Hi,
Just curious on the design behind swashbucklers save design and why it got a good reflex save but not a good fortitude?
Since its parent classes of fighter and gunslinger have good forts, especially GS since to me they seem pretty much the same concept wise in combat that they avoid being hit and are "daring" with grit/panache.
Curious what people believe was the design idea behind the decision, any thoughts?
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Gunslingers in stories tend to be very tough and resilient, surviving various things like being tied to trees and left to die or being buried up to the neck and left to die or being poisoned and left to die... You get the picture.
By contrast, swashbucklers don't run into that sort of thing as often in their stories, or at least not to the same degree. The Musketeers wooed ladies to get food when hungry rather than trecking across the desert with nothing.
While mechanically interchangeable, grit and panache are very different concepts. Panache is stylish flair, while grit is tough determination.
Gunslingers in stories tend to be very tough and resilient, surviving various things like being tied to trees and left to die or being buried up to the neck and left to die or being poisoned and left to die... You get the picture.
By contrast, swashbucklers don't run into that sort of thing as often in their stories, or at least not to the same degree. The Musketeers wooed ladies to get food when hungry rather than trecking across the desert with nothing.
While mechanically interchangeable, grit and panache are very different concepts. Panache is stylish flair, while grit is tough determination.
Thanks for the reply.
This is exactly the kind of info that I was missing thus am happy to know. That does change my opinion flavor wise indeed. While mechanically I consider it the wrong design decision, flavor wise it seems good. Never read the three musketeers or King's gunslinger.
I haven't read any gunslinger books myself, but they show up occasionally in other media, so I'm going more by the gist of what I've picked up from comics, movies, and the like.
Glad I could help!
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It wouldn't have been so bad if the Swashbuckler's charmed life granted a constant cha bonus to fort saves if not both fort and will. I have never played a martial class and so dreaded making fort saves. Also not getting dex to damage built into the class was poor design as well.
It wouldn't have been so bad if the Swashbuckler's charmed life granted a constant cha bonus to fort saves if not both fort and will. I have never played a martial class and so dreaded making fort saves. Also not getting dex to damage built into the class was poor design as well.
Their precise strike outpaces a dex to damage pretty rapidly though. Frankly i'm not certain swashbuckler wont out damage most of the other martials by mid level because of it. Especially since you can get dex to damage with a relatively small feat investment.
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You see, good saves are a "nice thing" and Swashbucklers don't cast spells, so...
Yes but a creature immune to crits/precision damage is immune to precise strike. Also the gunslinger gets dex to damage and it's attacks count as touch attacks at close range.
Yes but a creature immune to crits/precision damage is immune to precise strike. Also the gunslinger gets dex to damage and it's attacks count as touch attacks at close range.
There reeally aren't very many of those though.
Elementals, Incorporeals, Oozes, Aeons swarms and 50% chance of proteans. Annoying when it comes up but hardly the worlds most common array of monsters, and almost never a big bad.
It wouldn't have been so bad if the Swashbuckler's charmed life granted a constant cha bonus to fort saves if not both fort and will. I have never played a martial class and so dreaded making fort saves. Also not getting dex to damage built into the class was poor design as well.Their precise strike outpaces a dex to damage pretty rapidly though. Frankly i'm not certain swashbuckler wont out damage most of the other martials by mid level because of it. Especially since you can get dex to damage with a relatively small feat investment.
It isn't like you can't make a strength build for swashbucklers. Heck, not only is it not painful, it has its advantages.
The class basically mitigates most of the reasons to go dex to damage- reflex is hteir good save, they have great AC between their AC booster and bucklers (for easy enhancement), and they already boost initiative.
The advantage of strength builds is that you can use power attack and pick up a 2 handed weapon when things get 'elemental-y'.
Not sure whether precise strike entirely outspaces just basic 2 handing on a full BAB class though, at least until way later. I view it more of a mechanic to encourage 'suboptimal' styles like 1 handed/1weapon, throwing, and non TWF sword and board.
Gunslingers in stories tend to be very tough and resilient, surviving various things like being tied to trees and left to die or being buried up to the neck and left to die or being poisoned and left to die... You get the picture.
By contrast, swashbucklers don't run into that sort of thing as often in their stories, or at least not to the same degree. The Musketeers wooed ladies to get food when hungry rather than trecking across the desert with nothing.
While mechanically interchangeable, grit and panache are very different concepts. Panache is stylish flair, while grit is tough determination.
Depends on the Swashbuckler. Wesley is pretty famously resilient against poison.
You could easily make an argument for any selection of saves. Paizo decided "reflex only" because... they wanted the Swashbuckler to be terrible, I guess? Either that or they hilariously overvalue the reflex save.
Edit: math is bad recalculating, yeah it pulls ahead mid level
Well, theorycraft here.
Lets assume all stats and enchantments are equal on both the swashbuckler and the 2hander. Give em both 18 str and power attack.
At level 1 you're looking at an average of 10 or so from the swashbuckler and 16 from the 2 hander...advantage 2 hander
At level 4 though, you're looking at 16 from the swashbuckler and 19 from the 2 hander, the swashbuckler begins closing the gap
By level 6 the swashbuckler has tied 19 to 19 plus he's had a 25% crit chance for a level.
At level 8 you've got 23 from the swashbuckler vs 23ish for the 2 hander.
By level 10 The swashbuckler is averaging 26 to the continued 23ish of a 2 hander.
The gap continues to widen as the swashbuckler gains +6 damage for every 4 levels gained w power attack+ precise strike vs the 2 hander gaining 3.
Now the barbarian has some wiggle room with rage and two weapon fighting via ranger or slayer (who can ignore the high dex requirement of that feat chain) can probably compete or keep up pretty decently, but opportune parry and riposte is pretty beastly for snaking bonus attacks in and you're rocking crits about as often as is possible within the combat system.
Add to that swashbucklers access to bonus feats as though they were a fighter, and for a relatively small feat tax you might be able to treat that rapier as a warpriest sacred weapon (unsure of the interaction between "counts as fighter levels for combat feats" and the combat feat that lets you select an advanced weapon training) But you can take specialization and greater/etc so fighter is kind of out of the running.
The only classes i really start to wonder about as regards raw damage output are barbarian/bloodrager and order of the flame cavalier and even then in a straight up head to head i give the nod to the swashbuckler for higher initiatives in most builds thanks to class abilities and no maneuver check automatically successful if you hit disarms and trips.
Edit: and yeah precise strike doesn't multiply on a crit but your base damage stat, enchantments, feats, and power attack still do so unless you're REALLY outpaced in base stat + power attack you'll likely still end up critting a bit harder.
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Precise Strike would basically need to be equal to 50% of your strength modifier and 50% of your power attack bonus to pull even- probably a bit more, because it isn't multiplied on crits. So if your strength modifier + power attack bonus is less than that, then going dexterity-based swashbuckler is probably worth it.
While it isn't multiplied on crits - it also doesn't have the accuracy penalty involved with PA - which is especially detrimental to Swashbucklers due to their Parry & Riposte mechanics.
In The Pricess Bride, Westly intentionally poisoned himself for years until he became immune and Inigo Montoya survived what was supposed to be a killing throw through sheer toughness. I'd say a high fort save would fit Swashbucklers just fine, thematically speaking.
Dip Paladin (maybe Divine Hunter). All your Fort saves are now quite good enough.
That doesn't help Chaotic Swashbucklers at all.
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That doesn't help Chaotic Swashbucklers at all.
Or LN Swashbucklers, or NE Swashbucklers, or LG Swashbucklers who tell lies.
So basically, it doesn't help anyone.
In The Pricess Bride, Westly intentionally poisoned himself for years until he became immune and Inigo Montoya survived what was supposed to be a killing throw through sheer toughness. I'd say a high fort save would fit Swashbucklers just fine, thematically speaking.
Him being MOSTLY dead is due to a failed will save vs. torture devices.
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It can affect up to 2/9 of all swashbuckler alignments.That doesn't help Chaotic Swashbucklers at all.Or LN Swashbucklers, or NE Swashbucklers, or LG Swashbucklers who tell lies.
So basically, it doesn't help anyone.
4/9, thanks to the Insinuator Antipaladin archetype.
Sorry; I deleted the post I think you're responding to (pointing out that Charmed Life has limited uses per day versus unlimited saves to make by mid-levels, plus making you expend it before you roll and know if it's going to even make a difference). I'm pretty bitter about the way the swashbuckler turned out, but complaining about it doesn't help at this point and I try not to add meaningless negativity. :)
If they'd given swashbucklers a version of divine grace, that would go a long way toward making them viable.
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Fighter is straight-out better than Swashbuckler post-WMH.
The Swashbuckler was completely obsoleted in the book it was released in by the Daring Champion Cavalier, which is just the same concept but on a better chassis.
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Fighter is straight-out better than Swashbuckler post-WMH.
The Swashbuckler was completely obsoleted in the book it was released in by the Daring Champion Cavalier, which is just the same concept but on a better chassis.
Initially yes - but they errata'd Daring Champion to make them lose Parry & Riposte. (That and Precise Strike are the Swash's 2 distinguishing features.)
Swashbuckler still isn't a great class, but it's an awesome 1 level dip.
Fighter is straight-out better than Swashbuckler post-WMH.
The Swashbuckler was completely obsoleted in the book it was released in by the Daring Champion Cavalier, which is just the same concept but on a better chassis.
A few months ago, they nerfed all the ways non-Swashbucklers could get Swashbuckler-esque features.
Contributor
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A few months ago, they nerfed all the ways non-Swashbucklers could get Swashbuckler-esque features.Fighter is straight-out better than Swashbuckler post-WMH.
The Swashbuckler was completely obsoleted in the book it was released in by the Daring Champion Cavalier, which is just the same concept but on a better chassis.
There's one left, I think. Flamboyant Arcana?
Oh, ugh, I forgot about DC's losing Parry and Riposte.
Still, I'd rather take good fort save and the Order abilities than the crap the Swash is stuck with.
Flamboyant Arcana was errata'ed so that the Deeds it uses require an Arcane Pool, as they cannot be 'powered' with Panache. That stops anyone from VMC'ing into it. As far as actual Magi using it, they can still get Opportune Parry and Riposte but the errata that sets their effective Swashbuckler level to 0 leaves them precious few Deeds worth poaching with Arcane Deed.