Calls them Celestial Kitsunes and dives for cover. :)
I don't actually think the circumstances of Aroden's death are the core of the setting.
I see his death, and absence in this Age of Lost Omens, is the core of the setting. They don't want to tell the story of his death, at least publicly, because it doesn't matter that much to the world itself. Yeah, it'd be nice to figure out what happened to him, but it's the effects of him dying on the world that truly matter. Yeah, that uppity goody two-shoes Iomadade would love to find whatever killed him. Yeah, Pharasma probably knows more than she's letting on. But that's not the focus of the world that's being presented.
Agreed. Aroden is literally ancient history. He died over a hundred years ago, and the world moved on. We've so far run Rise of the Runelords, Serpent Skull, Jade Regent and Kingmaker... and are starting up Shattered Star
Aroden hasn't come up yet.
I really see him as potential future AP. They may get to it, they may not.. but like the world wound and baba yaga and the other runelords... if they don't happen in our games, I don't worry about them or need all the answer yet.
I certainly wouldn't want spoilers for future games sitting in any old sourcebook out there.
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Agreed. Aroden is literally ancient history. He died over a hundred years ago, and the world moved on. We've so far run Rise of the Runelords, Serpent Skull, Jade Regent and Kingmaker... and are starting up Shattered Star
Aroden hasn't come up yet.
I really see him as potential future AP. They may get to it, they may not.. but like the world wound and baba yaga and the other runelords... if they don't happen in our games, I don't worry about them or need all the answer yet.
I certainly wouldn't want spoilers for future games sitting in any old sourcebook out there.
To me, this stuff made me just think "why bother having aroden in the setting at all?" more than anything else.
To me, this stuff made me just think "why bother having aroden in the setting at all?" more than anything else.Agreed. Aroden is literally ancient history. He died over a hundred years ago, and the world moved on. We've so far run Rise of the Runelords, Serpent Skull, Jade Regent and Kingmaker... and are starting up Shattered Star
Aroden hasn't come up yet.
I really see him as potential future AP. They may get to it, they may not.. but like the world wound and baba yaga and the other runelords... if they don't happen in our games, I don't worry about them or need all the answer yet.
I certainly wouldn't want spoilers for future games sitting in any old sourcebook out there.
Because the existence and death in the setting do effect the setting, but not knowing why he died or how exactly doesn't?\
I dont think it has much impact most of the time. For me the only risk in that regard is that a player will make the mystery a key part of his back story. It's a pretty obvious plot hook, after all and I don't like not resolving things if the player's gone to the trouble of tying their PC to the world history.
My objection isn't based on its impact on play though - I get more enjoyment out of Golarion as a kind of pseudo fiction than at the table.
I'd have felt equally disappointed to have been told that 'Vader and Luke have significant history, but we're not going to reveal exactly what it is. That will increase the buzz as people can come up with their own theories.'
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Because the existence and death in the setting do effect the setting, but not knowing why he died or how exactly doesn't?
Except I sincerely can't figureout How his existence and death affected the setting aside from "He founded a major city"... and him founding it doesn't really affect much since it could have been founded by "random person number 13".
As far as I can tell he doesn't even really come up in any of the adventure paths.
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Like I said before, Cheliax and Nidal both turned away from the light (Nidal quite literally) as a result of Aroden not coming back.
Both nations called out for a protector, and Asmodeus and Zon-Kuthin answered.
Allowing for the founding of two of the most "civilized evil" nations in the setting doesn't count as an impact?
Then I don't know what does.
@TOZ- I don't think Aroden put him away personally, but his lieutenant/general/thing or did, with the help of Aroden's shield artifact.
To me, this stuff made me just think "why bother having aroden in the setting at all?" more than anything else.Agreed. Aroden is literally ancient history. He died over a hundred years ago, and the world moved on. We've so far run Rise of the Runelords, Serpent Skull, Jade Regent and Kingmaker... and are starting up Shattered Star
Aroden hasn't come up yet.
I really see him as potential future AP. They may get to it, they may not.. but like the world wound and baba yaga and the other runelords... if they don't happen in our games, I don't worry about them or need all the answer yet.
I certainly wouldn't want spoilers for future games sitting in any old sourcebook out there.
Because the existence and death in the setting do effect the setting, but not knowing why he died or how exactly doesn't?\
I dont think it has much impact most of the time. For me the only risk in that regard is that a player will make the mystery a key part of his back story. It's a pretty obvious plot hook, after all and I don't like not resolving things if the player's gone to the trouble of tying their PC to the world history.
My objection isn't based on its impact on play though - I get more enjoyment out of Golarion as a kind of pseudo fiction than at the table.
I'd have felt equally disappointed to have been told that 'Vader and Luke have significant history, but we're not going to reveal exactly what it is. That will increase the buzz as people can come up with their own theories.'
We don't get an explaination for how he died...
however he IS the explaination for other things. The death of a god ripped the world something fierce... it created the giant storm... it created the worldwound... All those really interesting setting specific things that kinda needed an explaination for existing.
How did the god die? Nobody knows... but look at all the devesation that happened because of it!!!
Love it! One question. Why no Lupinal Celestials?An awesome 3.x creature that was copyrighted by Wizards of the Coast. That's why.
Ah, cool.
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I don't think Aroden is dead. He's ascended to a state beyond godhood. He's getting ready to unleash Golarion's "Time of Troubles". Gods in avatar form, wild arcane magic, extremely limited divine magic, dogs and cats living together, Sweet, Delicious, Chaos!!! I'm working on it now.
Was thinking of changing Godless Healing so that those who use it only heal 1/2 or 1/4 from Divine Magic healing. If you choose to deny the deities worship, then you shouldn't benefit from their healing magic. Thoughts?
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Some Lamias reach false godhood and grant spells to atheists. When atheists die, they are reincarnated as Lamias. I haven't decided what false god Lamias look like. I'm considering dragons or hydras, among other things.
Some Lamias reach false godhood and grant spells to atheists. When atheists die, they are reincarnated as Lamias. I haven't decided what false god Lamias look like. I'm considering dragons or hydras, among other things.
That's interesting. Your approach to lamias sounds a lot like the approach Paizo has taken with demodands and the evil titans. So you might consider connecting them in your campaign.
Razmir might be an example of one such false god.
Mythic Adventures on page 205 shows one path for a Lamia to reach false godhood. Razmir sounds intriguing.
Atheists get clerical power from the false god nearest their alignment. Do not call Asmodeus a false god to his face.
Helllllloooo Razmir.
If he signs an immortality contract with Asmodeus, he'll be a devil, but he will live forever. :)
Some Lamias reach false godhood and grant spells to atheists. When atheists die, they are reincarnated as Lamias. I haven't decided what false god Lamias look like. I'm considering dragons or hydras, among other things.
Hydras would make sense from a metaphorical standpoint. IE: false godhood, many "faces" (heads). Just so you know, I'm totally going to use that.
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Some Lamias reach false godhood and grant spells to atheists. When atheists die, they are reincarnated as Lamias. I haven't decided what false god Lamias look like. I'm considering dragons or hydras, among other things.Hydras would make sense from a metaphorical standpoint. IE: false godhood, many "faces" (heads). Just so you know, I'm totally going to use that.
Some sort of hydra-headed lemure critter might be a funky 'petitioner' form for a fickle soul who followed and abandoned one or more leaders (or gods!) during their feckless life, with the multiple bickering backbiting heads representing all of their temporary conflicting allegiances and betrayals.
Some Lamias reach false godhood and grant spells to atheists. When atheists die, they are reincarnated as Lamias. I haven't decided what false god Lamias look like. I'm considering dragons or hydras, among other things.Hydras would make sense from a metaphorical standpoint. IE: false godhood, many "faces" (heads). Just so you know, I'm totally going to use that.Some sort of hydra-headed lemure critter might be a funky 'petitioner' form for a fickle soul who followed and abandoned one or more leaders (or gods!) during their feckless life, with the multiple bickering backbiting heads representing all of their temporary conflicting allegiances and betrayals.
In my Golorion, all confused souls become Pre-petitioners, who wander the Land of the Dead, being hunted by any interested reapers. Souls you describe, if caught, usually are cast back into life as Lamias. They can also find themselves other cursed lifeforms such as Minotaurs, Medusa's, ect. If one of Pharasma's reapers catch one, she will probably take your suggestion to heart. Either that or make them a hunted animal in the happy hunting ground. Get hunted, killed, eaten, rinse, repeat.
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Don't know how much it counts, but our biggest changes have simply been a result of the canonical inclusions of our characters and their actions.
From our Rise of the Runelords campaign, one character named herself queen of a new kingdom - Storval. Another (her sister) became a demigoddess of Archery and retired to the First World, taking up the role of the 9th Eldest.
From Wrath of the Righteous, one of our characters founded a new Hellknight order - the Order of the Lesion, based in Citadel Drezen and later became the LN Hellknight god of Judgment, Order, Discipline, Penance, and Purification after completing the Test of the Starstone. The Order of the Lesion and Gulthor's existence will end up having significant implications in both Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance.
We're working through Iron Gods now, and I'm certain that will have implications in our games as well.
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I certainly wouldn't want spoilers for future games sitting in any old sourcebook out there.
To tell us how something happened a 100 years ago hardly qualifies as spoiler for future games though; except if they actually planned to reveal this in a future AP (and they keep telling us that they won't).
But just to make this clear ( I might have sounded a bit too harsh in my former posts regarding this topic): I totally accept that it's Paizo's prerogative what to tell us and what not. I might not agree with every of their decisions (and obviously I don't with this one) but that doesn't keep me from enjoying their products.
It just means that I make Golarion "mine" in heavily borrowing from their campaign products and adapting it to other worlds I play in
I certainly wouldn't want spoilers for future games sitting in any old sourcebook out there.To tell us how something happened a 100 years ago hardly qualifies as spoiler for future games though; except if they actually planned to reveal this in a future AP (and they keep telling us that they won't).
Exactly.
The death of Aroden or the Return of Aroden... is really a prime concept for an AP. It has an epic 6 part feel to it, and while they don't admit to having something in the works right now... I can still see them doing something in the future.
His death just falls into the 'Prime AP idea' or 'Irrelevant 100 years later' catagories.
Personally, I would rather have a sourcebook with some more details about what Golarion was like 100 years ago. Telling us Aroden was killed doesn't mean much without the information of what he was like alive...
MOSTLY because there are SOOOO Many races that can START that old. I have an Elf and a Dhampir who were alive 100 years ago, so what was it like when he was around??
I hear there was something in an AP... but as a player I don't read those. I wish there some more info in like the inner sea guide or inner sea gods or something...
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For my upcoming online Kingmaker campaign, I made a whole
fan-wiki for Brevoy (the nation sponsoring the expedition), since official info on it was scarce. It covers everything from culture to laws to methods of warfare.
I started with what little canonical lore was available and extrapolated out from the larger Golarion setting (like the general egalitarianism, for instance), noted the part the doctrine of the major churches would play in laws and daily life, and took into account the likely influence of neighboring nations (i.e. how the River Freedoms would have influenced Brevoy's laws). Once I had exhausted official Golarion material, I looked at historical sources, including medieval law, Russian/Soviet history (since Brevoy is a fantasy counterpart to medieval Russia), and tried to apply what I knew about anthropology to determine how those factors would mix together to form a plausible fantasy society across various class strata (low, middle, upper and nobility). That said, I ultimately erred on the side of "creative licence narrative" over "documentary flowchart".
It was a very interesting thought-exercise. Our characters [i]live[i/] in these fantastic societies and realms, but often I feel like we know more about "the Dungeon" than we do about how a regular town or kingdom works on a daily basis.
Is serving in your kingdom's army an honor that young men compete for, or a grim meatgrinder, with mothers dreading the conscripting officers taking their sons away to die? If you steal a loaf of bread, what is the penalty - community service or getting your hand lopped off? Are the local prostitutes shunned wretches, or are they a publically-represented, organized guild having city hall by the _____?
And I feel that these "normal" details [i]are[i/] important, because if not, than what are the characters fighting for? If the adventurers descending into the monster's lair to slay it for devouring the townsfolk have no clue what those townsfolk regular lives are like, then... aren't the adventurers as aberrant as their foes?
How are we supposed to have cohesive, immersive games if everyone sits down at the table with wildly different ideas of how the universe they're adventuring in works?
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Speaking of prostitutes, in one random town, the local cat house is run by miss kitty. A were tiger who charges people to infect them with lycanthropy.
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The death of Aroden or the Return of Aroden... is really a prime concept for an AP. It has an epic 6 part feel to it, and while they don't admit to having something in the works right now... I can still see them doing something in the future.
Me too, but that's exactly what's creating the dilemma for me. If they plan on doing this eventually, I'd better not create my own solution beforehand because it most probably will create a discrepancy with future official material in a point absolutely central for the whole setting.
On the other hand, if they don't plan for this, there's basically no reason not to tell us their solution. Because if you don't like it, you still can do your own thing, but chances are that their solution is so much more awesome than anything I could come up with myself.
My game, when I can run it, deviated from the main at the point where Aroden "died".
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Some Werewolf-kin skinwalkers (witchwolves) descend from worg/human pairings in Whitethrone's Howlings district, instead of werewolves.
Kasatha used as the basis for a blue skinned multiarmed race from Vudra.
Generally down play sci fi elements, though they aren't absent. Just not focused on.
It's like running a Star Wars game. Just say "from the start of the campaign, forward, it's all my own continuity that isn't expected to match official cannon".
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Some Werewolf-kin skinwalkers (witchwolves) descend from worg/human pairings in Whitethrone's Howlings district, instead of werewolves.
Kasatha used as the basis for a blue skinned multiarmed race from Vudra.
Generally down play sci fi elements, though they aren't absent. Just not focused on.
Ooh, the Howlings-based wolfwalkers is totally cool! Very appropriate and thematic!
Kasatha as a blue-skinned four-armed Vudran race, perhaps occupying a different sort of aasimar role, culturally, is also a very cool idea.
Then again, a scarier version could use shobhad in the same role (or even tweak things to have kasatha be an earlier growth cycle of shobhad, with those attaining a certain level of enlightenment progressing to the full shobhad stats, and usually retiring to a temple to become intermediaries to the gods, serving a priestly role once they 'achieve enlightenment').
Some Werewolf-kin skinwalkers (witchwolves) descend from worg/human pairings in Whitethrone's Howlings district, instead of werewolves.
Kasatha used as the basis for a blue skinned multiarmed race from Vudra.
Generally down play sci fi elements, though they aren't absent. Just not focused on.
Ooh, the Howlings-based wolfwalkers is totally cool! Very appropriate and thematic!
Kasatha as a blue-skinned four-armed Vudran race, perhaps occupying a different sort of aasimar role, culturally, is also a very cool idea.
Then again, a scarier version could use shobhad in the same role (or even tweak things to have kasatha be an earlier growth cycle of shobhad, with those attaining a certain level of enlightenment progressing to the full shobhad stats, and usually retiring to a temple to become intermediaries to the gods, serving a priestly role once they 'achieve enlightenment').
Very Much liking this!!
Some Werewolf-kin skinwalkers (witchwolves) descend from worg/human pairings in Whitethrone's Howlings district, instead of werewolves.
Kasatha used as the basis for a blue skinned multiarmed race from Vudra.
Generally down play sci fi elements, though they aren't absent. Just not focused on.
I ran RoW with a group, then we started on Giantslayer and I gave them the option of playing the offspring of their RoW characters. Our Rogue/Assassin hooked up with Greta the winter wolf and I let him play a skinwalker very similar to what you have. Worked out nicely.
The death of Aroden or the Return of Aroden... is really a prime concept for an AP. It has an epic 6 part feel to it, and while they don't admit to having something in the works right now... I can still see them doing something in the future.Me too, but that's exactly what's creating the dilemma for me. If they plan on doing this eventually, I'd better not create my own solution beforehand because it most probably will create a discrepancy with future official material in a point absolutely central for the whole setting.
On the other hand, if they don't plan for this, there's basically no reason not to tell us their solution. Because if you don't like it, you still can do your own thing, but chances are that their solution is so much more awesome than anything I could come up with myself.
I've heard they don't do that TOO much... Shattered Star is a sorta-sequel to Rise of the Runelords... but beyond that, whatever APs you play you play and the ones you don't... you don't. Everyone's continuity is meant to be their own and their novels stories don't bleed over too much.
If the eventual Aroden AP is to your liking... use it. IF not, ignore it... The only change I would ever picture is a few clerics showing up again... but they could be easily ignored or reskinned if needed.
I just don't see any one AP being THAT important to the others... Even things like WorldWound or Baba Yaga... don't seem to cross into the APs we've chosen to play.
They've said that Aroden's death will never be revealed, not just "no plans at this stage".
I doubt they'd ever rule anything out unequivocally, but this is as close as I've seen them come.
Aroden's mystery is a Paizo employee decision.
Not enough people care for them to change it.
4th edition was a disaster that needed corporate reorganization.
I'm just saying, Aroden, it's no biggie.
Maybe, Aroden is in some Uber-mortal form, walking amongst the peoples, watching how civilization and humanity advances on it's own.
So if someone puts permanency on an enlarge person, that would persist if they die, become undead, ect.
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A petty preference for my Golarion; I don't like platinum (or those infamous 'electrum mines' in the Realms). Coins go copper -> silver -> gold -> mithral.
And then, above mithral pieces, there are adamantine bits, shaped like little pyramids (by the dwarves, who claim that they shape them that way so that they can stack them efficiently in square chests, but dragons grouse they shape that way so that sleeping on stolen dwarven treasure feels like sleeping on a bed of nails!).
Elves prefer silver and mithral coins. Halflings prefer copper, silver and mithral. (Neither race is overly enamored with gold, although they certainly recognize it's allure to other races.)
Dwarves like all sorts of coins, but among themselves like to use alloys like brass and bronze and, yes, electrum, since their metallurgical skills allow them to create blends that other races find difficult to effectively forge, or whose value they also find harder to nail down. The dwarven monopoly on certain types of metalwork (such as most masterwork metal armor and weaponry, and most use of 'special materials' like mithral and adamantine) also extends to a ridiculously convoluted and, to other races, arcane and incomprehensible, network of banking and moneylending. Other races have banks and moneylenders and mints and national coinage, but dwarven coins (mostly minted by dwarven bankers in Druma, affiliated with the church of Abadar) are the most stable form of currency recognized across various nations (and races). A Chelish merchant might charge more for a purchaser attempting to pay in Andoran-minted coin, and a Taldan merchant might similarly inflate prices to someone trying to pay in Qadiran coin, but dwarven coin cuts right across national divides. Nobody shorts a dwarf.
Humans are less likely to use mithral pieces, and instead often prefer gold 'shields' or 'doubloons,' so-called because they are 'double the size' of gold 'pennies.' (Slightly more than double, actually, as they contain 10x the gold weight of a standard 'gold piece,' and are thus exactly equal to the mithral pieces used by other races.)
Gnomes lack any sort of traditional currency, although in gnomish communities, some might trade in bars of tin and iron, and others in gleaming red-gold metal 'slices' that represent a certain value of spellcasting services (with the 'wedges' fitting together to form a sphere, and each sphere being worth a complete casting of a spell of a certain level, depending on it's size). That being said, there's no real consistency, and some gnomes might sell goods for particularly rare feathers or bones or maps or anatomical drawings of rare creatures that they desire for their collection.
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A petty preference for my Golarion; I don't like platinum (or those infamous 'electrum mines' in the Realms). Coins go copper -> silver -> gold -> mithral.
And then, above mithral pieces, there are adamantine bits, shaped like little pyramids (by the dwarves, who claim that they shape them that way so that they can stack them efficiently in square chests, but dragons grouse they shape that way so that sleeping on stolen dwarven treasure feels like sleeping on a bed of nails!).
If were gonna go coins, Iron piece(.001)->copper(.01)->silver(.1)->gold(1)->platinum(10)-> ;mithral(100)->Admantium(1,000)
Chimera, sphinx, and furries all prefer electrum(.5). They mint it, hoard it, and try to get other races to use it.
Tiles are a medium of exchange. They can hold a spell and apply it like a potion. You brake it on the place you want the spell to center. You can replace an arrow head with a tile to assure it goes off.
To make a tile you need brew potion and craft ceramics. Any source of the spell will do. Monetary value is by spell level 0/cantrip/orison(25)->1st(100)->2nd(500)->3rd(1000)->4th(5,000) -> 5th(10,000)->6th(50,000)->7th(100,000)->8th(500,000)->9th(1,000 ,000)
Mythic(2,000,000)->Epic(5,000,000) Prices are artificially inflated, due to them being fine art, and hoarding. Significant material component costs are added. Cost to make are as scrolls.
Gorum has decreed that fighters can use shield spell tiles! Do you want to argue with a god? Didn't think so.
If you don't like it pass me by.
You can forbid any wis/sorc only spells for tiling in your game if you want. I will consider other changes, but not that one.
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A petty preference for my Golarion; I don't like platinum (or those infamous 'electrum mines' in the Realms). Coins go copper -> silver -> gold -> mithral.
And then, above mithral pieces, there are adamantine bits, shaped like little pyramids (by the dwarves, who claim that they shape them that way so that they can stack them efficiently in square chests, but dragons grouse they shape that way so that sleeping on stolen dwarven treasure feels like sleeping on a bed of nails!).
If were gonna go coins, Iron piece(.001)->copper(.01)->silver(.1)->gold(1)->platinum(10)-> ;mithral(100)->Admantium(1,000)
Chimera, sphinx, and furries all prefer electrum(.5). They mint it, hoard it, and try to get other races to use it.
Tiles are a medium of exchange. They can hold a spell and apply it like a potion. You brake it on the place you want the spell to center. You can replace an arrow head with a tile to assure it goes off.
To make a tile you need brew potion and craft ceramics. Any source of the spell will do. Monetary value is by spell level 0/cantrip/orison(25)->1st(100)->2nd(500)->3rd(1000)->4th(5,000) -> 5th(10,000)->6th(50,000)->7th(100,000)->8th(500,000)->9th(1,000 ,000)
Mythic(2,000,000)->Epic(5,000,000) Prices are artificially inflated, due to them being fine art, and hoarding. Significant material component costs are added. Cost to make are as scrolls.Gorum has decreed that fighters can use shield spell tiles! Do you want to argue with a god? Didn't think so.
If you don't like it pass me by.
You can forbid any wis/sorc only spells for tiling in your game if you want. I will consider other changes, but not that one.
I actually like the use of Tiles. I use them in place of some potions.
A great GM of mine has been running a home brew campaign of his making that centers entirely around Aroden, and I love the way that's it's been presented.
Here's the thing: everyone calls Aroden "dead" simply because his followers have stopped gaining power from him. Pharasma says nothing on the matter. Considering that gods generally don't just die, out of the blue, with no warning and no explanation, it almost seems more likely that he's somehow been banished or sealed away somewhere where his power cannot extend to the vast planes of the Pathfinder universe. There's a good chance that Aroden is not dead- simply missing in action. Almost anything could have happened.
That's how our party views Golarion, anyway.
I've decided that magical senses are different. If you scry on someone, right next to them becomes a location you can teleport to. This is quickly scrambled by their being on a different planet, ship, or flying castle. You go into combat time and must teleport the next round after scrying or the opportunity is lost. While A scrys, B can be casting haste and C can start their bard song. All of them can be teleported together the next round by or with the scryer.
This is similar to how you can see glitterdust in the dark, and possibly in some of the darkness spells. Color Spray also works in darkness. It's magically visible. Somehow, when someone has mirror image up, there are 3 images and one actual character, standing on a 5 by 5 square, and you can hit only one of them at a time.
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I've heard they don't do that TOO much... Shattered Star is a sorta-sequel to Rise of the Runelords... but beyond that, whatever APs you play you play and the ones you don't... you don't. Everyone's continuity is meant to be their own and their novels stories don't bleed over too much.
That's actually another pet peeve of mine, that they decided to go without a continual progression of time and a metaplot. Now we don't need to recount all their reasons for that, I've already had this discussion.
But again, the consequence is, that I have to do the work for myself. And I decided rather to work on my own setting, which has the advantage that I can steal all the awesome Golarion stuff while simply ignoring those parts I do not really care for. Though in the meantime it has become less stealing and more getting inspired.