Can you Rank up any skill even if untrained?

[Bronsonfu]

So I have a friend who told me recently that you can't put ranks in certain trained skills unless they are class skills. He brought up the knowledge skills as examples as well as disable device. I've never heard of such ruling from anyone before and I'm almost certain he's wrong, but now I'm sitting here sweating up a storm thinking I can't have a fighter learn knowledge Arcana! Can someone help confirm that my friend has simply made this up so I can be at ease? The tension is killing me!

[Lemmy]

Yeah, when you level up you can put ranks in whatever skill you want. All that being a class skill does is give you a nice +3 bonus.

[Bronsonfu]

Lemmy wrote:

Yeah, when you level up you can put ranks in whatever skill you want. All that being a class skill does is give you a nice +3 bonus.

Thanks for the fast response! Any ideas why my friend thought this as RAW. Was it maybe ruled like this in DnD 3.5 (I have only played Pathfinder thus far so I wouldn't know).

[Pink Dragon]

Putting ranks in a skill is synonymous with training in a skill. Page 86 CRB:

Investing a rank in a skill represents a measure of training in that skill. You can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice. In addition, each class has a number of favored skills, called class skills. It is easier for your character to become more proficient in these skills, as they represent part of his professional training and constant practice. You gain a +3 bonus on all class skills that you put ranks into. If you have more than one class and both grant you a class skill bonus, these bonuses do not stack.

The issue with knowledge skills and disable device is being unable to use those skills unless the character does put a rank in them (although there are some exceptions based on circumstances). Page 87 CRB:

Trained Only: If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it. If this notation is omitted, the skill can be used untrained (with a rank of 0). If any special notes apply to trained or untrained use, they are covered in the Untrained section (see below).

Untrained: This entry indicates what a character without at least 1 rank in the skill can do with it. If this entry doesn’t appear, it means that the skill functions normally for untrained characters (if it can be used untrained) or that an untrained character can’t attempt checks with this skill (for skills that are designated “Trained Only”).

[Bronsonfu]

Pink Dragon wrote:

Putting ranks in a skill is synonymous with training in a skill. Page 86 CRB:

Investing a rank in a skill represents a measure of training in that skill. You can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice. In addition, each class has a number of favored skills, called class skills. It is easier for your character to become more proficient in these skills, as they represent part of his professional training and constant practice. You gain a +3 bonus on all class skills that you put ranks into. If you have more than one class and both grant you a class skill bonus, these bonuses do not stack.

The issue with knowledge skills and disable device is being unable to use those skills unless the character does put a rank in them (although there are some exceptions based on circumstances). Page 87 CRB:

Trained Only: If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it. If this notation is omitted, the skill can be used untrained (with a rank of 0). If any special notes apply to trained or untrained use, they are covered in the Untrained section (see below).

Untrained: This entry indicates what a character without at least 1 rank in the skill can do with it. If this entry doesn’t appear, it means that the skill functions normally for untrained characters (if it can be used untrained) or that an untrained character can’t attempt checks with this skill (for skills that are designated “Trained Only”).

Thanks for the content rich post! Really nice seeing how fast people on the message boards post.

[skizzerz]

Bronsonfu wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

Yeah, when you level up you can put ranks in whatever skill you want. All that being a class skill does is give you a nice +3 bonus.

Thanks for the fast response! Any ideas why my friend thought this as RAW. Was it maybe ruled like this in DnD 3.5 (I have only played Pathfinder thus far so I wouldn't know).

The 3.5 rule was that it costs 2 skill points to rank up a cross-class skill by 1 (and there was no +3 bonus for class skills, the "bonus" was that it only cost 1 skill point to rank them up). I'm unaware of any other rules regarding ranking up cross-class skills in 3.5, so that was perhaps a house rule your friend was thinking of.

[Bronsonfu]

skizzerz wrote:

Bronsonfu wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

Yeah, when you level up you can put ranks in whatever skill you want. All that being a class skill does is give you a nice +3 bonus.

Thanks for the fast response! Any ideas why my friend thought this as RAW. Was it maybe ruled like this in DnD 3.5 (I have only played Pathfinder thus far so I wouldn't know).

The 3.5 rule was that it costs 2 skill points to rank up a cross-class skill by 1 (and there was no +3 bonus for class skills, the "bonus" was that it only cost 1 skill point to rank them up). I'm unaware of any other rules regarding ranking up cross-class skills in 3.5, so that was perhaps a house rule your friend was thinking of.

Ya must have been an odd house rule or something. Thanks for your help.

[vorpaljesus]

Bronsonfu wrote:

Pink Dragon wrote:

Putting ranks in a skill is synonymous with training in a skill. Page 86 CRB:

Investing a rank in a skill represents a measure of training in that skill. You can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice. In addition, each class has a number of favored skills, called class skills. It is easier for your character to become more proficient in these skills, as they represent part of his professional training and constant practice. You gain a +3 bonus on all class skills that you put ranks into. If you have more than one class and both grant you a class skill bonus, these bonuses do not stack.

The issue with knowledge skills and disable device is being unable to use those skills unless the character does put a rank in them (although there are some exceptions based on circumstances). Page 87 CRB:

Trained Only: If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it. If this notation is omitted, the skill can be used untrained (with a rank of 0). If any special notes apply to trained or untrained use, they are covered in the Untrained section (see below).

Untrained: This entry indicates what a character without at least 1 rank in the skill can do with it. If this entry doesn’t appear, it means that the skill functions normally for untrained characters (if it can be used untrained) or that an untrained character can’t attempt checks with this skill (for skills that are designated “Trained Only”).

Thanks for the content rich post! Really nice seeing how fast people on the message boards post.

Stick around. There's tons to learn here even if you just read other posts. I've learned a lot of rules I didn't know existed and strategies I never gave thought to that have added fun and accuracy to our games :)

[Jeraa]

In 3.0 D&D, I believe the Animal Empathy and Use Magic Device skills could only be taken by certain classes. That restriction was dropped in 3.5 D&D.

[pauljathome]

The fly skill is an exception in Pathfinder. You need to have the ability to reliably fly to put ranks in.

And soellcraft is a lot less useful without a means to detect magic. Still learnable, mind.

[Bronsonfu]

pauljathome wrote:

The fly skill is an exception in Pathfinder. You need to have the ability to reliably fly to put ranks in.

And soellcraft is a lot less useful without a means to detect magic. Still learnable, mind.

Ya, I was just reading up on that recently about the fly skill.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Lemmy wrote:

Yeah, when you level up you can put ranks in whatever skill you want. All that being a class skill does is give you a nice +3 bonus.

In 3.5 it was more problematic to take ranks in a nonclass skill. 1 Rank used to cost 2 skill points. Pathfinder did away with that. I suspect the OP's friend had the old rule in mind.

[ryric]

Jeraa wrote:

In 3.0 D&D, I believe the Animal Empathy and Use Magic Device skills could only be taken by certain classes. That restriction was dropped in 3.5 D&D.

It was Use Magic Device and Decipher Script that were restricted to rogues and bards. Made qualifying for Arcane Trickster a real pain because you had to have four rogue levels to meet the prereq of 7 ranks of Decipher Script.

[kinevon]

Bronsonfu wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

Yeah, when you level up you can put ranks in whatever skill you want. All that being a class skill does is give you a nice +3 bonus.

Thanks for the fast response! Any ideas why my friend thought this as RAW. Was it maybe ruled like this in DnD 3.5 (I have only played Pathfinder thus far so I wouldn't know).

Actually, IIRC, in 4th Edition D&D, you could only put ranks in skills that were explicitly listed for each class. And only at first level. After that, skills improved based on level, but even included the untrained skills.

5E gives more sources for which skills can be trained, class, race, backgrounds, but once you are done, you are done, and improvement mainly comes form leveling up, again.

[glass]

kinevon wrote:

Bronsonfu wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

Yeah, when you level up you can put ranks in whatever skill you want. All that being a class skill does is give you a nice +3 bonus.

Thanks for the fast response! Any ideas why my friend thought this as RAW. Was it maybe ruled like this in DnD 3.5 (I have only played Pathfinder thus far so I wouldn't know).

Actually, IIRC, in 4th Edition D&D, you could only put ranks in skills that were explicitly listed for each class. And only at first level. After that, skills improved based on level, but even included the untrained skills.

Kinda. 4e does not have ranks, you are either trained in a skill or not. But you are correct that your picks are constrained at first level by your class (mostly, background can add one more). Multiclass feats or Skill training can add more trained skilled.

_
glass.