RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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It's often not that hard to get the entire party flying. The Druid turns into dire bat and carries one person up into the sky, while the Wizard casts Fly on the Barbarian, who carries him past the obstacle.
It's not impossible for the GM to keep these things from spoiling entire adventures, but the fact that the GM has to work around it demonstrates that there is a problem. There are many stories I can't tell if the PCs simply fly past all obstacle.
GM: The black knight stands on the bridge over the chasm. "None shall pass!" he cries.
Players: We fly around him.GM: You must find the enchanted glade, which is hidden somewhere in the Forest of Shadows.
Players: We fly up into the sky until we see the glade, and land in it.GM: The mountain looks too steep and slippery to climb. The only way to proceed is through the mines of Moria...
Players: We fly over the mountains.
Knight: can be an issue, but even 1st level characters could climb down one side and up the other to avoid this, or swing across elsewhere on a rope, or whatever.
Enchanted glade: I'd still require a tough Perception or Survival check to locate the glade...have you ever seen a forest from the air? Unless a clearing is huge they tend to be hard to spot. The university near me has a reasonably high tower and trees planted as landscaping...and from the tower, I swear the area looks like a trackless wilderness with a few buildings poking out. You can literally see nothing about the ground due to sparse tree cover. Also, a long term search involves long term flight, which brings us up to the 9th level range where things start to change anyway.
Mountain: Again, need long term flight. LotR characters generally seem to be in an E6 world - and if that's the type of game your group likes then go for it.
Anzyr, it doesn't make too much difference with your examples but remember most wizards can't put ranks in Fly until at least 5th level. A lot of people forget that Fly has an exception where you can't train it unless you have a consistent way to fly. I tend to find that it's unlikely to ever be maxed due to this, but as you've demonstrated, it hardly needs to be.
Take cover... Anywhere.
Or pick a direction and start running for it. The wizard will need to make a double move to keep up with a quadruple running fighter. No chance for spells or shooting.
5 minutes really isn't very long to wait.
One sort of flight which can present problems is that of dragons since they tend to fly at a speed of 200'. Besides allowing long strafing runs this often means that the dragon gets to decide when and if combat is engaged. My girlfriend came up with a pretty effective solution to that by using Dimension Door to move our melee characters right next to a dragon who tried to run away. We totally slaughtered it. My PC was flying at the time because he was riding her animal companion, which had Overland Flight on it.
Another problem I sometimes see with flight is that it can lead to adjudication questions. For instance, when I use Dirty Trick Master to make a flying foe Pinned we're not quite sure what should happen...
#1 - It falls right away
#2 - It falls at the beginning of its next turn
#3 - It falls if it fails to move before the end of its next turn
Can it make a Fly check while pinned? Similar questions come up once in a while with grappling along with the question of whether a grappled creature can choose whether or not to stop flying and potentially drag the grappler down. The idea of carrying other creatures around while flying leads to questions about what creatures weigh. None of those are a big deal, but I think people already tend to ignore the rules for flight because they're a little complicated.
Just for sake of discussion - In the level 5 Wizard vs Level 20 Fighter scenario, if you were playing the fighter, what would you do?
A level 20 fighter can fire a lot of arrows or bolts in one round with a full attack. +20/+15/+10/+5...for a level 20 character, being invisible as a foe accounts for almost nothing.
As a GM or a player, if you try to account for any action that negates the effect of a fly spell, some wizards will cry foul..."How dare you put your GM hat on and have the giants actually retreat to their cave where my flight means nothing and let the encounter go to melee. How dare the dungeon we're in have a ceiling. How dare you make me have to be part of the crew on a cargo ship we hired to transport all of our heavy and bulky treasures. How dare you make me attend the queen's masquerade ball and give the bards and rogues their moments of glory. How dare you make opponents intelligent and counter my glory-hogging rules abuse of magic."
The biggest problem I see with so many of these spell power / abuse questions is the way some folks who play wizards react to proper game mastering.
Even dumb monsters retreat to their hiding holes when injured...not all combats take place in wide-open empty fields devoid of weather, cover, or concealment, and not all combats take place without unintended consequences. Ok, so said wizard flies over the forest to get a better look...ok, he just made himself look like a snack to some other flying baddy. Some would say the GM is just picking on the wizard or trying to nerf his/her spell power. I would say just as a party *walking* through the forest incurs a chance of a random encounter, so does a party or a wizard *flying* over such forest. It is not picking on the flying wizard, it is reacting to their actions...what a good GM does. If the wizard split the party and is all alone, that's his/her fault (and problem).
Difficult terrain to move through? Why should walking characters be the only ones who have to deal with terrain features that hamper movement? Weather conditions, visibility conditions, and random encounters still happen in the air, just like they do in water, underground, and in urban settings.
The fly spell is only as broken as the wizard players insist it be.
Cheers
(now I duck)
Take cover... Anywhere.
Or pick a direction and start running for it. The wizard will need to make a double move to keep up with a quadruple running fighter. No chance for spells or shooting.
5 minutes really isn't very long to wait.
Your level 20 fighter is now fleeing or cowering from a level 5 wizard using fly and windwall.
Fly combos too well with spells like invisibility, windwall, fickle winds, and summoning.
A level 5 wizard with a crossbow could solo a level 20 fighter.
With two spells (fly invisibility) the wizard can become basically undetectable and scout far better than a rogue.Fly's issues are less inherent and more that it's dangerous in the magic system it is in. By itself, it can collapse certain narrative arcs, like most player abilities.
Just for sake of discussion - In the level 5 Wizard vs Level 20 Fighter scenario, if you were playing the fighter, what would you do?
This is the type of theoretical statements I was reading on other threads that inspired this theme of threads. As a GM, I wouldn't let one player dominate the table regardless of what their class combo's allowed, if a players experience is they don't play some classes because other players just use spells and/or magic items to do their "niche" better that's unfortunate and incumbent on the GM to address. No different than if one player kept interrupting and taking over RP encounters because they were just more assertive IRL.
If I was playing the rogue the thing I'd be getting bent about in game is why the wizard doesn't just cast fly and invisibility on me, or make me a potion or scroll, or let me use the potion or scroll I bought and I'll buff myself and scout....I'm better at it than a wizard given the same magical enhancements. And he's not glory-hogging the session.
Fly + windwall counters all range, so I need to either fly with magic or throw large enough boulders that they get through the wind wall. Barring those situational things, I would require teammates for assistance to combat something a 1/4th of my CR or hide behind a tower shield until the duration runs out.
As a GM, I wouldn't let players play a PF fighter. I also don't GM PF for reasons like this. WAY too many holes to patch that I could be spending that time on content.
Your level 20 fighter is now fleeing or cowering from a level 5 wizard using fly and windwall.Take cover... Anywhere.
Or pick a direction and start running for it. The wizard will need to make a double move to keep up with a quadruple running fighter. No chance for spells or shooting.
5 minutes really isn't very long to wait.
So I guess you are making an assumption that the encounter is taking place in a wide-open feature-less space devoid of cover, concealment and weather that guarantees the fighter can never get into melee range, and that the level 20 fighter has no equipment with which to counter a CR5 flying opponent...because after all, in 20 levels of adventuring the only reason the fighter is alive is because he obviously has never encountered a flying foe before?
So I guess you are making an assumption that the encounter is taking place in a wide-open feature-less space devoid of cover, concealment and weather that guarantees the fighter can never get into melee range, and that the level 20 fighter has no equipment with which to counter a CR5 flying opponent...because after all, in 20 levels of adventuring the only reason the fighter is alive is because he obviously has never encountered a flying foe before?Your level 20 fighter is now fleeing or cowering from a level 5 wizard using fly and windwall.Take cover... Anywhere.
Or pick a direction and start running for it. The wizard will need to make a double move to keep up with a quadruple running fighter. No chance for spells or shooting.
5 minutes really isn't very long to wait.
Or I was responding to that post.
In my experience, spells are really only overpowered in forums where folks are *trying* to come up with game-breaking / abusive combinations. In actual game play experience as a GM and PC, folks don't play spell casters as such because good GM's provide variation in time, setting, location, and in this case travel requirements, to prevent such abuse. There are times when being airborne is the best way to handle things, and times when being airborne is not. To me, that is what I think best keeps spells from being abused, and forums like this are a good way to get ideas for keeping games and encounters, variable, fun, and meaningful for player characters of all classes.
Cheers
3rd level Spells from the core rule book must only be comboded in theory. Surely no noob out there tried this out only to have the gm and fellow players view their creativity as munchkin cheese power gaming.
I've never found Fly to be a problem. Overland Flight and Teleport spells seem to be more an issue because they allow players to bypass huge chunks of scenarios and miss out on things. You can't stop that thought because in all fairness players have these abilities and want to use them.
I said "could" not always.
My response to the question included caveats including "use magic"
Javelin is useless after 300ft, but is a good point. Yes wizard would have problems using his or her own crossbow unless you stick you're arms out while firing or something.
The premise is good, the threads are an interesting resource. Time to pick another spell I reckon.
Any high-flying spell caster ought to have free-fall insurance. The old 3.5 Magic Item Compendium had the "Safewing Emblem" (or something like that) that activated automatically during a fall.
I think with massive fly speed creatures, readying attacks for when they get in range may be the answer. I believe there is also a feat that lets you ready an attack against something with reach.
Makes encounters blander, more difficult to prepare and design and widens the void between those with access to flight and those without.
Longer version, fly automatically destroys any encounter about terrain. Destroys any encounter with enemies without flight and without very strong range options. Destroys how believable many of the AP scenarios are, which can usually be solved by a smart use of flight.
You'll get people saying "but your encounter can take account that they are flying". Now you're in the territory of preparing a counter to your PCs tactics which is a no no on these boards and we're also back into making encounters blander.
It single handedly invalidates many GM tools, including terrain and half the bestiary.
Edit: I think using Fly should be a risk, I do not like the auto-levitate portion of the spell.
I didn't see any discussion on the role playing aspects of flight. Flying is a very 'showy' kind of magic, I would think that it tends to provoke strong reactions both good and bad with NPCs. Word might get around town about the amazing flying wizard making it hard for them to go about town incognito. Or it might intimidate people and cause them to stay away.
Also it doesn't sound very heroic or honourable to rain death from a great height upon an opponent who can't fight back. Certainly no good aligned character would do that under normal circumstances. Perhaps instead flight could open up the possibility of negotiating a surrender with an otherwise superior foe?
Also it doesn't sound very heroic or honourable to rain death from a great height upon an opponent who can't fight back. Certainly no good aligned character would do that under normal circumstances.
What do you consider normal circumstances for an adventurer?
Neutral Wizard: Look: an army of undead ogres is approaching the town! Let us destroy them from up here with your bow and my fireballs!
Paladin: No, that wouldn't be honourable. Let's land and take them on in a fair melee. And no casting spells from out of their range!
If killing an enemy in an unfair fight is wrong, then you probably shouldn't be trying to kill them at all.
I didn't see any discussion on the role playing aspects of flight. Flying is a very 'showy' kind of magic, I would think that it tends to provoke strong reactions both good and bad with NPCs. Word might get around town about the amazing flying wizard making it hard for them to go about town incognito. Or it might intimidate people and cause them to stay away.
Also it doesn't sound very heroic or honourable to rain death from a great height upon an opponent who can't fight back. Certainly no good aligned character would do that under normal circumstances. Perhaps instead flight could open up the possibility of negotiating a surrender with an otherwise superior foe?
Are you seriously of the position that Good aligned creatures cannot take advantage of an effective disparity of force in a fight?
Besides, last time I checked, neither heroics nor honor are required for the "Good" alignment. "Honor" is especially funny, since many horrific acts are described as "honorable" in some cultures. Honor is more often than not a lawful thing, and heroics are only associated with Good because militant characters(like most PCs) trying to do Good acts tends to end up looking heroic (read: bold and dramatic).
Edit: I think using Fly should be a risk, I do not like the auto-levitate portion of the spell.
Fly is a risk; for every level-appropriate opponent that has no ranged attacks, no spells, and no flight capacity itself, there are dozens that have at least one way to inflict pain on a flying enemy. (I mean, come on, even the CR 1/3 "Orc, common" carries javelins.)
I do agree that some cultural codes would definitely frown on death at a distance. Combat without risk is not honourable. This might affect lawful good types maybe lawful neutral if they had a strong enough warrior code. It may also affect Chaotic barbarian types that scoff at weak and puny wizards hiding in the clouds.
Flying should definitely increase the proportion of ranged of attacks. Normally I randomise ranged attacks or target the nearest but a flying creature would always take priority - partly for offering such a good target.
Also I have only just looked at details of the fly skill that say you must make a DC 15 fly check to hover in place - I.e not move each round. Granted this is not difficult to pass but gets riskier when it is the armoured melee with less dex carrying another party member. We had played it up to this point that perfect manoeuvrability gave you movement as you liked but I will add this to our group.
Also it doesn't sound very heroic or honourable to rain death from a great height upon an opponent who can't fight back. Certainly no good aligned character would do that under normal circumstances.What do you consider normal circumstances for an adventurer?
Neutral Wizard: Look: an army of undead ogres is approaching the town! Let us destroy them from up here with your bow and my fireballs!
Paladin: No, that wouldn't be honourable. Let's land and take them on in a fair melee. And no casting spells from out of their range!
If killing an enemy in an unfair fight is wrong, then you probably shouldn't be trying to kill them at all.
My issue is not with unfair fights.
My view is that if only one side can attack it is no longer a fight it is one party executing another. A good character would not want to take part in that. Obviously there will be exceptions like destroying undead as you rightly mentioned. I think if we got down into the detail of individual circumstances we would tend to agree more than disagree.
I know some GM's run games where every NPC acts like a fearless psychopath with nothing to lose and it becomes a situation where you must kill or be killed. Sometimes it is fun to play like that, the desperate anti hero or the utterly wicked villain for example. Usually my games are not like that and the fly spell is not just another weapon in a wizard's vast arsenal. Instead the fly spell is a role playing opportunity. Viewed like that the fly spell is not a game breaking spell.
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Boomerang Nebula, a great deal of warfare centers on putting yourself in a position such that you can destroy the enemy without them being able to destroy you back. There's nothing evil or dishonorable about that unless you are a total pacifist. In fact, there's a term for exactly the idea we're discussing--the ability to attack the enemy from the air when the enemy has no ability to attack your aircraft. It's called air supremacy, and most modern nations will not send in ground forces unless they have it.
Boomerang Nebula, a great deal of warfare centers on putting yourself in a position such that you can destroy the enemy without them being able to destroy you back. There's nothing evil or dishonorable about that unless you are a total pacifist. In fact, there's a term for exactly the idea we're discussing--the ability to attack the enemy from the air when the enemy has no ability to attack your aircraft. It's called air supremacy, and most modern nations will not send in ground forces unless they have it.
War is the breakdown of civilisation, the destruction of everything that is precious to us including morality. Only in war can you drop a bomb on a bunch of people you have never met in your life and have no genuine issue with, yet still be deluded enough to call it "honourable" or "just" or "good". Using the morality of war to make your case is a hiding to nowhere.
This is getting off topic so I think I will leave it at that.
A great example of flying changing the game occurred when I was GMing the Carrion Crown AP. Without getting into spoilers, the characters essentially assault a wizards tower, or more accurately a series of elevated buildings connected by narrow walkways. Normally, characters would have to progress through each building and cross all the walkways as they ascended to the final encounter at the highest point...
Naturally, the players didn't want to deal with slippery elevated walkways and just skipped to the top. Once they had defeated the boss, the rest of the encounters could be done at their leisure. While it did not ruin the game, it did disrupt my attempt to create a narrative of the players fighting their way through mooks with tension building and the flavor and setting being established as they build towards the epic final encounter.
There were two other problems. The first being all of the awkwardness of doing 3-D movement on a flat grid, and dealing with various rules issues - for example, does the fighters armor training allow him to fly as 60' in heavy armor? The bigger problem, one that is not unique to flight, is that it really put the adventuring on a stopwatch, to accomplish what they needed, before the spells wore off. Not only did this require forming a detailed plan with contingencies, it also caused the round-by-round play to feel very mechanical and gamey, rather then immersive. Unfortunately, spells like flight (and a few others) are so effective, that for some sessions, play devolved into attempting to plan for all possible outcomes, then rushing through adventuring, in order to maximize the benefits. It was often very difficult to establish a sense of foreboding and horror (the themes of the AP) when players are worrying about elevation and diagonal climb speeds, etc.
Note, flight came from a travel cleric using fly, and wizard using elemental body on himself, and fly spell on others.
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Depends on your perspective. I was an artilleryman, so my job was to shoot the enemy from far enough away that they couldn't shoot back. If they were shooting back, I wasn't doing my job well enough. Hitting something you can't see with indirect fire is enough of a challenge that I always found it pretty interesting.
For sure, RPG fights are usually more fun if the odds are a little closer. But of course, some RPG fights are extremely lopsided when one side has some overwhelming tactical advantage like flight. You don't want that all the time, but it's not always bad. Season to taste, I suppose.
But the idea that good guys are supposed to fight "fair," when "fair" means letting the bad guys get their licks in, is an extremely naive view of life or death combat.
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Yeah the old cavalier code was pretty untenable, which is why it hasn't really survived the test of time.
Despite my griping about it upthread, I find it to be fairly rare in play that you have a situation where a flyer is completely untouchable. Encounter design for 5th level and up in published material generally accounts for PC flight--though it might punish PCs who lack flight or ranged capability. Occasionally you will get a T-Rex on the plains kind of encounter where flight + ranged attacks = trivial win, but much more often you find yourself in a low ceiling dungeon, or unable to see through tree canopy, or in adverse weather conditions, or some other situation that limits the absolute superiority of flight. Good encounter design accounts for PC capabilities at a given level in a believable way without negating those capabilities outright.
More to the point, until you get to higher levels, flight is generally a limited resource that must be managed to get maximum utility--unless the players can completely control the pace and spacing of encounters, in which case a single casting of fly can last as long as they need.
Flight only changes large scale movement when everyone has it. Otherwise, you go at the speed of the slowest party member.
Similarly, in combat, if the party is being overwhelmed, they withdraw at the speed of the slowest party member.
One member with short term flight means that you can no longer use terrain obstacles to challenge the party.
It has less effect in well run combat. Yes, you now have a third dimension to deal with. But what about that fight where the party is firing into the pit the wizard just made? Unless the dropped foes have ranged attacks, it is exactly the same.
Focused fire can be hard to achieve in many parties. Add in a single flying enemy, and boom, instant focus fire. The reverse also works. Bad guys focus on the flying character.
Ways to nerf flight legally is to use the rules provided. Line of sight/effect still applies, as do cover and concealment. A low flying obscuring mist makes you untargetable to high flying bad guys. Winds can make flying more difficult. You don't have to have a storm. It could be gusts in a narrow canyon or thermals over a lava pit. Even a strong breeze that doesn't cause you to fall but instead causes you to drift to the side unless you spend movement to stay in place.
I have played for over thirty years. Long term flight has essentially been like teleport, but not as fast. That is, GM travelogue of what you pass, and most random encounters are things you see happening below you. Few actually occur in the air. It's effect on the plot is essentially: you were in location A, and after flying X hours, you are at location B where the next part of the adventure awaits. Heck, even horses and wagons did that back at 2nd and 3rd level unless you hit a random encounter. As a GM, that is expected. Long distance travel is essentially a hand-wave as far as the story goes. Unless the story is about the travel. If you are establishing a trade route, you need to stop at every little place along the way. If you are following one, you skip ahead to the destination point.
I don't see flight to be an issue. A disparity in who can and cannot fly can cause problems. After a certain point, everyone should be able to move through the air via spell or magic item.
/cevah
PS: As to fighting fair, I have a druid that thinks that is appropriate only in a contest. In reality, you want to kill the opponent before he knows you are even there.
One thing that bothers me about this discussion is that many folks posit the use of a fly spell out in the wilderness to somehow gain incredible advantages over land-bound foes... without taking into account the incredible vulnerability of that flying wizard.
I mean, who said that our fantasy skies were *empty* of hungry predators? I'm pretty sure there are all manner of giant eagles, griffons, wyverns, harpies and dragons, most of whom have *excellent* eyesight and high fly speeds and would very much appreciate a crunchy wizard snack.
Any DM being annoyed by that pesky flying wizard could give him a flat chance of being spotted by some airborne horror whose territory he has unwittingly entered, simply by virtue of flying above the protective forest canopy.
A DM facing flight-capable PCs simply has to be more creative. Some situations will be hard to fit on a battle map. Sometimes the PCs will overcome seemingly impossible obstacles. That's great - the DM should let 'em shine. But other times, that easy fly-based waltz past land-hugging defenses will prove to be far less easy than they imagined, and the air route will prove more hazardous than ever the land route could have been.
So hey, folks, untwist those knickers. Fly and Overland Flight are cool. DMs can put their narrative power to use. Just be as (or more) creative as your players, that's what makes you the DM in the first place.
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There were two other problems. The first being all of the awkwardness of doing 3-D movement on a flat grid, and dealing with various rules issues - for example, does the fighters armor training allow him to fly as 60' in heavy armor? The bigger problem, one that is not unique to flight, is that it really put the adventuring on a stopwatch, to accomplish what they needed, before the spells wore off. Not only did this require forming a detailed plan with contingencies, it also caused the round-by-round play to feel very mechanical and gamey, rather then immersive. Unfortunately, spells like flight (and a few others) are so effective, that for some sessions, play devolved into attempting to plan for all possible outcomes, then rushing through adventuring, in order to maximize the benefits. It was often very difficult to establish a sense of foreboding and horror (the themes of the AP) when players are worrying about elevation and diagonal climb speeds, etc.
We use an inverted dice box, you know the rectangular tranpararent plastic ones that fit seven dice inside. Put the flyer on top and a dice next to them that indicates how many squares up they are. This makes it really clear who is flying and who isn't. You can even put a mini below the wizard under the container if the wizard is directly above them. I haven't yet found a way of having a creature above the flying wizard without risking your mini collection with a tower of plastic!
The simplest was of running down minute per level spells is to hide a magic item in a room. Most players will use detect magic if they have it in conjunction with searching so three rounds for the spell plus working out how to get at the object. Then they identify it another few rounds, then if it something that can benefit any player, at least a few minutes deciding who can use it. Take any discussion around the table as time off the spell. Just one method.
In reference to Charlie Bell: I certainly don't think their is anything evil about attacking from a distance, otherwise Robin Hood would be a bad guy. Only in some cultural codes, I'm thinking of the Legend of Five Rings samurai or some Cavaliers. Ironically really world samurai frequently trained with massive bows and also rode horses but I love L5R enough that I forgive these departures.
My respect also goes out to anyone serving or having served in the armed forces. We owe you a hell of a lot.
The flight rules need a lot less granularity. Something like running altitude in 50' or 100' increments.So, if I want to fly over the owlbear, jabbing him with my reach weapon, in a thirty foot high cavern, what would your ruling be?Are you kidding? The Eiffel tower's base arch is more than a factor of ten higher than that and flying under it is considered a major feat of daredevilry. A wizard is not that much smaller than a small biplane. Nothing bigger than tiny should even think of flying under a 30' ceiling and with an uneven ceiling nothing bigger than tiny should actually do so except as a means to commit suicide.
Stuff like bats and imps can be defined as out of reach or in reach and nothing with nonzero reach should be able to fly at all.
Magic flight is probably a fair bit better than using a plane.
A biplane is going to be at least Huge size class, and they can't hover. If they flew as slowly as someone under a Fly spell, they'd stall. (Flying 60 feet a round is about 7mph I think?) Some kind of large quadcopter might be a better comparison.
Yes, realistically dire bats and dragons shouldn't be able to fly. But this is Pathfinder. The gravity is probably lower.