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Does an angel's protective aura (and the constant lesser globe of invulnerability it provides) permanently prevent it from ever using any of its personal or touch range spell-like abilities (or spells) of 3rd level or below?
If not, how does it work?
Corollaries:
Is a globe of invulnerability intended to broadly suppress all spellcasting below the given level, regardless of whether offensive or defensive, and regardless of whether performed by the caster, their enemies, or their allies?
If so, does this hold true for an angel's protective aura?
Can an angel's protective aura or the lesser globe of invulnerability it provides be voluntarily dismissed? If so, what sort of action does it take to dismiss it and reinstate it?
Are there any rules for the dismissal or suppression of auras in general?
Relevant Quotes:
Protective Aura (Su) wrote:
Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the angel. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals angel's HD). The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in an angel's statistics block.
Lesser Globe of Invulnerability wrote:
An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower. The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the lesser globe of invulnerability. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe. Excluded effects include spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from items.
That certainly might have been the intent of the ability, and it looks like several people from those other threads shared your interpretation. However, it seems to me that as the aura is written, only the +4 bonus is limited by alignment (plus magic circle against evil, as normal). The word "otherwise" sets the latter effects apart to some extent, so the lesser globe of invulnerability might just be the ordinary spell effect.
Regardless, I hope this thread manages to bring some sort of clarification. Even among people who believe the angelic protective aura is functional as written, many of them seem to believe so for very different reasons.
The only affects evil one looks to be the most likely to me. Much like how Protection from Evil as written seems to separate out the bonus vs evil from the protection from mind control, but was explained to only protect against mind control from evil sources after all, this too has an apparent separation which is most likely illusory.
A globe of invulnerability only affects spells cast into it from the outside. You can cast spells within the globe and even cast spells through the globe. You can be inside a globe of invulnerability and cast a fire ball targeting just outside the globe and be protected by the globe while those outside are affected.
School abjuration; Level sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a glass or crystal bead)
Range 10 ft.
Area 10-ft.-radius spherical emanation, centered on you
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower. The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the lesser globe of invulnerability. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe. Excluded effects include spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from items. Any type of spell, however, can be cast through or out of the magical globe. Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast. The globe can be brought down by a dispel magic spell. You can leave and return to the globe without penalty.
Note that spell effects are not disrupted unless their effects enter the globe, and even then they are merely suppressed, not dispelled.
Mysterious Stranger, I don't think that's quite right.
Lesser Globe of Invulnerability wrote:
The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the lesser globe of invulnerability. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe. Excluded effects include spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from items. Any type of spell, however, can be cast through or out of the magical globe.
Google wrote:
through - moving in one side and out of the other side of (an opening, channel, or location).
Spells cast through the globe are those originating on one side and having a target or area or effect or whatever on the other. Those are allowed.
Spells originating within the globe and targeting someone else within the globe are not being cast through the globe, they are being cast within the globe, and are explicitly not allowed.
You even showed this in your own phrasing, that "within the globe" and "through the globe" are different things.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
You can cast spells within the globe and even cast spells through the globe.
Spells cast through are allowed, spells cast within are not.
In other words, anything inside the globe is off-limits, no matter where the spell originates. Anything outside the globe is fair game, no matter where the spell originates.
Does that seem right to you?
Each time someone responds, I find myself realizing that this is an even more complicated situation than I had thought.
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I noted the same thing in one my earlier thread linked above. As written, the aura makes a lot of spell-like abilities of angels absolutely useless. Fact is, the spell lesser globe of invulnerability is broken as written and needs to be redesigned.
Here's my proposal that, I think, captures RAI (changes in bold):
Quote:
An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower cast from outside the globe. The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the lesser globe of invulnerability. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe. Excluded effects include spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from items. Any type of spell, however, can be cast within, through or out of the magical globe. Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells that already in effect within the globe when it is cast or spells cast on targets outside the globe. The globe can be brought down by a dispel magic spell. You can leave and return to the globe without penalty.
Note that spell effects are not disrupted unless their effects enter the globe, and even then they are merely suppressed, not dispelled.
If a given spell has more than one level depending on which character class is casting it, use the level appropriate to the caster to determine whether lesser globe of invulnerability stops it.
Mysterious Stranger, I don't think that's quite right.
Lesser Globe of Invulnerability wrote:
The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the lesser globe of invulnerability. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe. Excluded effects include spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from items. Any type of spell, however, can be cast through or out of the magical globe.
Google wrote:
through - moving in one side and out of the other side of (an opening, channel, or location).
Spells cast through the globe are those originating on one side and having a target or area or effect or whatever on the other. Those are allowed.
Spells originating within the globe and targeting someone else within the globe are not being cast through the globe, they are being cast within the globe, and are explicitly not allowed.
You even showed this in your own phrasing, that "within the globe" and "through the globe" are different things.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
You can cast spells within the globe and even cast spells through the globe.
Spells cast through are allowed, spells cast within are not.
In other words, anything inside the globe is off-limits, no matter where the spell originates. Anything outside the globe is fair game, no matter where the spell originates.
Does that seem right to you?
Each time someone responds, I find myself realizing that this is an even more complicated situation than I had thought.
"Any type of spell, however, can be cast through or out of the magical globe"
So someone within the globe can cast magic missiles at a target outside the globe.
And: "Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast." so you suppress the globe, cast your spells, the reactivate it and the spells stay.
I used to remember an example where it used mirror images entering the globe as winking out of existence, but I only have the SRD to go by and they tend to excise examples and other text. I don't know if the rulebook itself might have it.
Protective Aura (Su) Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the leonal. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals leonal's HD). The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in a leonal's stat block.
For sure it can be reactivated as a free action. I am fairly sure to have read that most SU ability can be suppressed by the creature with them, but at this time I can't find the citation.
With the normal globe cast as a spell, you cast the spells before casting the globe of invulnerability, or you step out of it, cast the spells, then reenter.
As the spell say "spells already in effect when the globe is cast." it is possible that spell cast outside the globe but after it has been cast will be suppressed. A bit strange, but possible.
If you manage to find that rule, let my know, because I've had no luck finding anything of the sort. Hence my question:
Avoron wrote:
Can an angel's protective aura or the lesser globe of invulnerability it provides be voluntarily dismissed? If so, what sort of action does it take to dismiss it and reinstate it?
Are there any rules for the dismissal or suppression of auras in general?
The closest we have seems to be a 3.5 customer service response saying it can be deactivated as a standard action and reactivated as a free action. But there doesn't seem to be any ruling like that for Pathfinder.
Maybe it works like a constant spell-like ability, and can be deactivated as a standard action and reactivated as a swift action.
Anyone have any more thoughts? Relevant rules? Alternative explanations that make everything work out? Wild speculations on how an ambiguity like this has gone unaddressed since the Bestiary? FAQ clicks?
I was wondering about similar questions related to the Cetaceal Agathion. It seems like bringing her along as an ally could be kind of disruptive since it would stop the party from using low level spells when she's nearby. It would be nice if she could suppress just the Globe of Invulnerability part since the rest seems rather nice.
Yes, it remains a significant and pervasive issue among many of the game's outsiders.
Interfering with spells of party members is one thing, but when an agathion is permanently prevented from using its own spell-like abilities, you know something is wrong. Constant speak with animals? Nope. At-will light? Nope. 7/day remove disease? Nope.
If this question doesn't get answered by Paizo in the near future, try pointing out the issue to your GM, directing them to the 3.5 FAQ linked above, and hoping for leniency.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find any way around the Angel's Protective Aura in the Pathfinder wording.
In 3.5 it doesn't actually allow them to lower it either from what I see. It does specify that it can be dispelled (the angel can restore it as a free action), this is an apparent exception to Supernatural abilities being able to be dispelled. That wording was dropped in Pathfinder it seems.
Otherwise, I tried to think maybe since the aura otherwise functioned as magic circle against evil and lesser glove of invulnerability that perhaps meant the angel had the option to Dismiss (D) it, but that isn't an option for magic circle against evil, unlike protection from evil. So that route didn't come out.
It's apparently going to take an official change to the ability for anyone in the aura to cast 3rd level or lower spells or a clarification that the Protective Aura only applies against evil attacks in its entirety. That or just assume it is working the way it's intended, strange as that seems.
In 3.5 it doesn't actually allow them to lower it either from what I see.
What do you mean by "lower it?" Seems like 3.5 made dismissing and reinstating it it pretty clearly allowed.
Customer Service wrote:
the entire effect can be dismissed as a standard action... It is a standard action to dismiss and a free action to re-engage it
Pizza Lord wrote:
It's apparently going to take an official change to the ability for anyone in the aura to cast 3rd level or lower spells or a clarification that the Protective Aura only applies against evil attacks in its entirety.
So let's try to get this thread as many FAQ clicks as possible to make that happen.
Pizza Lord wrote:
That or just assume it is working the way it's intended, strange as that seems.
I know this seems like the safest option, but it just doesn't make sense. Every outsider with a protective aura will have several spells or spell-like abilities that it can literally never use.
I was reading from the D20SRD page since all my physical 3.5 books are elsewhere. So if Customer Service has said otherwise, I don't dispute them, since I was pretty sure that was the case. I double-checked though and didn't see it.
If the Globe of Invulnerability only worked against spells from Evil sources that might be an interesting and powerful option. That said, I suspect that Paizo might not answer a corner case like this and the rest of the player community might say, "Quit your whining and just deactivate the Aura when you want to use lower level SLAs!"
Nevertheless, I have clicked FAQ. Even getting a firm answer that some of the outsider's SLAs won't work due to her aura would be an improvement over uncertainty, especially if it comes with some information on how the aura can be lowered and restored (presumably the same as in 3.5 though it would be nice to see something in the actual FAQ rather than just an old WotC customer service email)
I was reading from the D20SRD page since all my physical 3.5 books are elsewhere. So if Customer Service has said otherwise, I don't dispute them, since I was pretty sure that was the case. I double-checked though and didn't see it.
Hopefully someone can you bring you satisfaction.
Wrong customer service, I think. He was quoting the 3.5 Customer Service team, as posted on a thread linked several posts back. That company (WotC) often had slight to moderate (and occasionally major) rulings different than Paizo, despite the fact that Pathfinder is derived by Paizo from 3.5.
I suspect that Paizo might not answer a corner case like this
I get what you're saying, but this really isn't a corner case. This problem will consistently and permanently prevent an entire group of some of Pathfinder's most classic creatures from legally using their basic abilities, and it's been around since the Bestiary was published. Paizo might as well have given dragons an aura that prevents flight.
Devilkiller wrote:
Nevertheless, I have clicked FAQ. Even getting a firm answer that some of the outsider's SLAs won't work due to her aura would be an improvement over uncertainty, especially if it comes with some information on how the aura can be lowered and restored (presumably the same as in 3.5 though it would be nice to see something in the actual FAQ rather than just an old WotC customer service email)
Yeah, a couple of the threads I linked to earlier were concerned with the implications for that spell in particular. It's generally not quite as prominent a problem, because the aura granted by the spell isn't exactly permanent. But the aura still creates distinct difficulties for anyone using it, and the confusion around the aura made by that spell demonstrate how it can be very much a PC-related issue.
