Fly Skill - How High do "Power-Users" want it at Mid-Levels?

[Crai]

There's a ton of Paizo threads discussing the Fly skill ... but none talking about the most efficient/helpful scores to have at any given levels.

Granted, the Fly skill is somewhat of a luxury skill. As there are many builds that have flying capability but either could care less about having any ranks due to simplistic flying needs ... or the given build is more focused on a series of more necessity-based skills.

The reason I used "Power-User" in the title of this thread is that characters who tend to have significant Fly skill bonuses tend to be those who have system mastery of the Flying Maneuvers, Flying Common Uses and Flying Skill Modifiers tables/sections ... and like to push the limits of flying optimization.

I've played characters who fit all the descriptions above. But I've never truly found the "sweet spot" of Flying skill bonuses at levels where Flying optimization really peaks. That being around 8th to 12th level.

So I'm coming to you all to see what kind of Fly skill scores do you all recommend for a serious, optimized flyer at those levels (8th to 12th). Let's assume we have a Wizard character who has the luxury to allocate as many skill points as he wishes ... and has frequentaccess to spells such as Fly, Overland Flight, etc. and/or magic items that grants flight capability.

[GM Rednal]

Anyone who truly wants to master it has probably put in a point at every level and tried to get it a class bonus, so let's take the average mid-level here and say they have a minimum bonus of 13 (class + ranks). They probably have at least 16 Dex in order to be landing touch attacks and go faster, and are avoiding armor, so that's another three points, bringing us to 16.

And because he's a wizard, he likes Things, so let's say he's crafted himself a Carpet of Flying to use, which gives him an untyped +5 bonus to Fly checks and a way of carrying stuff around so he can save his daily spells for other stuff (at-will flying is nifty!). He would've made Wings of Flying, but he's already got a Cloak of Resistance on his shoulders and is unwilling to take that off because his Fortitude needs the help.

So, with reasonable investment, a mid-level character is probably looking at somewhere around +21 on their checks. More if they did feats and traits for this one thing.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Never put a rank into this. Keep a cheap headband of intellect keyed to fly skill instead.

[Create Mr. Pitt]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Never put a rank into this. Keep a cheap headband of intellect keyed to fly skill instead.

This is probably true, but it's likely you're safe at 20 in which case the headband could be used for other skills.

[Crai]

As the OP, let me clarify ... I'm not so much interested in "invested ranks" ... but more so in actual recommended Flying skill aggregate scores for a given middle level. In order to achieve specific maneuvers or optimized tactical objectives.

Granted, I realize this exercise is one that will be highly subjective in responses. Especially since there's a ton of variables like campaign terrain/environment, expected enemy types, synchronized abilities with fellow teammates, etc.

So that's why I chose a generalized typical scenario. A wizard in an iconic party of 4. Whose campaign terrain and environment is dynamic enough to allow for a lot of different flying experiences (urban, forests, dungeons, etc). And has a fairly consistent use of the typical flying spells - Fly, Overlight Flight, etc.

[Jaunt]

So you're saying it's around 8 to 12. Let's assume that's an average of 10, making his CL for Fly also 10. That's 15 points right there, between max ranks and the bonus from the spell. 3 more for class skill. You can't roll lower than a 1, so having a +1 dex puts you at the threshold for never having to make rolls unless you're flying in strong winds or worse.

So I submit to you that the optimal breakpoints are 19:
19 - Be awesome in moderate wind or less
23 - Be awesome in severe wind or less (and the jump is only 2 more from Strong)
27 - Be awesome in windstorms, because how often are you flying in a hurricane? If the GM wants you grounded, he'll invent super turbo hurricane plus plus that gives a -50. Like a hurricane made out of ghosts.

[Sissyl]

Or sharks.

[Casual Viking]

9 is the minimum for any sort of combat flying, 14 gets you hover and sharp turns, and 19 gets you vertical flight (at the no-roll level). Unless your own party regularly generates storms, I wouldn't worry too much about weather.

[CWheezy]

GM Rednal wrote:

Anyone who truly wants to master it has probably put in a point at every level and tried to get it a class bonus

You can't put points in fly until you can cast fly every day

[Ascalaphus]

CRB > Skills > Fly wrote:

Move less than half speed and remain flying 10

Hover 15
Turn greater than 45° by spending 5 feet of movement 15
Turn 180° by spending 10 feet of movement 20
Fly up at greater than 45° angle 20

I interpret the first line as "if you fail this check, you have to move at least half or fall". That's very awkward if you want to do full attacks.

The second line is about staying in place. It implies that the previous line allows you to move slowly but you still have to move. So DC 10 will let you full attack an enemy but you have to 5ft fly a bit around him to stay in the air. Annoying if you want to maintain a flank. With DC 15 you can stay in place.

Flying sharply upwards is also often useful when flying indoors.

In summary: you should get a 9 or 14 at least, and 19 is nice.

Anything above that is insurance against wind conditions.

[Crai]

The last few posts (especially by Ascalaphus and Casual Viking) were very insightful. Those thresholds and baselines pretty much mirror what I've experienced as well.