Given that undead are immune to morale effects, could you intimidate...
...an allip?
...a wraith?
...a vampire?
Is intimidate a morale effect? I understand there are morale bonuses from various sources, but is it simply intended that the undead are immune to receiving morale bonuses?
Given that undead are immune to morale effects, could you intimidate...
...an allip?
...a wraith?
...a vampire?
Is intimidate a morale effect? I understand there are morale bonuses from various sources, but is it simply intended that the undead are immune to receiving morale bonuses?
'Undead are immune to death effects, disease, mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, phantasms, and patterns)"
"Intimidate to demoralize is indeed a fear effect, and thus creatures immune to fear or mind-affecting effects can't be demoralized by this skill"
*http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here
Intimidating to demoralize is specifically a fear effect.
Intimidating to temporarily change attitude is not specifically described as a fear effect. There isn't anything specifically prohibiting one from attempting to use Intimidate to change, say, a vampire's attitude.
A GM might rule otherwise, of course, or require the one doing the intimidating to have demonstrated immunity to the vampire's powers first.
So Intimidate is undefined regarding non-demoralizing uses. When there is no game definition, we turn to the dictionary:
Intimidate
verb
1. to make timid; fill with fear.
2. to overawe or cow, as through the force of personality or by superior display of wealth, talent, etc.
3. to force into or deter from some action by inducing fear:
to intimidate a voter into staying away from the polls.
2/3 of that definition is "fear". The other 1/3 might be based on the fighter's talent (furiwaza, showing off his awesome fightery moves) but probably not personality or wealth (undead aren't likely to care about that).
So if the argument is "The fighter whirls his blade around in a superior display of talent but doesn't induce fear or make the undead timid", well, then I suppose the undead might be affected. Otherwise, the more reasonable definition is based on fear and won't work on undead.
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I houserule that intelligent undead are not immune to mind-affecting effects. My rationale is that they have a mind, therefore it should be able to be targeted.
But as far as RAW goes, undead are immune to demoralizing from intimidation and arguably immune to the social responses of intimidation.
Dirge motherf#~~ing Bard can motherf%+*ing intimidate undead by playing a motherf#+&ing pipe organ.
So Intimidate is undefined regarding non-demoralizing uses. When there is no game definition, we turn to the dictionary:
2/3 of that definition is "fear". The other 1/3 might be based on the fighter's talent (furiwaza, showing off his awesome fightery moves) but probably not personality or wealth (undead aren't likely to care about that).
I'm not sure I buy this. Intelligent undead aren't subject to moral-effect, of which fear effects are a subset, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can't feel fear in the ordinary English usage of the word.
If an undead's attitude could be adjusted by Diplomacy (even though they are immune to charm magic) then I don't see why it couldn't be adjusted by Intimidate even though they are immune to fear effects. A vampire might not feel the paralyzing fear that a living creature does, but they surely could desire to continue their existence and can behave in a cautious manner.
I certainly think that some undead, even intelligent undead, would be immune to any attempt at intimidate or diplomacy, but I wouldn't consider it a blanket rule.
(and intelligent undead can be just as desirous of wealth or impressed by a personality as anyone else)
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Dirge motherf*!#ing Bard can motherf#+!ing intimidate undead by playing a motherf$$@ing pipe organ.
If you're strong enough to carry a pipe organ into a dungeon and play it while fighting I'd be pretty intimidated by you, too.
Dirge motherf*!#ing Bard can motherf#+!ing intimidate undead by playing a motherf$$@ing pipe organ.If you're strong enough to carry a pipe organ into a dungeon and play it while fighting I'd be pretty intimidated by you, too.
Barnabaeous the big beefy bard of Barrington.
I remember a player who was playing a bard and only trained pipe organ, then used summon instrument to crush enemies. It was a rules-light game so we weren't too concerned about the legality of it, but it was damn hilarious.
So Intimidate is undefined regarding non-demoralizing uses. When there is no game definition, we turn to the dictionary:
2/3 of that definition is "fear". The other 1/3 might be based on the fighter's talent (furiwaza, showing off his awesome fightery moves) but probably not personality or wealth (undead aren't likely to care about that).
I'm not sure I buy this. Intelligent undead aren't subject to moral-effect, of which fear effects are a subset, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can't feel fear in the ordinary English usage of the word.
If an undead's attitude could be adjusted by Diplomacy (even though they are immune to charm magic) then I don't see why it couldn't be adjusted by Intimidate even though they are immune to fear effects. A vampire might not feel the paralyzing fear that a living creature does, but they surely could desire to continue their existence and can behave in a cautious manner.
I certainly think that some undead, even intelligent undead, would be immune to any attempt at intimidate or diplomacy, but I wouldn't consider it a blanket rule.
(and intelligent undead can be just as desirous of wealth or impressed by a personality as anyone else)
Maybe.
Or the undead's lack of a circulatory system prevents the amygdala from sending glutaamate into the bloodstream. Without that, there is no jump reflex and there is no fight or flight reflex. Without those reflexes being triggered, then the fear is just a meaningless state of mind. The undead might thing "gosh, I'm afraid" but would have no forced reflex actions that are impelled by that fear, so it could and would freely continue doing whatever it wanted to, just like it did before someone tried to intimidate it.
In short, immunity, even for the intelligent undead.
Obviously, the RAW doesn't go into such details. It just says they're immune to mind-influencing effects. Intimidate is not an elbow-influencing effect; it's obviously a mind-influencing effect. That should be all you need to know.
Dirge motherf*!#ing Bard can motherf#+!ing intimidate undead by playing a motherf$$@ing pipe organ.If you're strong enough to carry a pipe organ into a dungeon and play it while fighting I'd be pretty intimidated by you, too.
I now have a new character for Carrion Crown.
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I now have a new character for Carrion Crown.Dirge motherf*!#ing Bard can motherf#+!ing intimidate undead by playing a motherf$$@ing pipe organ.If you're strong enough to carry a pipe organ into a dungeon and play it while fighting I'd be pretty intimidated by you, too.
Don't forget Rough and Ready to use your shovel as a weapon.
PS: You are an undertaker too.
Or the undead's lack of a circulatory system prevents the amygdala from sending glutaamate into the bloodstream. Without that, there is no jump reflex and there is no fight or flight reflex. Without those reflexes being triggered, then the fear is just a meaningless state of mind. The undead might thing "gosh, I'm afraid" but would have no forced reflex actions that are impelled by that fear, so it could and would freely continue doing whatever it wanted to, just like it did before someone tried to intimidate it.
In short, immunity, even for the intelligent undead.
Obviously, the RAW doesn't go into such details. It just says they're immune to mind-influencing effects. Intimidate is not an elbow-influencing effect; it's obviously a mind-influencing effect. That should be all you need to know.
I've taken advanced physiology, and there is exactly one thing I can tell you for certain. Do not try to justify magic with science. Ever. It ends in madness 100% of the time.
You know why undead can still function but don't have normal brain functions? Magic. That is the only logical answer.
Thanks for the responses.
After I asked this question I realized that using Intimidate to demoralize an opponent is indeed a morale effect.
However, I would rule that vampires could be demoralized...maybe. I guess I would make this ruling because, as undead go, vampires come very close to being just like the rest of us among the living.
Or the undead's lack of a circulatory system prevents the amygdala from sending glutaamate into the bloodstream. Without that, there is no jump reflex and there is no fight or flight reflex. Without those reflexes being triggered, then the fear is just a meaningless state of mind. The undead might thing "gosh, I'm afraid" but would have no forced reflex actions that are impelled by that fear, so it could and would freely continue doing whatever it wanted to, just like it did before someone tried to intimidate it.
In short, immunity, even for the intelligent undead.
Obviously, the RAW doesn't go into such details. It just says they're immune to mind-influencing effects. Intimidate is not an elbow-influencing effect; it's obviously a mind-influencing effect. That should be all you need to know.
I've taken advanced physiology, and there is exactly one thing I can tell you for certain. Do not try to justify magic with science. Ever. It ends in madness 100% of the time.
You know why undead can still function but don't have normal brain functions? Magic. That is the only logical answer.
I totally agree. I was just proposing one rationalization why it's possible to think and be intelligent (as an undead) but still be immune to fear. Having sentience doesn't require having ordinary fear vulnerability especially when other body functions are clearly altered. Magic overrides all, obviously, but it doesn't HAVE to be in such a way that making you sentient MUST also make you fearable.
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Per this FAQ, all undead are immune to intimidate unless you have an ability that says otherwise.
You are free to house rule differently.
You can't demoralize them through the use of Intimidate but if an intelligent undead sees an overwhelming display of power, they might be deterred from fighting for the sake of self preservation.