You are aware... Originally... And for many years... There was just the Paladin.
If by "many years" you mean five.
The paladin first appeared in the Greyhawk supplement (1975).The anti-paladin followed in Dragon #39 (1980).
Gygax was interested in a sort of "paladin" very different from traditional paladins, and so AD&D paladins bear little resemblance to the Charlemagne paladins.
Well, indirectly. Gygax pulled the paladin (and the D&D troll) directly from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, which draws on Charlemagne's paladins (specifically Ogier) for inspiration.
snipCouple of problems... A Paladin who falls isn't a Paladin again until they atone. Thus a Paladin, a real one, is assumed by anyone they interact with to be a paragon of virtue.
Literally - If a Paladin is found in the town square standing over a dead body and says, "He was a vile cultist who attacked me."
Then he was. No questions asked.
-----
If a non-paladin wants to "play at" being a Paladin and get similar social benefits then they need the mechanics to back it up.
If they don't have levels in Paladin then they had at least better have a level in the Chevalier PrC.
...So, two questions.
#1 - Let's say I have a character caught in the exact situation you describe and they say "I'm a Paladin, and that man was an evil cultist who assaulted me. I regret having to use lethal force but he gave me no choice", would my character be questioned or asked to prove their identity?
#2 - If you knew for a fact that I was playing a Paladin character, would they still be questioned?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How does one go about proving that they are a member of a "class", which isn't an observable concept in-game? Magic items exist that are only usable by members of the Paladin class, sure, but said items can be fooled, don't even work for all paladins thanks to archetypes, and are prohibitively expensive. The only item that would work for all paladins is the Holy Avenger, but how do people in-game know that the difference between people who can and can't use it to its full potential is due to a "class"? All they'd be able to determine is that some virtuous holy warriors aren't able to use it to its fullest. (As an aside, the DR/Silver test doesn't work because there are many ways to bypass it without using the sword's power that aren't really detectable, such as Penetrating Strike or Ascetic Style)
Paladins in-universe are not even that common - the official wiki describes them as the rarest class in Golarion, likening their organizations to enclaves or monasteries. In areas such as Lastwall or Kenabres where paladins are more common one would assume that people have more specialized knowledge of Paladins and their abilities and yet there is no information backing up such a claim.
In Golarion, Paladins are rare, methods of identifying them are both expensive and unreliable, and even in areas with high Paladin populations people don't know enough to distinguish them from cultists or Antipaladins. There's no proof in-universe that it is even possible let alone something that people would actually know of.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wouldn't one of the gods say "That mortal is doing it right!" and just grant the poor guy paladin abilities? I'm only half serious with this question, but in a world with PF style gods, would there even be fighters who lived by the paladin code and didn't end up as paladins?
You are assuming that being a Paladin is a reward for behavior. That is not necessarily true. It is possible that out of two LG Warriors one is chosen because he will need something to help him keep his faith (the powers of the Paladin, and the threat of their loss should he falter) while the other doesn't need that to remain holy, and so isn't given it. Equally possible is that one is chosen and the other isn't because the one chosen will face extraordinary challenges or is physically weaker (in a point buy this is probably true as the fighter will likely have dumped CHR).
In any event why a God would choose someone to be a Paladin isn't known, but almost certainly it isn't a simple 'reward' for being a good person.
Isn't religion part of being a paladin though? :p
I wonder, of course, how he thinks of other classes having more ways to represent paladin-hood that don't have paladin levels. Rangers, for instance, now have Diety Combat Styles. Their god literally gives them abilities others have to train for. Abilities paladins(the class) don't get.
8. And the least guessable of the bunch, especially when you know he has to be a Core Rulebook class - the archer is actually a wizard. I figured I'd use the elven dex bonus and racial longbow proficiency to give me something different to do at low levels when he doesn't get many spells. So for now, he really is an archer, who happens to have a little magic on the side. Sure, I could have just picked up a wand of Magic Missile like a normal wizard, but why be normal? He does have Point Blank Shot, planning to get Precise Shot at level 3. By level 5+, he'll be casting all the time and rarely use the bow, but those feats will still help with ranged touch spells.
Those racial weapon proficiencies are a real boon to low-level elvish primary casters, aren't they?
Actually, that character sounds like the set-up for a build I came up with a while ago, that uses five Wizard levels, one of Fighter or Ranger, and three of Eldritch Knight to hit the BAB requirement for an Arcane Archer. You take your first AA level at character level 10 instead of 8 (7 combat class levels and one arcane caster level to get to BAB +6 with 1st-level arcane spells), but at that point you're casting fourth-level spells, with an effective caster level of 7; if you do all ten levels of AA, you end up using Imbue Arrow to deliver 7th-level AoE spells to the maximum range of a longbow, which is a hell of a capability to have in mass combat scenarios. It's not a great build for PFS because they only go to level 12, but for some of the AP's ("Kingmaker" comes to mind as one with a lot of outdoor combat and at least some mass battles) it could be awesome.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just out of curiosity, what other mechanical constructs are people aware of in your games HWalsh? They can identify what class someone specifically is, what else? Are they aware of d20 roll? Their specific stats? Levels or leveling up?
What I'm curious about is how long exactly the time frame is between a Paladin beginning to walk off the correct path and actually being stripped of his powers.
Because if the answer is anything other than "Instantaneous", then the logical conclusion is that any given Paladin that you meet that is not actually fallen is either a Paladin who is not in the process of falling or a Paladin who is in the process of falling. So anything a not-fallen Paladin does or says or advocates that others do is suspect, because you don't know that he isn't on his way to falling.
Which then raises the question of whether a Paladin's allotted time to get back on the righteous path is known or not:
"Villagers! There's a horde of demon-worshipping gnolls on the way. You must stand with me and we will drive them back! Who's with me?!"
"Elder! This alleged Paladin has just requested our aid against a horde of gnolls. What's the Estimated Fall Time if he's not on the up-and-up?"
"It depends. If he's lying about the threat, then it should be one minute, forty seconds. On the other hand, if it's a legitimate threat, but he's partially motivated by revenge, then we could be looking at an EFT of as much as five minutes, twenty-one seconds. Boy! Go to the Time-keeper and time out five-and-one-half minutes. If you do and this maybe-falling Paladin doesn't fall, then we will heed his word."
"..."
"So Marqa, I heard the Healer had to visit your daughter earlier this week. Is she okay?"
"She's still in bed, but her fever's gone down"
"That's good."
"What are you people doing?! I am a Paladin, and I have warned you of an impending threat?!"
"Shut up, Mr. Possibly-Falling-Paladin!"
"Uh-oh. I just realized we might have a problem. He could be telling the truth and not be motivated by base desires, but still be leading us astray."
"How so?"
"He could lead us to defend our village, only to inspire vigilance to the point of paranoia at the expense of mercy. And that doesn't result in a fall until well over a month later."
"Huh. Well, there's nothing for it. We'll have to have someone watch him for a month, then."
And that's only if Fall Times are longer than Instantaneous but still predictable. If they're subject to countless other factors (and considering that I expect the Ultimate Cosmic force of Good to be so far beyond human comprehension that we're untold epochs away from even being mitochondria in comparison), then the time between a Paladin beginning to stray and a Paladin actually falling cannot be known.
If so, then the only way to know for sure that whatever you've seen a Paladin say or do or advocate wasn't said or done or advocated by a Paladin in the process of falling is to follow him like a stalker until the day he dies. If he dies with his powers intact, then you know he was always on the up-and-up.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Since someone(s) requested to keep this Golarion based, I went and broke out Faiths of Purity to refresh my memory and you know .. paladins of different Gods have different codes, some of which clash against each other!
Which paladin should we listen to? The paladin of Torag wants us to show no mercy against his people's enemies while Shelyn almost always shows mercy, believing anyone can be redeemed. Which is more "right"?
Religion, at least that in-game, can have a serious effect on what goes on. I recall an old article in the Dragon supposing that paladin's of opposing orders might fight against each other, both sure that the other is wrong.
If paladin are rare -- and LuniasM showed us above that they are, and they've never been overly plentiful in most world's lore (it's a hard road) -- then how would people know outside of what they think might be a paladin? Do they have a guide book? Watch an episode of Jaywalking or whichever other person is currently asking questions of the man on the street in the US, a country with schools that they all but force you to attend. People are shockingly out of touch with "common" information in the Information Age.
Now remove computers, and Internet and smartphones and TV. I'd think you are going to get some variation on what a paladin is supposed to be.
To draw on a close relative idea of the paladin, I've been rereading the Herald books from Mercedes Lackey. (SPOILERS!) The Heralds work for the kingdom and are picked by basically divine representatives in horse form. It's complicated. In any event, they are supposed to be good people and do good. They represent the crown's power and truth and goodness and the laws. They people know this and yet still doubt them in place, despite their reputation for the truth and purity. People still try to duplicate them, often for their own means, because they think that if they have some white clothes and a white horse they can pull it off. And yes, the Heralds go looking to see who is using their name, if they get time, and put a stop to it. And in at least once case, brought the person into the fold and gave them a job.
There are a lot of ways to play a paladin, just like there are a lot of ways to play anything. Jumping up and down and declaring that if you don't have the class you don't qualify sets this one class on a pedestal that it really doesn't deserve. The Gods have lots of ways to show their hands to the faithful and may not always do it in a brightly glowing armoured package with lay on hands, you know?
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You don't necessarily get warning when a paladin is about to fall, though. If for example a paladin says it's necessary to execute this (actually innocent) person and you believe them and let them execute the innocent, the paladin doesn't fall until after the innocent is dead.
Couple of problems... A Paladin who falls isn't a Paladin again until they atone. Thus a Paladin, a real one, is assumed by anyone they interact with to be a paragon of virtue.
Literally - If a Paladin is found in the town square standing over a dead body and says, "He was a vile cultist who attacked me."
Then he was. No questions asked.
I'd be asking questions. Starting with, was the paladin tricked - did he believe it was a cultist when it was a dominated thrall? Has he just fallen - should we re-test his paladinness and how to do that? How did we know he was a paladin in the first place?
As I mentioned in another paladin thread, I've actually considered giving all characters who swear a sacred oath such as the paladin's some form of halo effect that allows others to identify them as such. It would be difficult or impossible to forge, but potentially something you could mask if you're trying to keep a low profile. It would solve the issue of how exactly people can tell who's a paladin while also giving that little guarantee that the paladin (no matter what their class) hasn't fallen. I'm not quite sure that it would actually improve the narrative, though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Paladins fall instantly the first time they commit an evil act or violate the code.
I'm missing the word instantly in my copy of the core book. That's some Old Testament stuff right there -- no warning (as spoken about in the Faith's books where Gods may show their displeasure), no visitations, just BOOM!
All the more reason not to misrepresent oneself as a pally
Right. Except no, how can you be sure that you are misrepresenting yourself? Do paladins go door to door telling the good word and handing out pamphlets on how not to appear as a paladin? If Joe CountryBoy hears about the paladins and tales that they did good and killed demons and whatnot, but there was no recruiting drive in his neighborhood so he decides by golly he'll be a paladin too! He isn't misrepresenting himself, he believes that he's going to be a paladin.
You seem to be implying that the gods themselves have scribed in the heavens and stars for all to see what a paladin is and that straying into that territory is some heresy, and I'm not seeing it.
I've found roleplayed actions and words to be a good indication of intent thus far, but this seems to be the drain that this argument is spiraling around.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wouldn't one of the gods say "That mortal is doing it right!" and just grant the poor guy paladin abilities? I'm only half serious with this question, but in a world with PF style gods, would there even be fighters who lived by the paladin code and didn't end up as paladins?
Not being quite suited to the paladin class would be an excellent reason for a deity not to give someone those specific powers. There are plenty of other ways to help a virtuous and faithful person pursue a heroic calling. A person who lacks talent with weapons (strength and dex) but has great presence and wishes to protect others would make an excellent Life Oracle. Persons with more wisdom than personal presence would make better use of the abilities of a cleric or warpriest. An academic individual might receive a celestial teacher to help in their arcane studies - an assistant who will in fact leave if the paladin-mage violates their oath. Rangers can get warpriest blessings in addition to deity-specific fighting styles. My group has also played with personalized deity boons - the oracle for example can compel others to parley, as a gift from a LG deity.
Equally possible is that, at the core, the chosen one has a spark of energy that the divine can combine their energy with to create a Paladin. One has it, the other doesn't.
See "Chosen One"
See, this is a really interesting idea with interesting implications. For example - why should we value this spark if it is not required for someone to develop the personal character of a paladin and to do good and heroic deeds?
See, this is a really interesting idea with interesting implications. For example - why should we value this spark if it is not required for someone to develop the personal character of a paladin and to do good and heroic deeds?
I firmly hold that if anyone at all is a Paladin, it's Captain America. And, in the first movie, anyway, he proved he was a Paladin when he threw his scrawny body on top of that fake grenade. Way back before he was ever graced with the superpowers and the wherewithal to actually be able to accomplish something in the name of Good.
Really, if you're going to bank on the trustworthiness of paladins, you need a way to know the paladin is who he says he is. Much like the summoner and his eidolon are marked with a rune that can't be hidden. And it should be something that can't be faked.
You need an Arisian Lens! Good job, messageboards -- we finally caught up with 1950!
You need an Arisian Lens! Good job, messageboards -- we finally caught up with 1950!
Much like the Galatic Police's Golden Meteor, it should be noted that even the *LENS* wasn't a perfect foolproof device, particularly in the later books.
Massive props for bringing in the reference, though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You don't necessarily get warning when a paladin is about to fall, though. If for example a paladin says it's necessary to execute this (actually innocent) person and you believe them and let them execute the innocent, the paladin doesn't fall until after the innocent is dead.Incorrect.
The second they made an accusation against someone they knew was innocent, they fall. And, with few exceptions, anyone near the Paladin would know it due to the missing auras.
If they didn't know, and the executed person was innocent they still wouldn't fall as they didn't wittingly perform an evil action.
To continue on this theme, a paladin's (or another good person's) slow fall into evil and away from grace is a familiar trope in fantasy. I think that if you simply have it as "Oh boy, the paladin lied about liking is dinner! He falls!" just sort of plays against all that. If it were truly that easy to get rid of paladins, wouldn't evil have a much easier time engineering their fall? We wouldn't have threads where GMs have to work hard at it, you'd just wait for any small flaw and they fall apart.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To continue on this theme, a paladin's (or another good person's) slow fall into evil and away from grace is a familiar trope in fantasy. I think that if you simply have it as "Oh boy, the paladin lied about liking is dinner! He falls!" just sort of plays against all that. If it were truly that easy to get rid of paladins, wouldn't evil have a much easier time engineering their fall? We wouldn't have threads where GMs have to work hard at it, you'd just wait for any small flaw and they fall apart.You don't necessarily get warning when a paladin is about to fall, though. If for example a paladin says it's necessary to execute this (actually innocent) person and you believe them and let them execute the innocent, the paladin doesn't fall until after the innocent is dead.Incorrect.
The second they made an accusation against someone they knew was innocent, they fall. And, with few exceptions, anyone near the Paladin would know it due to the missing auras.
If they didn't know, and the executed person was innocent they still wouldn't fall as they didn't wittingly perform an evil action.
Also, Paladins can get mind-controlled, although it is especially difficult to pull off. Even Aura of Resolve doesn't grant immunity to Dominate (as opposed to Charm) or Modify Memory, and it doesn't kick in until 8th level; even Aura of Righteousness doesn't give immunity to supernatural or extroardinary Compulsin effects (only Compulsion spells and spell-like abilities), and it doesn't kick in until 17th level.
From the other end of things, eventually somebody is going to figure out how to hack into whatever Paladins use to do what they do. An example of this can be found in the WarCraft Universe, with the Blood Elves (they captured one of the Naaru responsible for giving Paladins their powers, and extract its power to fuel their own Blood Paladins). In the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, some evildoing deity or even organization of sufficiently powerful Outsiders might figure out a way to do something of the sort without needing to go to the trouble to capture or hack whatever Paladins use as a conduit (except perhaps for research purposes). Arguably, this has already happeed -- after all, Antipaladins exist in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, and multiple deities commission them. Antipaladins have some defects right now that would make them hard to pass off as Paladins without substantial use of magic (that itself could be detected or dispelled), but you can be sure that research into this is ongoing in the Lower Planes. Maybe the upcoming Insinuator archetype is the result . . . .
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just realized I missed this post...
You don't necessarily get warning when a paladin is about to fall, though. If for example a paladin says it's necessary to execute this (actually innocent) person and you believe them and let them execute the innocent, the paladin doesn't fall until after the innocent is dead.Incorrect.
The second they made an accusation against someone they knew was innocent, they fall. And, with few exceptions, anyone near the Paladin would know it due to the missing auras.
If they didn't know, and the executed person was innocent they still wouldn't fall as they didn't wittingly perform an evil action.
Okay, he doesn't make an accusation, he just requests the prisoner be surrendered to him. The person on the other end trusts the paladin and hands over the prisoner. Paladin executes prisoner, then falls.
Also worth pointing out I didn't say they made any accusation against the innocent person, they said it was necessary to execute them. Which the paladin might believe (therefore is not lying and has not yet violated the code), but it doesn't mean it's not an evil act.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Aaaaand because of this whole thread the world I run for my housemates kids now has an entire order of paladins without paladin class levels that are just as respected and trusted if not more so then chosen or classed paladins because they don't get fancy gewgaws for following the code.. just more hardship.
I find all this paladin identification nonsense to be utterly implausible in Golarion.
For one, PC classes are super rare. Like maybe 1 in 100. So orders of single class anything are super unlikely. You wont have specifically wizard only colleges. Thats just unrealistic.
So basically a righteous order composed of solely paladins sounds ridiculous to me. Further 99% of the general masses have probably either never heard of Paladins except in a story. Further the Holy Avenger nonsense is unlikely because of it's gold value which will be beyond most cities.
Then you end up with a setting where people can totally claim they're a Paladin from the story they heard and since the stories of paladins focuses mostly on being a paragon of Good thats not necessarily wrong.
Heck most Paladins dont know in character what their class is. They're just holy warriors empowered by their cause and dedication. Clerics, Inquisitors, Warpriests and tons of archetypes for even non-divine classes can be flavored as such. Deliverer Slayers are my favorite!
Paladin is a weird word anyways. I refer to most of them as Champions of their god. As a Cleric, I usually end up calling myself a Priest.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
See, this is a really interesting idea with interesting implications. For example - why should we value this spark if it is not required for someone to develop the personal character of a paladin and to do good and heroic deeds?Equally possible is that, at the core, the chosen one has a spark of energy that the divine can combine their energy with to create a Paladin. One has it, the other doesn't.
See "Chosen One"
Elaborating on this because it hasn't really been addressed and I think it's important.
I've started noticing a "specialness" narrative in modern culture, the idea that some people are just special in some mysterious way that often makes them not just the protagonist of the story but the most important person in the lives of everyone around them. It's a really tempting idea, but it can lead to narcissism and entitlement.
Look at Harry Potter. He's the Boy Who Lived, and because of something his mother did he has this special magical love power - plus the actual prophecied chosen one thing that comes up in later books. And because of this, he's the hero, regardless of his actual actions. Not only does he get away with recklessly breaking school rules, but there's a bit where he uses the Unforgivable Cruciatus curse on a Death Eater and McGonagall remarks that it's "gallant" of him.
Or for an even worse case, try Twilight in which the main character is basically the center of the universe for every other character in the book for no reason at all. And she's a jerk about it, taking advantage of others' goodwill and looking down on the unspecial people in her life.
For a counterexample, see the Lioness and Protector of the Small series by Tamora Pierce. These books deal with the first two female knights in the setting, one of whom is the Chosen of the Goddess, blessed with healing magic. The second lacks any such power. Interestingly, the Lioness' specialness is a two-edged sword in that many people attribute her success to that unique divine gift and dismiss her actual skill. It's not until Keladry shows up and holds her own as a knight with martial skill alone that other young women become inspired to follow her example. As a Fighter, she can inspire in a way that the Paladin cannot.
Now, paladins aren't going to get away with Cruciatus, but they won't fall for petty arrogance, however unbecoming of a knight. And while many paladins would no doubt recognize that you can't really take credit for possessing some immutable quality outside your own control, others would certainly develop a sense of superiority. After all, that's basically how nobility worked in the aristocratic societies in which the paladin archetype originated – certain people were divinely selected to have power. While paladins obviously wouldn't take part in the kinds of abuses that the historical nobility did, there would be a strong temptation to expect privledges beyond what would be accorded similarly virtuous people who lacked this extra “spark.”
I think it is much more uplifting to think that anyone can reach their exalted status simply by being equally virtuous – that it is so rare for the power of the divine to shine forth not because few people have the potential for that light but because so many of us allow it to be hidden under a bushel.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If only there were some way to physically quantify the qualities of a Paladin. To show us without shadow of a doubt if someone is or is not a Paladin.
Maybe some sort of count in their bloodstream...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If only there were some way to physically quantify the qualities of a Paladin. To show us without shadow of a doubt if someone is or is not a Paladin.
Maybe some sort of count in their bloodstream...
You can do a Magi-Chlorian count for sorcerers. Maybe there's something similar for paladins?
From the other end of things, eventually somebody is going to figure out how to hack into whatever Paladins use to do what they do. An example of this can be found in the WarCraft Universe, with the Blood Elves (they captured one of the Naaru responsible for giving Paladins their powers, and extract its power to fuel their own Blood Paladins). In the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, some evildoing deity or even organization of...Really doubtful.
Not even the Gods have figured out how. James Jacobs even mentioned that was why certain Gods can't make Paladins.
Like I said above, Antipaladins exist in Golarion. Not yet exactly what (for instance) Lawful Evil deities would be looking for, but they can look upon this as a prototype that shows that such a thing can be done. We'll just have to wait a few months and see what the Insinuator Project runs up with . . . .
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Aaaaand because of this whole thread the world I run for my housemates kids now has an entire order of paladins without paladin class levels that are just as respected and trusted if not more so then chosen or classed paladins because they don't get fancy gewgaws for following the code.. just more hardship.Aaaaaand because of this I did the same thing... Then made them all evil beings who abuse their power and went hidden for so long because they could. One person who was evil got in, got power, and since nobody could detect it, and there was no way to notice that anyone fell, they became an evil organization who have crushed all opposition while fooling the populace that they are good.
They are the next enemy for the PCs to crush, when a real Paladin shows up and realizes something is up with the fact that one of these "Paladins" is evil aligned.
EDIT:
To add... Also what bonuses are you giving class Paladins then? If they are suddenly deemed as "lesser" because they get divine power, then what normal class abilities do they get? Because Fighters get extra feats, and other classes get things for their class. Without Paladin abilities Paladins are really lame warriors... So if they are going to get the reputation for getting "gewgaws" then they should actually GET "gewgaws" that other classes don't...
So I recommend all class paladins in your world be given 1 feat per level and weapon/armor training to make up for the fact that their CLASS ABILITIES aren't actually any stronger than other class's abilities yet you are claiming, in universe, that they are.
Sounds to me like you just made a world where the entire planet thinks less of Paladins simply because they have divine abilities that put them on par with other classes...
Like I said... This is just some DM's dislike of Paladins OOC manifesting in game.
Or .. maybe, just maybe, it's some DMs thinking outside of the box and not giving everyone in the world the ability to recognize paladins immediately like they have a brand on their heads (not a bad idea .. hmmm) and giving the world a bit more than black and white. Hero worship and blind allegiance is great, but not what everyone is looking for. YMMV.
Edit: you do realize that others can detect evil as well?
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Aaaaaand because of this I did the same thing... Then made them all evil beings who abuse their power and went hidden for so long because they could.
Please forgive me for not believing you are actually doing this.
I also find it mind-boggling that an entire order of good-aligned people could not determine someone was unfit for the order without magic. We kind of already do that in the real world.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Aaaaand because of this whole thread the world I run for my housemates kids now has an entire order of paladins without paladin class levels that are just as respected and trusted if not more so then chosen or classed paladins because they don't get fancy gewgaws for following the code.. just more hardship.Aaaaaand because of this I did the same thing... Then made them all evil beings who abuse their power and went hidden for so long because they could. One person who was evil got in, got power, and since nobody could detect it, and there was no way to notice that anyone fell, they became an evil organization who have crushed all opposition while fooling the populace that they are good.
They are the next enemy for the PCs to crush, when a real Paladin shows up and realizes something is up with the fact that one of these "Paladins" is evil aligned.
EDIT:
To add... Also what bonuses are you giving class Paladins then? If they are suddenly deemed as "lesser" because they get divine power, then what normal class abilities do they get? Because Fighters get extra feats, and other classes get things for their class. Without Paladin abilities Paladins are really lame warriors... So if they are going to get the reputation for getting "gewgaws" then they should actually GET "gewgaws" that other classes don't...
So I recommend all class paladins in your world be given 1 feat per level and weapon/armor training to make up for the fact that their CLASS ABILITIES aren't actually any stronger than other class's abilities yet you are claiming, in universe, that they are.
Sounds to me like you just made a world where the entire planet thinks less of Paladins simply because they have divine abilities that put them on par with other classes...
Like I said... This is just some DM's dislike of Paladins OOC manifesting in game.
Or .. maybe, just maybe, it's some DMs thinking outside of the box and not giving everyone in the world the ability to recognize paladins immediately like they have a brand on their heads (not a bad idea .. hmmm) and giving the world a bit more than black and white. Hero worship and blind allegiance is great, but not what everyone is looking for. YMMV.
Edit: you do realize that others can detect evil as well?
No no no, everyone knows that the only reason someone would ever disagree with HWalsh about anything is because they are evil[/b[ and [b]wrong. I know I always like to kick some puppies after every time I don't agree with him.
Well, 5e doesn't have an alignment restriction for paladins, so my paladin can kick a puppy, heal it with lay on hands, and hope the whole thing evens itself out; Ain't detected myself as evil yet!
^Now this is getting interesting. Cool nucleus of an idea for a prestige class something like Knight of Razmiran, by the way . . . .
|
I think of class names as a shorthand for certain rule options more than as a description of their role in the setting. Not every fighter in the setting has to have levels in the fighter class, not every thief must have rogue levels. And not every Shoanti has levels in the barbarian class. The same goes for Paladins. Not every person worth to be called a paladin must have levels in the Paladin class.
Now as I'm way behind in reading, I'm not sure if there even are any Paladin-only orders to be found on Golarion. But even if, they would probably have a catchy name (like the Knights of Ozem) and wouldn't be referred to as paladins by the commoner.
The people of a world don't tend to think in rule terms. So the main reason to use those rule terms in setting for me is not to confuse the reader too much. But in my version of Golarion, the term "paladin" could probably refer to a lot of those people described in "Champions of Purity" (at least as far as the common people is concerned).
^Safeguards are good, as long as you don't get complacent because of them. If you get complacent about safeguards, you are less likely to notice when somebody finds a way around them.