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...how else do you interpret that a player MUST be able to supply a printed character sheet other than ONLY a printed character sheet is legal, i.e. cannot be refused by the GM?
Like this. ^_^
The player must be able to supply the sheet. They have to have it and be able to provide it to the GM upon request.
If the player doesn't have a sheet to hand you, you can refuse them. If they can hand you the sheet, it doesn't matter whether they're using that piece of paper or the digital sheet on their laptop/tablet.
Simply put, "supply" and "use" are not the same thing.
Just my interpretation, of course.
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Please link to the statement by Mike that only paper copies are legal character sheets.Mike said you MUST be able to supply a printed character sheet. He did not say you must be able to supply a printed character sheet UNLESS you are using Hero Lab.What those two statements DON'T mean together is that:
1) A Hero Lab character sheet on a electronic device is legal (it is already accepted that GMs are not required to accept non-printed character sheets).
2) Using Hero Lab to keep track of your buffs, conditional modifiers, HP, etc. is legal.Im in complete disagreement with you here.
If Mike meant you could print out HeroLab sheets and use those he would have specified it. Since he didn't, that means (unless Tonya wants to clarify otherwise) that running from the program on your laptop or tablet is fine, so long as you have a paper copy for backup in case the power dies or the GM wants to see the paper copy.
Yes, and that was for the express purpose of making sure that you could pass it to the GM for their perusal if they wanted access to your sheet and not wanting to take the risk of dropping your laptop or tablet. Nowhere did he say you MUST use the paper copy.
You are correct, he did not say you must USE a paper copy. He said only a paper copy was a legal character sheet. Thus a GM may, if they so choose, refuse to accept someone using a different format other than the printed form. Now as far as I am aware of, Nefreet is the only one to actually make use of that right. But since he does GM at major conventions like GenCon then him having that right is relevant.
Personally, I would not do such a thing and think GMs should allow them, but again, that doesn't mean Nefreet doesn't have the right to refuse them. If was, after all, Nefreet's refusal that forced the ruling in the first place.
He did not use those express words, but how else do you interpret that a player MUST be able to supply a printed character sheet other than ONLY a printed character sheet is legal, i.e. cannot be refused by the GM?
Note that at no point am I saying that you CAN'T use a non-printed character sheet as long as the GM allows it. But the GM doesn't have to allow it.
I interpret it to mean that those statements have nothing to do with each other.
Using HeroLab (or other electronic character sheet) is legal.
Using a paper copy is legal.
If you use HeroLab as your character sheet, you must have a paper copy of your sheet available for the GM to look at if they need to see your sheet and want a paper one.
That in no way invalidates the electronic sheets and it in no way gives anyone the right to boot people from his table for using Herolab for their sheet.
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Trollbill
The Dm CAN require a paper character sheet. They do not have to insist on a paper character sheet: they can and probably will be ok with an electronic one. IE neither the DM nor the player are breaking any rules when they use an electronic sheet
I agree. What I mean by 'legal' is: MUST be accepted by the GM versus MAY be accepted by the GM. A GM MUST accept a printed character sheet as a valid character sheet. They MAY accept a non-printed character as a valid character sheet.
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I agree. What I mean by 'legal' is: MUST be accepted by the GM versus MAY be accepted by the GM. A GM MUST accept a printed character sheet as a valid character sheet. They MAY accept a non-printed character as a valid character sheet.Trollbill
The Dm CAN require a paper character sheet. They do not have to insist on a paper character sheet: they can and probably will be ok with an electronic one. IE neither the DM nor the player are breaking any rules when they use an electronic sheet
Please provide a link to where it says paper copies must be accepted and electronic ones can be rejected just cause they are electronic.
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I agree. What I mean by 'legal' is: MUST be accepted by the GM versus MAY be accepted by the GM. A GM MUST accept a printed character sheet as a valid character sheet. They MAY accept a non-printed character as a valid character sheet.Trollbill
The Dm CAN require a paper character sheet. They do not have to insist on a paper character sheet: they can and probably will be ok with an electronic one. IE neither the DM nor the player are breaking any rules when they use an electronic sheet
Please provide a link to the source post where you are garnering your interpretation ... that would be helpful
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I interpret it to mean that those statements have nothing to do with each other.
Using HeroLab (or other electronic character sheet) is legal.
Using a paper copy is legal.If you use HeroLab as your character sheet, you must have a paper copy of your sheet available for the GM to look at if they need to see your sheet and want a paper one.
That in no way invalidates the electronic sheets and it in no way gives anyone the right to boot people from his table for using Herolab for their sheet.
That would be in contradiction to what instigated the ruling in the first place, i.e. Nefreet's right to refuse electronic character sheets at the table. His right to do so it was started the whole thing in the first place and now you are saying that the rule specifically designed address this doesn't address this.
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That would be in contradiction to what instigated the ruling in the first place, i.e. Nefreet's right to refuse electronic character sheets at the table. His right to do so it was started the whole thing in the first place and now you are saying that the rule specifically designed address this doesn't address this.I interpret it to mean that those statements have nothing to do with each other.
Using HeroLab (or other electronic character sheet) is legal.
Using a paper copy is legal.If you use HeroLab as your character sheet, you must have a paper copy of your sheet available for the GM to look at if they need to see your sheet and want a paper one.
That in no way invalidates the electronic sheets and it in no way gives anyone the right to boot people from his table for using Herolab for their sheet.
Was Mr. Brock's ruling in response to Nefreet specifically? I'd really like to read the original discussion, if you have a link. ^_^
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That would be in contradiction to what instigated the ruling in the first place, i.e. Nefreet's right to refuse electronic character sheets at the table. His right to do so it was started the whole thing in the first place and now you are saying that the rule specifically designed address this doesn't address this.I interpret it to mean that those statements have nothing to do with each other.
Using HeroLab (or other electronic character sheet) is legal.
Using a paper copy is legal.If you use HeroLab as your character sheet, you must have a paper copy of your sheet available for the GM to look at if they need to see your sheet and want a paper one.
That in no way invalidates the electronic sheets and it in no way gives anyone the right to boot people from his table for using Herolab for their sheet.
Yes, that's what Im saying. Nefreet, nor anyone else, have no right whatsoever to boot someone from the table for insisting they will use HeroLab on their iPad to run their character.
If Nefreet wants to see their character sheet, they need to be able to provide a paper sheet to show to him so he doesn't have to worry about breaking their electronic device, according to the rule.
The rule is not in place so that Nefreet can say 'I don't like people using tablets, you have to use your paper instead.'
Now, I can see where the 'we strongly recommend you to work with the player' part could mean that Nefreet has the ability to ban people if he chooses, but I disagree. I don't think it means you can ban people for refusing to play off a paper, it means you should allow them to play anyway, even if they forget their paper.
@ Nefreet, I don't mean to be solely targeting you. Just using you here for shorthand for anyone who would rule this way.
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Ok .. so Mike said that physical sheets are required.
No where in that thread does he say that physical sheets are the only legal character sheet.
No where in that thread does he say that you cannot use an electronic character sheet
No where in that thread does he give permission for GMs to refuse a player a seat because they do not have a paper copy
what he does say
Mike Brock
While we require that players have physical chronicle and character sheets, we want it to be as easy as possible for anyone to come to a PFS game and play Pathfinder! So if someone comes to your table without a printed character sheet, we strongly encourage you to find a way to include them in the game and then advise them of the rules for future games. We want everyone to feel welcome in our PFS community.
Which to me means figure out a way to make it work and let the player know that they need to have a paper copy in the future. To me this does NOT mean that I have the right to refuse the player a seat at the table nor does it give me the right to say that they cannot use their electronic character sheet.
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Basically, Im likening the forgetting of the paper sheet to forgetting your chronicle sheets. The GM may be willing to work with you, but if you continue to do it, they aren't obligated to run for you.
This rule wasn't meant to give the GM the final decision on which medium you can run a character.
Though Im in total agreement about electronic die rollers. I don't like them.
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I run my character on a tablet with hero lab
I bring a paper backup
if I am at a con and the GM refuses to seat me because of herolab/tablet/electronic issues uh well then cool
no argument from me
then I will actually have time to hit the dealer room for once
of course this has never ever happened to me
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Please provide a link to where it says paper copies must be accepted and electronic ones can be rejected just cause they are electronic.I agree. What I mean by 'legal' is: MUST be accepted by the GM versus MAY be accepted by the GM. A GM MUST accept a printed character sheet as a valid character sheet. They MAY accept a non-printed character as a valid character sheet.Trollbill
The Dm CAN require a paper character sheet. They do not have to insist on a paper character sheet: they can and probably will be ok with an electronic one. IE neither the DM nor the player are breaking any rules when they use an electronic sheet
It has been provided previously, but here it is again:
Mike Brock's post on the matter
While we require that players have physical chronicle and character sheets, we want it to be as easy as possible for anyone to come to a PFS game and play Pathfinder! So if someone comes to your table without a printed character sheet, we strongly encourage you to find a way to include them in the game and then advise them of the rules for future games. We want everyone to feel welcome in our PFS community.
It does not say "we require that players have a physical or electronic chronicle and character sheet," ergo the GM is only required to accept physical chronicles and character sheets.
For interpretation purposes this was all started by a thread where Nefreet express his right, like he did in this thread, to refuse electronic character sheets. The debate got heated to the point that another thread was started specifically to answer this question and Mike was forced to make a ruling. It was a ruling he didn't like making and most of the posters didn't it either but is was made, none-the-less.
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If someone wants a paper character sheet, how long would it take to copy it over from your tablet to dead tree form? If you ask for a dead tree character sheet there's at least three in my bag 1 stuck to the tape of a players handbook and a 50 50 chance of there being one in my wallet for emergencies.
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Please provide a link to where it says paper copies must be accepted and electronic ones can be rejected just cause they are electronic.I agree. What I mean by 'legal' is: MUST be accepted by the GM versus MAY be accepted by the GM. A GM MUST accept a printed character sheet as a valid character sheet. They MAY accept a non-printed character as a valid character sheet.Trollbill
The Dm CAN require a paper character sheet. They do not have to insist on a paper character sheet: they can and probably will be ok with an electronic one. IE neither the DM nor the player are breaking any rules when they use an electronic sheet
It has been provided previously, but here it is again:
Mike Brock's post on the matter
While we require that players have physical chronicle and character sheets, we want it to be as easy as possible for anyone to come to a PFS game and play Pathfinder! So if someone comes to your table without a printed character sheet, we strongly encourage you to find a way to include them in the game and then advise them of the rules for future games. We want everyone to feel welcome in our PFS community.It does not say "we require that players have a physical or electronic chronicle and character sheet," ergo the GM is only required to accept physical chronicles and character sheets.
For interpretation purposes this was all started by a thread where Nefreet express his right, like he did in this thread, to refuse electronic character sheets. The debate got heated to the point that another thread was started specifically to answer this question and Mike was forced to make a ruling. It was a ruling he didn't like making and most of the posters didn't it either but is was made, none-the-less.
Again, "provide" =/= "use". He said you have to have one. That's all.
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This does not jibe with Mike Brock's statements on the matter. How do you reconcile this?To be even more clear. PFS GMs have the right to refuse digital character sheets and can require physical ones. This is, however, a choice on the part of the GM and few exercise this right. But I recommend you prepare for this possibility, especially if you are planning on playing with groups/GMs you are not familiar with.As far as I'm aware GMS do not have the right to ban a digital character sheet.
It sure does jibe. The only thing you must do, is have a physical sheet available should the GM want to look at it. That was the ruling Mike made. I do not believe he said a GM could disallow an electronic sheet.
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If someone wants a paper character sheet, how long would it take to copy it over from your tablet to dead tree form? If you ask for a dead tree character sheet there's at least three in my bag 1 stuck to the tape of a players handbook and a 50 50 chance of there being one in my wallet for emergencies.
Well, to be sure, Mike only said "physical," so your clay tablet is also acceptable.
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Again, "provide" =/= "use". He said you...Please provide a link to where it says paper copies must be accepted and electronic ones can be rejected just cause they are electronic.I agree. What I mean by 'legal' is: MUST be accepted by the GM versus MAY be accepted by the GM. A GM MUST accept a printed character sheet as a valid character sheet. They MAY accept a non-printed character as a valid character sheet.Trollbill
The Dm CAN require a paper character sheet. They do not have to insist on a paper character sheet: they can and probably will be ok with an electronic one. IE neither the DM nor the player are breaking any rules when they use an electronic sheet
It has been provided previously, but here it is again:
Mike Brock's post on the matter
While we require that players have physical chronicle and character sheets, we want it to be as easy as possible for anyone to come to a PFS game and play Pathfinder! So if someone comes to your table without a printed character sheet, we strongly encourage you to find a way to include them in the game and then advise them of the rules for future games. We want everyone to feel welcome in our PFS community.It does not say "we require that players have a physical or electronic chronicle and character sheet," ergo the GM is only required to accept physical chronicles and character sheets.
For interpretation purposes this was all started by a thread where Nefreet express his right, like he did in this thread, to refuse electronic character sheets. The debate got heated to the point that another thread was started specifically to answer this question and Mike was forced to make a ruling. It was a ruling he didn't like making and most of the posters didn't it either but is was made, none-the-less.
I cited the original cause of the ruling for purposes of interpretation. If you refuse to acknowledge that reason, you are ignoring RAI for RAW.
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It sure does jibe. The only thing you must do, is have a physical sheet available should the GM want to look at it. That was the ruling Mike made. I do not believe he said a GM could disallow an electronic sheet.This does not jibe with Mike Brock's statements on the matter. How do you reconcile this?To be even more clear. PFS GMs have the right to refuse digital character sheets and can require physical ones. This is, however, a choice on the part of the GM and few exercise this right. But I recommend you prepare for this possibility, especially if you are planning on playing with groups/GMs you are not familiar with.As far as I'm aware GMS do not have the right to ban a digital character sheet.
Again, that would seem to go against the purpose of the ruling in the first place. It is parsing RAW to ignore RAI. This ruling served no purpose if it did not address Nefreet's right of refusal.
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Again, "provide" =/= "use". He said you...
To play devil's advocate here. How can I be certain as a GM that your digital sheet is the same as your paper sheet? Forcing someone to play off the paper sheet would be the only way to ensure that the PC is playing the exact same character stats you looked at without having to cross reference everything they do with the physical copy on hand.
Mind you if a GM is going to be that legalistic and adversarial about the use of digital sheets. I probably would suspect I'm not going to have a good time playing with said GM.
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...Again,Please provide a link to where it says paper copies must be accepted and electronic ones can be rejected just cause they are electronic.I agree. What I mean by 'legal' is: MUST be accepted by the GM versus MAY be accepted by the GM. A GM MUST accept a printed character sheet as a valid character sheet. They MAY accept a non-printed character as a valid character sheet.Trollbill
The Dm CAN require a paper character sheet. They do not have to insist on a paper character sheet: they can and probably will be ok with an electronic one. IE neither the DM nor the player are breaking any rules when they use an electronic sheet
It has been provided previously, but here it is again:
Mike Brock's post on the matter
While we require that players have physical chronicle and character sheets, we want it to be as easy as possible for anyone to come to a PFS game and play Pathfinder! So if someone comes to your table without a printed character sheet, we strongly encourage you to find a way to include them in the game and then advise them of the rules for future games. We want everyone to feel welcome in our PFS community.It does not say "we require that players have a physical or electronic chronicle and character sheet," ergo the GM is only required to accept physical chronicles and character sheets.
For interpretation purposes this was all started by a thread where Nefreet express his right, like he did in this thread, to refuse electronic character sheets. The debate got heated to the point that another thread was started specifically to answer this question and Mike was forced to make a ruling. It was a ruling he didn't like making and most of the posters didn't it either but is was made, none-the-less.
And arguing a bad rule based on it being a rule ... is bad form..
I'll echo the previous poster .. I'm done with this discussion, it's pointless
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Again, "provide" =/= "use". He said you...To play devil's advocate here. How can I be certain as a GM that your digital sheet is the same as your paper sheet? Forcing someone to play off the paper sheet would be the only way to ensure that the PC is playing the exact same character stats you looked at without having to cross reference everything they do with the physical copy on hand.
Mind you if a GM is going to be that legalistic and adversarial about the use of digital sheets. I probably would suspect I'm not going to have a good time playing with said GM.
How can you be sure my paper sheet is the same as my paper sheet?
Its funny that your character is the most important thing in PFS but its the thing with the least amount of tracking on it. People usually start with a new paper chracter sheet after a few levels when there's more eraser holes than paper left and I've had more than one character sheet wander off to be replaced with "close enough for state work" replacement.
Rules arguments this persnickity give PFS a really bad reputation.
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Trollbill:
You've claimed it, not cited it. Citations involve evidence. ^_^
The linked thread was started by Daniel Wheeler, and his post makes no reference to an earlier discussion starting it. Nefreet has exactly one post in the linked thread, and all it says is that he's not participating in the discussion.
Please cite evidence that this ruling has the slightest thing to do with Nefreet specifically, or in some way backs up your interpretation. Otherwise, it seems like you're putting words in Michael Brock's mouth.
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And arguing a bad rule based on it being a rule ... is bad form..
I'll echo the previous poster .. I'm done with this discussion, it's pointless
Wait. It's bad form to explain what a rule actually means/says to people if you don't agree with the rule? I should only be explaining rules I agree with?
You and I are from two completely different planets.
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And arguing a bad rule based on it being a rule ... is bad form..
I'll echo the previous poster .. I'm done with this discussion, it's pointless
Wait. It's bad form to explain what a rule actually means/says to people if you don't agree with the rule? I should only be explaining rules I agree with?
You and I are from two completely different planets.
We've argued based on what it actually says. Your arguments appear to be based on what you want it to mean.
I welcome evidence to the contrary, of course. ^_^
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Trollbill:
You've claimed it, not cited it. Citations involve evidence. ^_^
The linked thread was started by Daniel Wheeler, and his post makes no reference to an earlier discussion starting it. Nefreet has exactly one post in the linked thread, and all it says is that he's not participating in the discussion.
Please cite evidence that this ruling has the slightest thing to do with Nefreet specifically, or in some way backs up your interpretation. Otherwise, it seems like you're putting words in Michael Brock's mouth.
I was there. I know the timing of the events. I know why I and others pushed Mike and I know what Mike said to me in PMs.
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I was there. I know the timing of the events. I know why I and others pushed Mike and I know what Mike said to me in PMs.Trollbill:
You've claimed it, not cited it. Citations involve evidence. ^_^
The linked thread was started by Daniel Wheeler, and his post makes no reference to an earlier discussion starting it. Nefreet has exactly one post in the linked thread, and all it says is that he's not participating in the discussion.
Please cite evidence that this ruling has the slightest thing to do with Nefreet specifically, or in some way backs up your interpretation. Otherwise, it seems like you're putting words in Michael Brock's mouth.
While I appreciate your experience, the problem is that anecdotal evidence isn't a very good basis for a policy. No matter how accurate your info is, it's no more reliable than the claims of someone lying through their teeth to support their interpretation of policy.
The difference is documentation. If you had something concrete backing this up, it would be far easier to take your word for it.
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If this is what PFS really is, maybe getting into it was a mistake...
Forum arguments are not indicative of actual play communities. I have yet to see this come up in any game I have been involved with nor have I ever heard of it creating an issue.
It is largely a single person crusade due to an irrational hatred of a moderately useful tool used by a lot of people.
If this was in reference to Nefreet, in fairness, he exited the conversation a long time ago, I'm guessing because he saw where it was headed. Or maybe he's just been busy.
Either way, Kalindlara, please don't think this is representative of actual PFS play. It's a corner case that a few people on the boards feel very strongly about.
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My argument actually is helped by what you say.
I even asked exactly that in the thread where Mike made his ruling. He did not further elaborate, and I did not push it.
You need a paper character sheet. That is not in dispute.
But you may certainly play electronically if you wish, and a GM has no rules basis to deny you doing so, as long as you have the paper sheet.
No it doesnt. The purpose of the ruling was limiting the liability of GMS and Paizo. And as long as I have the availability of paper to do just that, I've satisfied the purpose. Whether I use electronic or hero labs, has zero bearing on this.Except that the problem this argument runs in to is that if I am asked to provide the source material for something I am using then it is entriely legal for me to do so using the watermarked PDF on the exact same tablet and the GM cannot demand that I provide a print out instead.
As an argument it doesnt hold water very well.
Chances are the GM has the resource too and just needs to verify the player has their own copy. Alternatively, the player can read the relevant passage to the GM. There are a number of ways a GM may not actually need to use the tablet itself to verify a player's use of a feature. Not so easy for the character sheet.
If this is what PFS really is, maybe getting into it was a mistake...
Nah, at a big convention, PFS is a lot more about being in a noisy room, barely able to hear your GM and the other players...
Fortunately, smaller cons aren't as noisy. But you really do get a variety of different sorts of players - quite a few of whom don't know the rules very well, absolutely independently of whether or not they use HeroLab.
