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I have some doubts about how bane enchantment interacts with a magic bow.
- If I'm using +1 arrows with a +5 longbow, only the highest enhancement bonus applies, so my attack is done with a +5 (and not a +6) enhancement bonus.
- If I'm using +1 flaming arrows with a +5 longbow, the enhancement bonus from the arrows doesn't stack, but the flaming property is applied. My attack would be done with a +5 enhancement bonus and would have the flaming property.
- If I'm using a +5 undead bane bow against an undead target, the undead bane property applies, so my attack would be done with a +7 enhancement bonus and would cause and additional 2d6 damage against the undead target.
So far so good. But what happens if I'm using +1 undead bane arrows with a +5 bow against an undead target? I know the 2d6 extra damage would apply, but what about the other effect from the bane property (the +2 extra enhancement bonus)? Does the bane property from the arrows apply independently, and therefore the enhancement bonus for the attack would be +7, just as if I were using a +5 undead bane bow?
I hope I'm making myself clear. Thanks a lot in advance for your help!
That's a fair question.
I think there are only two possible answers.
Either +7 to attack and damage +2d6 damage from bane or +5 to attack and damage and 2d6 bane.
The question is really does the bane get applied to only the arrows enhancement bonus or to the weapon's enhancement bonus?
I think the way this works is that a bow imparts it's enhancement bonus to ammunition fired from it. That's why a bow firing non-magical ammunition deals extra damage from the enhancement bonus.
So what I think happens is the +5 bow fires the +1 bane arrow, which then becomes a +5 bane arrow. Which will have +7 attack and damage and 2d6 additional damage.
I could also be wrong.
I'm with Claxon. You fire +5 Bane arrows, and then you calculate you bonus against the specific target.
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You got to the point of the hypothetical I'm about to put below, which is:
+5 Undead Bane when you fire a +1 Undead Bane through a +5 bow.
So then you fire that against a tiger. The tiger is hit by a +5 Undead Bane arrow and it does not proc.
But let's say it was a clever illusion and that's a zombie tiger. That's still a +5 Undead Bane arrow, which procs Undead Bane, does +7 and +2d6.
The enhancement bonus to attack and damage is capped at 5, but the 2d6 still applies.
The enhancement bonus to attack and damage is capped at 5, but the 2d6 still applies.
This is incorrect. A weapon can only be enchanted to a +5 enhancement bonus, but the bane property can create an enhancement bonus with higher than than +5.
I also believe that +7 to hit and damage is appropriate in this situation. Both the arrow getting the enhancement bonus from the bane and the enhancement bonus from the bow are happening at the same time, with no clear choice as to which should be first. When that sort of thing happens, the choice of order is in the hands of the user, and naturally one would choose the most beneficial.
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bane allows you to go higher than the +5 limit. FAQ
The enhancement bonus to attack and damage is capped at 5, but the 2d6 still applies.
Not in the case of bane.
I slightly disagree with Claxon's interpretation.
Calculate the total effective active benefit on each item, the arrow and the bow. Then only the highest bonus applies.
+1 bane (undead) arrow used against an undead target is a +3 arrow that does an additional 2d6 of damage. The +5 bow is still a +5 bow. The net result is a +5 arrow that does an additional 2d6 of damage against undead.
If you had a +2 bow, and +1 bane (undead) arrows, and your party's wizard cast Greater Magic Weapon on the arrows, granting them +3 bonus, I believe the correct next bonus when firing at undead would be +3 arrows doing an additional 2d6 points of damage. I believe the bane's increase to enhancement bonus applies to the original enhancement on the arrow, and then compare the result to other stacking benefits in play, resulting in two different effects at +3 rather than stacking bonuses that grant +5 in this case.
Edited -- corrected missing "disagree" in first line. Sorry about confusion.
The enhancement bonus to attack and damage is capped at 5, but the 2d6 still applies.This is incorrect. A weapon can only be enchanted to a +5 enhancement bonus, but the bane property can create an enhancement bonus with higher than than +5.
I also believe that +7 to hit and damage is appropriate in this situation. Both the arrow getting the enhancement bonus from the bane and the enhancement bonus from the bow are happening at the same time, with no clear choice as to which should be first. When that sort of thing happens, the choice of order is in the hands of the user, and naturally one would choose the most beneficial.
That should be an errata not an FAQ. The book does not have any exceptions.
PS: I do realize I was incorrect. :)
I also agree with Claxon. I think the benefits of a Special Abilities should be applied after the overlapping Enhancement bonus is calculated. A +1 arrow from a +5 bow has a +5 Enhancement bonus. Then Bane gives it a +2 boost.
I agree with Claxon's interpretation.
Calculate the total effective active benefit on each item, the arrow and the bow. Then only the highest bonus applies.
+1 bane (undead) arrow used against an undead target is a +3 arrow that does an additional 2d6 of damage. The +5 bow is still a +5 bow. The net result is a +5 arrow that does an additional 2d6 of damage against undead.
If you had a +2 bow, and +1 bane (undead) arrows, and your party's wizard cast Greater Magic Weapon on the arrows, granting them +3 bonus, I believe the correct next bonus when firing at undead would be +3 arrows doing an additional 2d6 points of damage. I believe the bane's increase to enhancement bonus applies to the original enhancement on the arrow, and then compare the result to other stacking benefits in play, resulting in two different effects at +3 rather than stacking bonuses that grant +5 in this case.
I agree with this also.
The rules say that the bow passes its abilities to the arrow. The rules do not say the arrow passes properties to the bow.
Not that it would matter because if the bow is +1 bane then you would have a +1 bane bow and a +5 arrow and the result would still be +5 with bane added on.
If you had a +2 bow, and +1 bane (undead) arrows, and your party's wizard cast Greater Magic Weapon on the arrows, granting them +3 bonus, I believe the correct next bonus when firing at undead would be +3 arrows doing an additional 2d6 points of damage. I believe the bane's increase to enhancement bonus applies to the original enhancement on the arrow, and then compare the result to other stacking benefits in play, resulting in two different effects at +3 rather than stacking bonuses that grant +5 in this case.
I am unsure how you come to this conclusion. Bane adds +2 to an existing enhancement bonus, there is nothing in the wording to suggest that it cares about the source of the enhancement bonus.
Greater magic weapon provides and enhancement bonus. Bane adds + 2 to an enhancement bonus.
The arrow out of the bow is a +5 bane something arrow. If it's going against it's target it gets a boost. Since bane is a special enhancement like flaming, the property is added to the bow's bonus. because you need to add the bonuses and properties together to see what you end up with before applying any effects.
Because if you say it's now a +3 arrow that does an extra 2d6 I'll just add bane again to get the +2 and another 2d6 as there's no longer any overlapping abilities.
I remember that magic bows add the bonus to hit but you have to use the arrow's bonus for damage. It also depends on if it's a bane bow or bane arrow. A +5 bane bow with a +1 arrow would have a plus 7 bonus to hit against the chosen creature and do 2D6 +1 damage.
A +5 bow with a +1 bane arrow would hit with + 5 and deal 2D6 + 3 damage.
The arrow out of the bow is a +5 bane something arrow. If it's going against it's target it gets a boost. Since bane is a special enhancement like flaming, the property is added to the bow's bonus. because you need to add the bonuses and properties together to see what you end up with before applying any effects.
Because if you say it's now a +3 arrow that does an extra 2d6 I'll just add bane again to get the +2 and another 2d6 as there's no longer any overlapping abilities.
The arrow can only have the bane property apply once so the bane from the arrow and bow would overlap. There would be no 4d6. It is the same reason why attacking a demon with double baned weapon that goes after chaotic and evil outsiders only works once.
I remember that magic bows add the bonus to hit but you have to use the arrow's bonus for damage. It also depends on if it's a bane bow or bane arrow. A +5 bane bow with a +1 arrow would have a plus 7 bonus to hit against the chosen creature and do 2D6 +1 damage.
A +5 bow with a +1 bane arrow would hit with + 5 and deal 2D6 + 3 damage.
I think we agree but where are you getting your numbers from?
I have 1d8+2d6+7 first example.
For the 2nd I have 1d8+2d6+5
Both assume a medium sized wielder.
The arrow can only have the bane property apply once so the bane from the arrow and bow would overlap. There would be no 4d6. It is the same reason why attacking a demon with double baned weapon that goes after chaotic and evil outsiders only works once.The arrow out of the bow is a +5 bane something arrow. If it's going against it's target it gets a boost. Since bane is a special enhancement like flaming, the property is added to the bow's bonus. because you need to add the bonuses and properties together to see what you end up with before applying any effects.
Because if you say it's now a +3 arrow that does an extra 2d6 I'll just add bane again to get the +2 and another 2d6 as there's no longer any overlapping abilities.
Right, but if we're no longer using a +1 bane arrow in our +5 bow, and are instead using a +3 arrow that does an extra 2d6 then it's no longer bane and you should be able to add bane from the bow. If you first combined the two into a +5 bane shot then you'd handle it because it'd have bane twice if you added it to the bow.
I remember that magic bows add the bonus to hit but you have to use the arrow's bonus for damage.
No. The +5 enhancement bonus from the bow applies to both attack rolls and damage.
Greater magic weapon provides and enhancement bonus. Bane adds + 2 to an enhancement bonus.Greater magic weapon don't stack with weapon enhancements. It overlap.
It doesn't stack with enhancement bonuses. It is certainly allows other bonuses and magical properties. And bane doesn't provide an enhancement bonus, it provides a +2 bonus to an enhancement bonus.
How would you deal with an inquisitor that cast greater magic weapon and used their bane special ability on a non-magic sword?
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And bane doesn't provide an enhancement bonus, it provides a +2 bonus to an enhancement bonus.
Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus.
An enhancement to an enhancement bonus don't exist. As the property say, it increase the enchanted weapon bonus by +2. So the arrow is +3.
The bane ability of the inquisitor give the bane ability to the weapon. A weapon enchanted with greater magic weapon has an enhancement bonus, that of greater magic weapon (if it is greater than the bonus of the weapon), so the bane ability do (again) what it say. It increase the weapon enhancement bonus of the weapon.
You instead are trying to do something different. You take an item that has its enhancement bonus, the +3 from the base +1 and bane, a rule that say "Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies." and try to bypass the text that say that "Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies" saying that you will take the +1, apply the +5 from the bow and then apply the other enhancement of the arrow.
It don't work that way. You have 2 different enhancements and will take the higher. Nothing more.
Right, but if we're no longer using a +1 bane arrow in our +5 bow, and are instead using a +3 arrow that does an extra 2d6 then it's no longer bane and you should be able to add bane from the bow. If you first combined the two into a +5 bane shot then you'd handle it because it'd have bane twice if you added it to the bow.The arrow can only have the bane property apply once so the bane from the arrow and bow would overlap. There would be no 4d6. It is the same reason why attacking a demon with double baned weapon that goes after chaotic and evil outsiders only works once.The arrow out of the bow is a +5 bane something arrow. If it's going against it's target it gets a boost. Since bane is a special enhancement like flaming, the property is added to the bow's bonus. because you need to add the bonuses and properties together to see what you end up with before applying any effects.
Because if you say it's now a +3 arrow that does an extra 2d6 I'll just add bane again to get the +2 and another 2d6 as there's no longer any overlapping abilities.
+1 bane arrow is +3 for the purpose of the target and does +2d6. It does not really change into a default +3 arrow, nor lose bane.
Also you missed where I said adding bane twice does not allow for doubling up on damage. I said that because an FAQ said that is how it works. So once again you can bane a weapon twice, but it wont increase the damage.
As I see it, it is a +1 <insert property here> arrow being fired by a +5 bow which results in +5 <insert property here> arrow. THEN the <insert property here> is resolved when the attack is resolved.
Really, this is the simplest way of dealing with things and the one with the lowest potential for confusion.
I don't understand why people are trying to resolve properties before the attack is even rolled.
+1 bane arrow is +3 for the purpose of the target and does +2d6. It does not really change into a default +3 arrow, nor lose bane.
Also you missed where I said adding bane twice does not allow for doubling up on damage. I said that because an FAQ said that is how it works. So once again you can bane a weapon twice, but it wont increase the damage.
I'm not missing anything. I know that having bane twice doesn't do more damage. And I know it doesn't turn into a +3. That's why it should pass the bane effect onto the +5 from the bow.
if you have a +1 Bane Arrow and a +5 bow you add them up to be a +5 bane effect.
But if it's not a +1 bane arrow, but a +3 arrow that does +2d6 damage, then it's no longer a bane arrow and you'd be able to add bane to that from the bow.
The fact that you can't stack bane I feel supports that it becomes a +5 bane effect.
+1 bane arrow and +5 bane bow = +5 bane bane effect, banes don't stack and you're at a +5 bane effect.
The enhancement bonus to attack and damage is capped at 5, but the 2d6 still applies.Not in the case of bane.
The fault in your analysis is that your applying the same logic as you would to a melee weapon.
IF the bane enchantment had been applied to the +5 bow itself, it would operate as an effective +7 bow against its bane targets.
But the scenario has the bane enchantment applied to a +1 arrow, which effectively makes it a +3 arrow which means instead one one enhancement bonus, you have two overlapping ones. the effective +3 enhancemt is overshadowed by the +5 as per the stacking rules for bows and ammunition.
+1 bane arrow is +3 for the purpose of the target and does +2d6. It does not really change into a default +3 arrow, nor lose bane.
Also you missed where I said adding bane twice does not allow for doubling up on damage. I said that because an FAQ said that is how it works. So once again you can bane a weapon twice, but it wont increase the damage.I'm not missing anything. I know that having bane twice doesn't do more damage. And I know it doesn't turn into a +3. That's why it should pass the bane effect onto the +5 from the bow.
if you have a +1 Bane Arrow and a +5 bow you add them up to be a +5 bane effect.
But if it's not a +1 bane arrow, but a +3 arrow that does +2d6 damage, then it's no longer a bane arrow and you'd be able to add bane to that from the bow.
The fact that you can't stack bane I feel supports that it becomes a +5 bane effect.
+1 bane arrow and +5 bane bow = +5 bane bane effect, banes don't stack and you're at a +5 bane effect.
I already explained that. The rules say the bow passes properties to the arrow. The rules do not say the arrow passes anything to the bow.
And bane doesn't provide an enhancement bonus, it provides a +2 bonus to an enhancement bonus.
Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus.An enhancement to an enhancement bonus don't exist. As the property say, it increase the enchanted weapon bonus by +2. So the arrow is +3.
The bane ability of the inquisitor give the bane ability to the weapon. A weapon enchanted with greater magic weapon has an enhancement bonus, that of greater magic weapon (if it is greater than the bonus of the weapon), so the bane ability do (again) what it say. It increase the weapon enhancement bonus of the weapon.
You instead are trying to do something different. You take an item that has its enhancement bonus, the +3 from the base +1 and bane, a rule that say "Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies." and try to bypass the text that say that "Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies" saying that you will take the +1, apply the +5 from the bow and then apply the other enhancement of the arrow.
It don't work that way. You have 2 different enhancements and will take the higher. Nothing more.
An untyped bonus to an enhancement bonus can, and does exist. That is exactly what the bane property does. If it didn't stack, then a +1 bane arrow would become +2, not +3 when the bane activated, which is clearly not the case.
For some reason, you seem to think that the enhancement bonus has to be built in and permanent to the weapon with the bane property. But that is a made up requirement.
Here are some ways a weapon can get an enhancement bonus:
Enchanted permanently
Spell
Class Ability (Magus arcane pool, Paladin bonded weapon etc.)
Ammunition bestowed from a projectile weapon
All of these provide exactly the same type of bonus, and with the exception of something specifically written (such as greater magic weapon not overcoming damage resistance) they are exactly the same and follow exactly the same rules. In any of the above cases, the best enhancement bonus on the weapon can be effected by the Bane property, adding +2 to that enhancement bonus.
I already explained that. The rules say the bow passes properties to the arrow. The rules do not say the arrow passes anything to the bow.
Arrow doesn't need to give anything to the bow. With our +5 bow and a +1 bane arrow, the bow gives the arrow a +5 enhancement bonus. Bane adds +2 to the arrows enhancement bonus, which, thanks to the bow, is +5.
I already explained that. The rules say the bow passes properties to the arrow. The rules do not say the arrow passes anything to the bow.Arrow doesn't need to give anything to the bow. With our +5 bow and a +1 bane arrow, the bow gives the arrow a +5 enhancement bonus. Bane adds +2 to the arrows enhancement bonus, which, thanks to the bow, is +5.
Ok, I can agree with that(result), but ChessPawn's "how" was still off.
Ok, I can agree with that(result), but ChessPawn's "how" was still off.I already explained that. The rules say the bow passes properties to the arrow. The rules do not say the arrow passes anything to the bow.Arrow doesn't need to give anything to the bow. With our +5 bow and a +1 bane arrow, the bow gives the arrow a +5 enhancement bonus. Bane adds +2 to the arrows enhancement bonus, which, thanks to the bow, is +5.
This is what I feel it is.
if you have a +1 Bane Arrow and a +5 bow you add them up to be a +5 bane effect.
Someone above commented saying when you shoot the arrow it's not a +1 bane arrow anymore but a +3 arrow that did 2d6 extra damage. I was responding to that idea with all the extra stuff I was saying.
I don't understand why you guys are trying to apply the Bane before the bow is even fired. It is a +5 Bane arrow guys, not a +1 Bane arrow that then turns into a +5 'something not quite bane' arrow.
You have come up with this idea that the bane property applies first without anything to back that up. You are coming up with the most convoluted answer when the simple answer is "it is a +5 <insert special property> arrow".
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And bane doesn't provide an enhancement bonus, it provides a +2 bonus to an enhancement bonus.
Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus.An enhancement to an enhancement bonus don't exist. As the property say, it increase the enchanted weapon bonus by +2. So the arrow is +3.
The bane ability of the inquisitor give the bane ability to the weapon. A weapon enchanted with greater magic weapon has an enhancement bonus, that of greater magic weapon (if it is greater than the bonus of the weapon), so the bane ability do (again) what it say. It increase the weapon enhancement bonus of the weapon.
You instead are trying to do something different. You take an item that has its enhancement bonus, the +3 from the base +1 and bane, a rule that say "Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies." and try to bypass the text that say that "Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies" saying that you will take the +1, apply the +5 from the bow and then apply the other enhancement of the arrow.
It don't work that way. You have 2 different enhancements and will take the higher. Nothing more.
An untyped bonus to an enhancement bonus can, and does exist. That is exactly what the bane property does. If it didn't stack, then a +1 bane arrow would become +2, not +3 when the bane activated, which is clearly not the case.
For some reason, you seem to think that the enhancement bonus has to be built in and permanent to the weapon with the bane property. But that is a made up requirement.
Here are some ways a weapon can get an enhancement bonus:
Enchanted permanently
Spell
Class Ability (Magus arcane pool, Paladin bonded weapon etc.)
Ammunition bestowed from a...
Read it:
Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus.
It is not an untyped bonus. It change the enhancement of the weapon.
I don't understand why people are trying to resolve properties before the attack is even rolled.
Because we're trying to calculate the attack bonus?
To me it becomes a +3 arrow when used against the undead, which doesn't stack with the bow's enhancement bonus.
The intended order of resolution is unclear to me, but in game balance terms, a +7 enhancement bonus shouldn't be that easy to get. It's easy for a high level character to carry around a wide variety of bane arrows. Archers have enough advantages over melee characters already.
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...a +7 enhancement bonus shouldn't be that easy to get. It's easy for a high level character to carry around a wide variety of bane arrows. Archers have enough advantages over melee characters already.
Well, a full batch (50) Bane Arrows is only 8302 for a single enemy type, which you can split up however you want (if your GM allows it. Part of the balance of Society play I suppose).
So then you get your +5 bow for 50k and convince your GM to let you strap multiple quivers up, cause you're expending one for every shot (of which you're probably at 4-5 a round) and you've got a full 10 rounds of arrows and have to spend another 8302.
A +5 Scimitar for the Magus is also 50k. At the level you would have that, a single point of your arcane pool is probably adding +3 or more, for a minute worth of attacks, many times a day.
A +5 Furious Greatsword for a barbarian would be 72k, but now you're at +7 practically all day long (your rage rounds * attacks per round probably make up for that 22k sooner than you think).
+7 is easy to get, once everyone has that 50k lying around.
Read it:
PRD wrote:
Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus.
It is not an untyped bonus. It change the enhancement of the weapon.
I did. Bane is providing +2. What that +2 is is not specified, i.e. untyped. It is providing that bonus to the enhancement bonus of the weapon. So a +1 (enhancement bonus) gets +2 (untyped) and becomes +3.
If bane gave the weapon a +2 enhancement bonus to hit and damage, then it wouldn't stack with any other enhancement bonus to hit and damage that the weapon already had. So a +1 undead bane arrow would only be +2 vs undead. This is not how it works, and that is because the +2 to the enhancement bonus is an untyped bonus.
Matthew Downie, your order of resolution means that the Bane is being resolved before the target is even decided.
Any arrow placed in the +5 bow is automatically a +5 arrow. That is why it should be first.
But, I think you hit the nail on the head, I think this is more about people not liking the arrow having +7 than it actually being resolved in that order.
Frankly, if you think +7 should be that hard to get you should look at certain Channel Energy feats. My clerics regularly give out bane (to the archer) at the start of a battle for the low low cost of 1 use of channel energy (and 2 feats).
Want Bane for the particular creature we are fighting? Don't want to pay for Bane arrows? Here you go!
Bane is easy to add. Your method would just make one option pointlessly annoying.