question about Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)


Rules Questions


as i understand it it reduces the penalties for fighting with weapons in both hands. what i wana know is can a person fight with two different ranged weapons? take my character it focus on throwing bombs and shooting arrows. later on i plan on shooting arrows that explode. but could i after throwing that bomb reach back and pull an arrow and let loose an arrow to hurt whats left standing for now with two-weapon fighting? like running into a room firing a gun then pulling the pin from a grenade with your teeth and throwing it (yup i know i reversed the actions). would that be a good reason to take two weapon fighting for a person that is a mid range "fighter"? not really a fighter but a person that uses ranged weapons in a fight up close(20-30 feet or 3-5 squares) not three hills away.


You can certainly fight with two ranged weapons, however you must only use two 'hands' worth of effort when two-weapon fighting. Thus, you cannot throw a bomb and then shoot from a bow, because the bow takes two hands to fire (and you've already used one of those hands for the bomb). You could instead throw another bomb, or throw a knife, or fire a one-handed crossbow.

If you are throwing alchemist bombs more specifically, you must get the fast bombs discovery before you can two-weapon fight with bombs. Before that they are their own standard action.


That being said, if you have Quick Draw and an iterative attack, You could throw a bomb and then shoot a bow with the iterative attack.


HOLD THE PRESSES! !

Just remembered that you can TWF with a bow and bombs... if you get the vestigial arm discovery.


Secret Wizard wrote:

HOLD THE PRESSES! !

Just remembered that you can TWF with a bow and bombs... if you get the vestigial arm discovery.

Doesn't work. to determine if an attack is valid you have to be able to do it without vestigial arms, since it doesn't grant you more attacks. If you can't throw something and then use a bow without vestigial arms, then you can't with vestigial arms as it doesn't change if you can.


what is an Iterative attack?


The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round,

though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). (don't have big freaking arrows.... so yea.)

The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb).

so yea secret wizard makes a lot of win points in my book.

now i just need to figure out how many discoveries i need to make my magic using bomb throwing commando. then convince my dm who is running a low magic world to not have me burn at the stake. even though i do hev... had a little fly Homunculus Familiar.


zainale wrote:
what is an Iterative attack?

Check the base attack bonus progression of any class. You'll notice that once it reaches +6,for example, You get an extra attack at a penalty.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

HOLD THE PRESSES! !

Just remembered that you can TWF with a bow and bombs... if you get the vestigial arm discovery.

Doesn't work. to determine if an attack is valid you have to be able to do it without vestigial arms, since it doesn't grant you more attacks. If you can't throw something and then use a bow without vestigial arms, then you can't with vestigial arms as it doesn't change if you can.

It works. You are not gaining attacks.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

HOLD THE PRESSES! !

Just remembered that you can TWF with a bow and bombs... if you get the vestigial arm discovery.

Doesn't work. to determine if an attack is valid you have to be able to do it without vestigial arms, since it doesn't grant you more attacks. If you can't throw something and then use a bow without vestigial arms, then you can't with vestigial arms as it doesn't change if you can.
It works. You are not gaining attacks.

Yes you are, you're using a weapon that uses 2 hands and a weapon that uses 3 hands. That is three hands worth of attacks. You already have a free hand once you throw your other weapon, so why would vestigial arm change anything? It doesn't. And since it doesn't it doesn't change what you can do it doesn't make you suddenly able to do something you couldn't do.


This has been discussed to death. It cannot be done.

See this thread where I give both the FAQ and developer ruling showing conclusively you cannot do this.


None of the cases in the FAQ apply, and you are not gaining extra attacks.

At +5 BAB, you have: 1 attack.

At +5 BAB and TWF, you have two attacks at -2.

At +5 BAB and TWF, you can put a dagger in each hand. Two attacks.

At +5 BAB and TWF and Vestigial Arm, you can have a great sword and a dagger in the off-hand. Two attacks.

There are no extra attacks, only size of wield is changed.

SKR said he did not intend the discovery to allow you to wield a shield or TWF with a 2H sword and a dagger. However, (unlike anything from any other book) Paizo released a statement saying this works because the cases it proscribes are related to gaining attacks with that extra hand, not using it as part of another attack.

Regardless, I'd probably rule in my games that throwing a bomb and shooting a bow is exactly what this was made for.


Secret Wizard wrote:

None of the cases in the FAQ apply, and you are not gaining extra attacks.

At +5 BAB, you have: 1 attack.

At +5 BAB and TWF, you have two attacks at -2.

At +5 BAB and TWF, you can put a dagger in each hand. Two attacks.

At +5 BAB and TWF and Vestigial Arm, you can have a great sword and a dagger in the off-hand. Two attacks.

There are no extra attacks, only size of wield is changed.

SKR said he did not intend the discovery to allow you to wield a shield or TWF with a 2H sword and a dagger. However, (unlike anything from any other book) Paizo released a statement saying this works because the cases it proscribes are related to gaining attacks with that extra hand, not using it as part of another attack.

Regardless, I'd probably rule in my games that throwing a bomb and shooting a bow is exactly what this was made for.

How is this any different to two greatswords with two vestigal arms, which is stated as explicitly not allowed by the dev responsible for the text?

Where is this official paizo statement you refer to? I gave my sources and nothing suggested in the slightest (in fact, pretty clearly did not allow) this interaction.


The FAQ says you can't 2wf with a 2h weapon, and vestigial arms doesn't change that. a 2H weapon takes 2 hands worth of attacks to use, thus combining it with another weapon doesn't work.
For attack routine, if you can't do it without vestigial arms you can't do it with. Nothing is different than using a Greatsword and a kick or a dagger and a bow with out vestigial arms.

Now holding things is fine. If you hold a shield and don't attack you're okay, no extra attacks.


Blakmane wrote:
Where is this official paizo statement you refer to? I gave my sources and nothing suggested in the slightest (in fact, pretty clearly did not allow) this interaction.

Be careful with Secret Wizard. His official doesn't really match up with most other's people's definition of official.


Excluding the vestigal arm debate, you cannot throw a bomb with one hand, then use quickdraw to move it over to a 2 handed weapon in the same turn. Some crossbows give the option to fire one-handed at a -4 penalty to attack. However, reloading becomes a problem as that clearly requires 2 hands. If you are serious at throwing bombs and two-weapon fighting, you should look into chakrams - like on Xena Warrior Princess. They have slightly better range than your bombs and they are the cheapest ranged weapons that do decent damage.


When deciding how many attacks you can make, and with what, it's best to *completely* ignore your actual physical hands initially.

Just figure out whether you have enough "hands of effort" to do the attacks you want, which are completely determined based on the weapons you are using, your BAB, and your feats. (but not your physical anatomy of currently wielded gear)

Now that you know how many and what types of attacks you are allowed to make, you just need to get them into your physical hands at some point so you can actually make the attacks. (be it via quick draw, gloves of storing, or other shenanigans)

In this example, your character is presumably +5 BAB or less, giving him one primary hand and one off-hand attack. If you use a weapon that requires two hands to use (such as a bow), you've consumed both of these hands of effort. You can immediately see that there's none left for any other attacks, even if you somehow get the physical weapon into your hand.


i guess the true question is the composite long bow a light medium or heavy weapon. because anything at a pound is a light weapon and anything thing above 8 pounds is a heavy. the composite bow is 3 pounds. vestigal arm is a whole can of worms i did not know about i have to do some debate reading. where upon i will fall to a side. twf allows you two rush two attacks into one attack at the price of a negative and giving up your move action but allows for a 5 foot adjust,right? both attacks get a -2 assuming composite long bows are also light ranged weapons.(i for the life of me could not find a thing that lists ranged weapons in the L,M,H category).

damn it i lost my thought train... >.>


zainale wrote:

i guess the true question is the composite long bow a light medium or heavy weapon. because anything at a pound is a light weapon and anything thing above 8 pounds is a heavy. the composite bow is 3 pounds. vestigal arm is a whole can of worms i did not know about i have to do some debate reading. where upon i will fall to a side. twf allows you two rush two attacks into one attack at the price of a negative and giving up your move action but allows for a 5 foot adjust,right? both attacks get a -2 assuming composite long bows are also light ranged weapons.(i for the life of me could not find a thing that lists ranged weapons in the L,M,H category).

damn it i lost my thought train... >.>

Anything that isn't specifically in the category "light weapon" isn't a light weapon. No projectile weapon is light, for example, not even revolvers, because only melee weapons are ever categorized as "light".


so i use the bow in my main hand and use the bombs in my off hand.

or

one hand to hold the bow another to hold the bomb and the third to draw the string back and hold the arrow in place/letting go of the combo.

problem solved?


Weapon category is in no way determined by weight, although there is a correlation.

Quote:
Projectile Weapons: Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions).

Further, from the description of the longbow:

Quote:
You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size.

Thus, most projectile weapons require two hands to use, and the longbow is no exception.

As Casual Viking has pointed out, bows are not light, one-handed, or two-handed weapons. Those categorizes are reserved for melee weapons.

However, bows still require two hands to operate, and thus consume your primary and off-hand's worth of effort.


zainale wrote:

so i use the bow in my main hand and use the bombs in my off hand.

or

one hand to hold the bow another to hold the bomb and the third to draw the string back and hold the arrow in place/letting go of the combo.

problem solved?

Read my earlier post...

If you're trying to attack with a bow and a bomb, using the bow requires one primary hand and off-hand's worth of effort. To also throw the bomb, you need an additional primary hand or off-hand's worth of effort.

Unless you have a way to get an extra hand's worth of effort, it doesn't matter if you can physically wield, hold, or operate the weapons. You don't have enough "hands of effort" to make any additional attacks.

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