Ok, say i have an 11th level Mutation Warrior fighter who has taken vestigial arm twice and has retrained Two-Weapon Fighting into Multi-Weapon Fighting. Can he now use 2 two-handed weapons with Multi-Weapon Fighting?
nope, and you still can't use more than 2wf with your vestigial arms. sorry.
No. Vestigal arms do not grant extra attacks or actions. When two-weapon or multi-weapon fighting, you still have a primary attack and an "off-hand" attack (one each). Each two-handed weapon requires a primary and an off-hand. You have multiple physical hands, but no more "hands of effort".
If you had enough BAB for interative attacks, you COULD attack with one two-handed weapon for your first interative, and with the other as the second interative.
nope, and you still can't use more than 2wf with your vestigial arms. sorry.
why can't you use multi-weapon fighting with vestigial arms? is there an errata or FAQ that i missed?
Vestigial Arms
The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting).Multi-weapon fighting
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
from this it seems like you could use multi-weapon fighting with vestigial arms (obviously only if you have the BAB for it)
I see the reason why you can't use two two-handed weapons (you only have a single primary hand with multi-weapon fighting)
EDIT: also this isn't for PFS
Three people say you're wrong and you still don't believe. Oh well, here's the FAQ
Alchemist, Tentacle/Vestigial Arm: What does "extra attacks" mean for these discoveries?
It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery."
For example, if you're low-level alchemist who uses two-weapon fighting, you can normally make two attacks per round (one with each weapon). If you take the tentacle discovery, on your turn you can make
* two weapon attacks but no tentacle attack,
* a weapon attack with your left hand plus a secondary tentacle attack, or
* a weapon attack with your right hand plus a secondary tentacle attack.
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a tentacle attack on the same turn because the tentacle discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round." This language is calling out that the tentacle is not a standard natural weapon and doesn't follow the standard rules for using natural weapons (which would normally allow you to make the natural weapon attack in addition to your other attacks).
Likewise, if you instead took the vestigial arm discovery and put a weapon in that arm's hand, on your turn you can make
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your right hand,
* a weapon attack with your right hand and one with your vestigial arm, or
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your vestigial arm,
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn because the vestigial arm discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round."
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons.
Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists.
So you can't make any more attacks then you could have without the discovery. Using a 2handed weapon is attacking with 2 hands, now your hands without the discovery are full and you can't attack with any other weapons. This is also why you can't multi-weapon fight.
TLDR - When it comes to weapons and attacks, ignore your vestigial arms when determining what you can do.
Actually, the limitation of "Main hand and an off hand" required for a two handed weapon is debatable.
Existing characters do two weapon fight with two two-handed weapons
Kasatha, while multi-armed, have the same limitations of attacks per round as a 2x vestigial arm character.
That said, the above postings about vestigial arm regarding extra attacks hold true: you can still only two weapon fight, not multiweapon fight.
Kasatha have different rules than vestigial arms. They have 4 fully functional arms.
Kasatha have different rules than vestigial arms. They have 4 fully functional arms.
Multi-Armed: A kasatha has four arms. One hand is considered its primary hand; all others are considered off hands. It can use any of its hands for other purposes that require free hands. (4 arms; 8 RP)
Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).
They are functionally identical. One just uses much less word count.
Three people say you're wrong and you still don't believe. Oh well, here's the FAQ
That was an unnecessary statement given that I was asking for clarification of the people who were saying I was wrong without citing sources. Thanks for the FAQ link, i hadn't seen that.
However, this FAQ doesn't seem to rule out attacking with a two-handed weapon in two hands and a one-handed weapon in my vestigial arm's hand as I am not taking any more actions than I would have with 2 one-handed weapons and TWF.
They are not functionally identical. There is a FAQ explicitly clarifying the rules language which itself explicitly states that you cannot make extra attacks using vestigial arms.
Whether some posters like it or not, there is a metaphysical concept of effort rolled up into how a creature wields weapons. A 2-armed creature with two vestigial arms does not function the same way as a naturally 4-armed creature. Wielding two two-handed weapons will run afoul of the restrictions on effort and the concept of vestigial arms granting "extra" attacks (in this case, extra attack equivalency in the guise of using larger than normally allowed weapons for TWF).
Vestigial arms aren't off-hands, they don't give attacks. Kasatha having full arms that provide off-hands can give more attacks.
Three people say you're wrong and you still don't believe. Oh well, here's the FAQ
That was an unnecessary statement given that I was asking for clarification of the people who were saying I was wrong without citing sources. Thanks for the FAQ link, i hadn't seen that.
However, this FAQ doesn't seem to rule out attacking with a two-handed weapon in two hands and a one-handed weapon in my vestigial arm as I am not taking any more actions than I would have with 2 one-handed weapons and TWF.
Funny thing is, that FAQ was pulled from a thread five years ago (holy crap, it's been so long!) which never actually addressed the very issue you seek to have addressed (as I noted five years ago...)
link HEREIt is noted that dual wielding two-handers was not the intention, but RAW, it functions.
Is there a written rule about hands? (I mean about the actual things attached to a characters arms, im not asking about the metaphysical ones right now)
They are not functionally identical. There is a FAQ explicitly clarifying the rules language which itself explicitly states that you cannot make extra attacks using vestigial arms.
Whether some posters like it or not, there is a metaphysical concept of effort rolled up into how a creature wields weapons. A 2-armed creature with two vestigial arms does not function the same way as a naturally 4-armed creature. Wielding two two-handed weapons will run afoul of the restrictions on effort and the concept of vestigial arms granting "extra" attacks (in this case, extra attack equivalency in the guise of using larger than normally allowed weapons for TWF).
This is not an extra attack. It is two weapon fighting.
Greatsword in Right hand/stumpy arm 1.
Greatsword in Left hand/Stumpy arm 2.
There is, to the best of my knowledge, NOTHING preventing you from wielding a bigger or smaller weapon in your off hand.
A normal two armed individual may attack with the short sword in their left as their main, then the longsword in their right as their off.
It's even stated that you may do so, switching which attack is main and which is off when you make your attack.
What you ARE limited to is attacks per round.
With the Two Weapon Fighting feat, you get your main and your off. 2 attacks.
That's what you get.
no rules the actual hands, only metaphysical ones, because those are the only ones that actually matter to the rules. Just talk to your GM about it. If it is for PFS you have to go with the metaphysical rules.
they stick to the metaphysical ones because now the question is what kind of damage do you do with a two-handed weapon in the off hand. 1.5 str damage or .5 str damage. it stop that question from even happening.
they go out of the way to make sure only in extreme or specifically called out ways can get a person get x2 ability score to damage.
that what it really is all about.
fair enough
also Lord Twitchiopolis there IS something that disqualifies you from wielding big stuff in one hand, its the rules telling you what is a one-handed weapon and what is a two-handed weapon
the one-handed weapon rule(and the light weapon rule, and the unarmed strike rule) specifically states that one-handed weapons may be wielded in either the primary or off hands, whereas the two-handed weapon rule does not say a two-handed weapon may be used in the off hand
EDIT: Weapons scroll down to the rules defining one-handed and two-handed weapons
I think they final fixed titan mauler and titan fighter archetypes to allow you to use large two handed weapon with two handed.
At least on the PFSRD the titan mauler says the weapon must be appropriately sized for your character to qualify for jotungrip.
But thats what im talking about, the rule and the FAQ for vestigial arms only say that you cannot gain extra attacks or actions with the arm. As in, they are only concerned with the actual number of actions and say nothing about the type of actions. Thats why I say you can use a two-handed weapon in two hands and a one-handed weapon in your third hand and still TWF; you have not changed the number of actions/attacks that are being taken
There's a developer clarification about vestigial arms saying you can't twf with greatswords. I don't want to go hunting for it. Unfortunately you're dealing with the unwritten rules so of course there's nothing written to show you that it's not allowed ;)
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Three people say you're wrong and you still don't believe. Oh well, here's the FAQ
I have had upwards of 200 people tell me I was wrong on forums before, only to have the developers step in and prove me right. No one can ever be truly certain of anything.
There's a developer clarification about vestigial arms saying you can't twf with greatswords. I don't want to go hunting for it. Unfortunately you're dealing with the unwritten rules so of course there's nothing written to show you that it's not allowed ;)
Do you remember the thread topic (if not the actual title)? Thats exactly the kind of thing im looking for here, I'll go look for it since ive got some time
if they aren't written then why are people saying they trump RAW? isnt the entire point of this forum that we are looking for RAW answers?
There's a developer clarification about vestigial arms saying you can't twf with greatswords. I don't want to go hunting for it. Unfortunately you're dealing with the unwritten rules so of course there's nothing written to show you that it's not allowed ;)Do you remember the thread topic (if not the actual title)? Thats exactly the kind of thing im looking for here, I'll go look for it since ive got some time
if they aren't written then why are people saying they trump RAW? isnt the entire point of this forum that we are looking for RAW answers?
These forums are about looking for "Official" answers. So even though they aren't written in the book, they were official statements, and thus they matter.
because the Metaphysical rules are written, via FAQS, but no where in 6 prints of core rule book have they actual been printed. So if you never look at the FAQs you never know these rules exist.
So they are in fact written, just not in the books, in that case its just a misnomer and should definitely be called something else with so many nit-picky, semantics minded people hanging around this forum lol.
EDIT: we should never call them unwritten, say instead that they are supplemental rules
They also aren't written out plainly like, "You only have two hands of effort." or "You have two metaphorical hands." They are written "If you use a 2hw you don't have an off-hand to 2wf with." and then in there's a few clarification posts. The fact that they aren't written in any books are why they are unwritten rules.
Three people say you're wrong and you still don't believe. Oh well, here's the FAQI have had upwards of 200 people tell me I was wrong on forums before, only to have the developers step in and prove me right. No one can ever be truly certain of anything.
its a logical fallacy called the appeal to popularity, it pops up a lot around here and i mostly ignore it now unless there is no other way to find an answer (read unless the devs/GMs never step in)
They also aren't written out plainly like, "You only have two hands of effort." or "You have two metaphorical hands." They are written "If you use a 2hw you don't have an off-hand to 2wf with." and then in there's a few clarification posts. The fact that they aren't written in any books are why they are unwritten rules.
yeah i get it, all im saying is that we should re-brand it to clarify since one of the main markers of "rightness" on this forum is literally "rules as written"
They are not functionally identical. There is a FAQ explicitly clarifying the rules language which itself explicitly states that you cannot make extra attacks using vestigial arms.
Whether some posters like it or not, there is a metaphysical concept of effort rolled up into how a creature wields weapons. A 2-armed creature with two vestigial arms does not function the same way as a naturally 4-armed creature. Wielding two two-handed weapons will run afoul of the restrictions on effort and the concept of vestigial arms granting "extra" attacks (in this case, extra attack equivalency in the guise of using larger than normally allowed weapons for TWF).
This is not an extra attack. It is two weapon fighting.
Greatsword in Right hand/stumpy arm 1.
Greatsword in Left hand/Stumpy arm 2.There is, to the best of my knowledge, NOTHING preventing you from wielding a bigger or smaller weapon in your off hand.
A normal two armed individual may attack with the short sword in their left as their main, then the longsword in their right as their off.
It's even stated that you may do so, switching which attack is main and which is off when you make your attack.What you ARE limited to is attacks per round.
With the Two Weapon Fighting feat, you get your main and your off. 2 attacks.
That's what you get.
It's the metaphysical hands thing. I understand the point being made. It's not about an actual extra attack being made, it's about (for lack of a better phrasing) the extra attack that is equivalently made by effort.
Two-handed weapons and two-weapon fighting are supposed to be, essentially, equal. They both constitute the same "effort" (this is where we get into the metaphysical hands). You cannot attack with two greatswords because it is, in essence, the same as attacking with four shortswords (in effort). If you cannot attack with four shortswords, it is unfair to allow you to attack with two greatswords.
However, if you're going to house rule to allow it (which is obviously none of my concern), you ought to follow the one main hand, three off hand guide. So only one greatsword gets 1.5 STR and +3 PA bonuses; the other should be the equivalent of two off hand weapons (so 1 STR and +2 PA bonuses).
They also aren't written out plainly like, "You only have two hands of effort." or "You have two metaphorical hands." They are written "If you use a 2hw you don't have an off-hand to 2wf with." and then in there's a few clarification posts. The fact that they aren't written in any books are why they are unwritten rules.yeah i get it, all im saying is that we should re-brand it to clarify since one of the main markers of "rightness" on this forum is literally "rules as written"
The problem is the written word is subject to interpretation, by the very nature of language. Hence there really isn't such a thing as "Rules as Written". There's often a consensus as to the accepted interpretation of the Rules as Written, but not always.
its a logical fallacy called the appeal to popularity, it pops up a lot around here and i mostly ignore it now unless there is no other way to find an answer (read unless the devs/GMs never step in)Three people say you're wrong and you still don't believe. Oh well, here's the FAQI have had upwards of 200 people tell me I was wrong on forums before, only to have the developers step in and prove me right. No one can ever be truly certain of anything.
Appealing to popularity isn't necessarily proof that something must be true. However, that a particular interpretation has been adopted by a number of people who have had the opportunity to analyze the rule is valid support for the acceptance of that interpretation. That doesn't mean it's determinative, but it is relevant. More importantly, this latter instance isn't really an appeal to popularity in the more traditional sense. The argument isn't, "The interpretation is correct because everybody agrees with it". The implied argument is, "A vast majority of people who have analyzed this have come to this conclusion." Subtle, but different.
fretgod99,
Three people say you're wrong and you still don't believe.
This statement is not speaking to the fact that the 3 people have taken the opportunity to analyze the rule, this is simply saying "X number of people are saying youre wrong" which is almost an exact definition of the appeal to popularity
I wasn't trying to say that its totally irrelevant, just that the fact that X number of people think im wrong cannot be the reason[I'm wrong
Ok, say i have an 11th level Mutation Warrior fighter who has taken vestigial arm twice and has retrained Two-Weapon Fighting into Multi-Weapon Fighting. Can he now use 2 two-handed weapons with Multi-Weapon Fighting?The way to achieve this effect is to use an Extract of Monstrous Physique I and turn into a 4-armed Sahaugin.
There is a 3rd party Psionic Class that lets you do this, like the Argent, I think. With 5 levels, you can give yourself 2 extra arms that you can make extra attacks with.
That looks cool, any way to do that as an alchemist?
EDIT: I'm an idiot, its on the alchemist list
Turning into a 4-armed creature wouldn't work either. Even if you allow naturally 4-armed creatures to multiweapon fight (which is debatable for PCs) the multiarmed racial trait is not conferred by polymorph spells.Ok, say i have an 11th level Mutation Warrior fighter who has taken vestigial arm twice and has retrained Two-Weapon Fighting into Multi-Weapon Fighting. Can he now use 2 two-handed weapons with Multi-Weapon Fighting?The way to achieve this effect is to use an Extract of Monstrous Physique I and turn into a 4-armed Sahaugin.
There is a 3rd party Psionic Class that lets you do this, like the Argent, I think. With 5 levels, you can give yourself 2 extra arms that you can make extra attacks with.
You run into the minor issue that the 4 armed creature in question doesn't have the multiarmed racial trait so are you saying it can't use all of it's arms? The Four-Armed Sahuagin Mutant only has Multiweapon Mastery and that doesn't grant it any extra off hands or extra attacks, it just negates "penalties on attack rolls when fighting with multiple weapons".
However, just looking at the Multiweapon Fighting shows that just having 3+ arms grants a primary hand and the rest of the hands count as off hands. [see normal section] The multiarmed racial trait is like elf/orc blooded and is really just restating what you already get as opposed to actually granting you anything.
elf/orc blooded: having the subtypes grants the same thing as is listed under the trait, in essence simply restating it and giving nothing new.