equivalent of letting some one lightly hit you to wake you from sleep. I'd allow it).
That is all though. I don't really want to muddle this thread more.
It's the player's permission that matters to me.
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"Let's say we were in some Shelyn forsaken dungeon and some jerk uses magic to put you to sleep. Would you mind if I hit you with a magic missile to wake you up?"
"I'd much prefer Ray of Frost, thanks, provided you're not a draconic sorcerer of the silver or white bloodlines? Save the Missile for someone who truly needs a forceful introduction to the hard facts of reality?"
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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"I'd much prefer Ray of Frost, thanks, provided you're not a draconic sorcerer of the silver or white bloodlines? Save the Missile for someone who truly needs a forceful introduction to the hard facts of reality?"
"Let's say we were in some Shelyn forsaken dungeon and some jerk uses magic to put you to sleep. Would you mind if I hit you with a magic missile to wake you up?"
"Yeah, but see, that's the nice thing about magic missiles, I can give you a little tap, and still hit all the hostiles. And beside, you don't want me trying to hit a prone target in melee past team mates. Not if you want to wake up sometime this week"