Hi.
In Core Rules, about Multiclassing, it says if you want to choose another class, you can do it, just choose another class and up 1 level to it. So, for example, a lvl 7 character can be a lvl 6 fighter and lvl 1 sorcerer. I can call this a Classic Multiclassing.
Reading about Variant Multiclassing, I found that you just change 1 of your normal feats (at level 3, 7, 11, 15, 19) for 1 of the secondary class feature. But, how exactly does it works?
I'm confused. So, if I have, for example, this character fighter lvl 7, if I choose to be sorcerer too, this means that I got 2 sorcerer class feature instead 2 feats, but, Can I cast spels like a level 7 sorcerer with just 2 features of the class? Do I keep the numbers (BAB, Saving throws) of the Fighter class?
Talking about the grow in the character, which method does more impact? Which one is "more legal"?
Thanks for your comments.
My Unchained book isn't to hand at the moment, so this is from memory, but bear with me. If I remember correctly, you pick a variant multiclass at level one, and depending on which one you pick, you get certain abilities reminiscent of the class's abilities. These abilities come in place of some of your feats (I can't remember which feat numbers at the moment).
The sorcerer variant multiclass works a bit like Eldritch heritage, but without the need for charisma. You would not cast like a level 7 sorcerer (you wouldn't get any casting ability), but you would gain some bloodline powers in place of some feats.
The class features gained through variant multiclassing are set, and I think can be found online. For example, picking a Magus would give you certian specific (and usually toned down) class abilities in place of feats; you don't choose which abilities, they're given for you. Variant multiclassing does not affect BAB, health, or saves.
If I understand good, this means that if you pick your secondary class sorcerer (or even cleric or druid) you don't even can cast a spell of that classes? So, You just gain the class features at those levels but you can't casts any spell like a magic-user at that level?
In that case, I can´t feel it more useful than the classic multiclassing.
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It has it's uses. For example, a Fighter with Variant Multicass Sorcerer could choose the Draconic or Orc bloodlines for some nice boosts. Someone grabbing the Wizard Multiclass can suddenly be a teleporting death machine. And if you play a Bloodrager and pick up Barbarian as a VMC, you suddenly get all the rage. ALL OF IT!
One of my favourite abilities is to take Cavalier for a melee character and choose the Order of the Flame. Having a Barbabrian fly across the field and next to the enemy caster when you roll initiative is hilarious. And makes for a terminally sad caster.
But yes, it's somewhat limited in it's uses. Just think of it as another option for characters that can make do with less feats.
If I understand good, this means that if you pick your secondary class sorcerer (or even cleric or druid) you don't even can cast a spell of that classes? So, You just gain the class features at those levels but you can't casts any spell like a magic-user at that level?
In that case, I can´t feel it more useful than the classic multiclassing.
That's right. It's not really anything like multiclassing in that respect.
The advantage is that you aren't losing spellcasting progression in your main class at all.
Not sure how much you have read of Variant Multiclassing, but the www.d20pfsrd.com repost of Variant Multiclassing is good to have on hand even if you have already read it (this is also available on the Paizo PRD). Then look at the guides Amateur Night - A Guide to Variant Multiclassing and The ABCs of VMC - Variant Multiclassing. A couple of things to note:
1. The Variant MultiClassing options are extremely uneven in quality: Some can be really good in the right builds (like Magus and Wizard, and even Fighter can be okay in the right build(*)), while some are just junk (like Gunslinger, Ranger, and Witch, and Monk is junk except in really specific builds such as Unarmed/Unarmored Ninja).
2. Even though Pathfinder Unchained recommends against mixing Variant MultiClassing and normal MultiClassing, it does not ban it, and you can get results by combining these, especially in making some prestige classes viable again (such as Arcane Trickster). Switching your normal class advancement has no direct effect on your Variant MultiClassing advancement, although you have to do it very carefully to make sure that everything remains useful together.
3. Even the good VMC options are rife with trap options. VMC Magus needs to be on a spellcasting character, or the Spellstrike that you get at 11th level is just dead.
(*)The second VMC guide linked above pans VMC Fighter, but the Weapon Master's Handbook is out now, so this just got a LOT better, especially if you stack on something like Myrmidarch Magus that already gets some ranks of Weapon Training -- you get to replace ranks of Weapon Training after the 1st with Advanced Weapon Training options. It may get even better when the Armor Master's Handbook comes out later this year.
The problem with classical multiclassing is that are dividing your abilities between two classes pretty much evenly. If I am a sorcerer and want to have some rogue abilities I have don’t progress the sorcerer abilities unless I actually raise the sorcerer level. Classes with a lot of level dependent class abilities usually lose a lot more than they gain.
Spell casters are really hurt by this for several reasons. First and most importantly they are behind on gaining higher level spells. Many spells become worthless or at least a lot less useful as you level up. Sleep for example is completely useless at high level. Second your caster level is not keeping up which means that your spells are not as effective as they should be. Any spell that requires a caster level check is going to be a problem. Also monsters with spell resistance become extremely difficult to affect.
What the variant multiclassing does is allow you to pick up some of the defining class features of the other class while not sacrificing anything the primary class gives you. A sorcerer using the variant multiclassing rules would gain some rogue abilities as he leveled up but without sacrificing anything (except feats) for them. He has not lost any spells, caster level or bloodline powers to gain trap finding, sneak attack, and evasion.
With it you can create some interesting characters like a paladin with the sorcerer’s bloodline, or a cleric with a familiar. As previously mentioned some combinations are better than others. What you cannot get is a fighter that picks up the ability to cast wizards spells like a wizard.
Thanks for the links.
This born since one of the players (a fighter) wants to casts spells without investing a level in sorcerer, or lossing a level in fighter. So he came telling me about the VMC, and how that allows him to casts some spells keeping his fighter level.
Now I understand that this only exchanges some feats for class features without granting the spells tables such the normal multiclassing (if you choose a spellcaster class as secondary).
If VMC and normal multiclassing are mixeable, maybe I can suggest him some combination.
Thanks for your answers :)
yeah, the wizard one lets you cast a cantrip at like lvl 11.
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If VMC and normal multiclassing are mixeable, maybe I can suggest him some combination.
You can't multiclass into your VMC class. Apart from that, even if the book says "it is probably a good idea to use either this variant system or normal multiclassing," that's just not true. Despite the name, VMC has next to nothing to do with actual multiclassing, it's a set of weird feats. Like, VMC barbarian is pretty much rage as a feat.
Actually casting without actuall levels in a casting class is not possible. If the player wants to do both fighting and casting, you may want to suggest him to play a class that does that (like Bloodrager or most of the 6/9 casters).
What kind of casting does the player want? Selfbuffs? Damage spells? Debuffs to make hitting the target easier?
@UnArcaneElection: Your #3 doesn't make any sense. E.g. Arcane pool with Prescient Attack is totally worth 3 feats on an UnRogue, even if you replace your level 11 feat with nothing. That's not a trap, that's balancing - bad stuff to even out the good stuff.
VMC magus is a real gem. Definitely worth it for an Unrogue even if the 11th-level power is useless. Rather sweet on a battle host occultist to let you stack arcane pool with legacy weapon to really juice your weapon to the max. I'm thinking it could also be pretty nifty on an eldritch knight, if you want a gish who casts off the wizard list instead of the magus one.
{. . .}
@UnArcaneElection: Your #3 doesn't make any sense. E.g. Arcane pool with Prescient Attack is totally worth 3 feats on an UnRogue, even if you replace your level 11 feat with nothing. That's not a trap, that's balancing - bad stuff to even out the good stuff.
Not very reliable balancing, since spellcasting classes (including multiclass hybrids like Eldritch Knight) using VMC Magus can do quite well with what would be a dead level on a Rogue (not quite dead if you invest in the Major Magic Rogue Talent, but that's a whole Talent to make Spellstrike just barely useful).
Do note that if you want to Spellstrike with spells that are not on the Magus list, you will need the Broad Study Magus Arcana, which you will have to get at level 7 (and have it be unusable for 4 levels) or wait until level 15 to get (even Blade Adept Arcanist doesn't make this Magus Arcana available, so you have to wait for VMC Magus IV if you didn't get it at VMC Magus II).
... you will need the Broad Study Magus Arcana, which you will have to get at level 7 (and have it be unusable for 4 levels) or wait until level 15 to get ...
Prime retraining ground I think. Tho' level 11 is actually past the end of most games I've played.
Not very reliable balancing, since spellcasting classes (including multiclass hybrids like Eldritch Knight) using VMC Magus can do quite well with what would be a dead level on a Rogue (not quite dead if you invest in the Major Magic Rogue Talent, but that's a whole Talent to make Spellstrike just barely useful).
Yes, I agree, but that still doesn't make it a trap. A trap is something that looks good but isn't. This is pretty much the opposite: It looks bad (because you loose your lvl 11 feat in exchange for nothing) but it actually is good because the other stuff you get makes it worth it.
Regarding Broad Study: You could also take the Extra Arcana feat at level 9 or 13.
^I keep forgetting that Rules As Written, VMC Magus doesnt have the same restriction on taking Extra {whatever} as VMC Oracle and VMC Witch, but VMC Magus is SO much better than these that I expect that this will get Errata'd.
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I'd say VMC Monk is worth it in cases where your archetype gets things it does with unarmed strikes, but doesn't get any sort of unarmed dice progression (such as with an elemental ascetic kineticist, internal alchemist, or an unarmed fighter). Not so much for classes that are a bit feat-starved or with caster BAB.
Imagine if we lived in a beautiful alternate universe where Paizo would make VMC Oracle and VMC Witch actually not horrible choices, as opposed to UnArcaneElection's forecast of a nerf to VMC Magus, which I do agree is probably far more likely. Le sigh...
VMC Magus even with the nerf I forecast would still be pretty good provided that you are a spellcaster (even 4/9 would be good enough). If you are not a spellcaster, in at least a lot of cases it is probably better to dip 3 levels in Magus and then use the feat Extra Arcana if you need more (exception: if you need some Arcana that requires a high Magus level, then you really need VMC Magus, but are stuck with a feat that is just lost at levell 11 with no direct compensation -- that indirect compensation from getting the high-level Magus Arcana better be REALLY GOOD).
* * * * * * * *
And yes, I would love to see VMC Oracle, VMC Ranger, and VMC Witch made decent, preferably as part of Variant Multiclassing Unchained -- or since these came out in Pathfinder Unchained, maybe I should say Variant Multiclassing Reloaded?
All I ever wanted was to play an otherwise normal fighter who just had a bunch of hexes. Basically like a grizzled old soldier who's picked up a few odd magical tricks from cunning folk and hedge witches he's stumbled across while out campaigning. I thought VMC Witch would end up allowing me to do just that, but...well, anyway.
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^Speaking of which, I would like a Hexrager archetype of Bloodrager.