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15 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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I typically fight using a lance, while mounted.
I have seen in these boards reasoned arguments that I should add my STR modifier to damage because I am using the weapon one-handed. I have also seen reasoned arguments that I should add 1.5x STR modifier to damage because the lance is still a two-handed weapon. The FAQ that says the lance gets the -1/+3 damage progression seems to favor the latter argument.
What say you?
FAQ no. 1
FAQ no. 2
Don't ask me how to reconcile those, because I really don't know.
Snowblind wrote: FAQ no. 1
FAQ no. 2
Don't ask me how to reconcile those, because I really don't know.
Those two FAQs are why I started this thread.
One way to reconcile them is this:
Core Rulebook wrote: While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand. It does not say that I treat the lance as a one-handed weapon, just that I can wield it in one hand. Also, being mounted is not a feat or special ability. But maybe I'm just playing with semantics.
Snowblind wrote: FAQ no. 1
FAQ no. 2
Don't ask me how to reconcile those, because I really don't know.
Simply, "treat as a one-handed weapon" or such change the weapon type to one-handed, so the weapon then follows one-handed weapon rules. "Wield in one-hand" just alters how the weapon is physically carried by the character, nothing else.
Think of light, one-handed, and two-handed as light, medium, and heavy weapons. Light can only wielded in one-hand, medium can be wielded in one or two, and heavy only two-handed. The first wording tells you to change weapon type for all purposes, for example heavy to medium. The second wording just lets you hold a heavy weapon in one hand.
Calth wrote: Snowblind wrote: FAQ no. 1
FAQ no. 2
Don't ask me how to reconcile those, because I really don't know.
Simply, "treat as a one-handed weapon" or such change the weapon type to one-handed, so the weapon then follows one-handed weapon rules. "Wield in one-hand" just alters how the weapon is physically carried by the character, nothing else.
Think of light, one-handed, and two-handed as light, medium, and heavy weapons. Light can only wielded in one-hand, medium can be wielded in one or two, and heavy only two-handed. The first wording tells you to change weapon type for all purposes, for example heavy to medium. The second wording just lets you hold a heavy weapon in one hand. So I am not changing the weapon type, and I get 1.5x STR. Thank you.
Calth wrote: Snowblind wrote: FAQ no. 1
FAQ no. 2
Don't ask me how to reconcile those, because I really don't know.
Simply, "treat as a one-handed weapon" or such change the weapon type to one-handed, so the weapon then follows one-handed weapon rules. "Wield in one-hand" just alters how the weapon is physically carried by the character, nothing else.
Think of light, one-handed, and two-handed as light, medium, and heavy weapons. Light can only wielded in one-hand, medium can be wielded in one or two, and heavy only two-handed. The first wording tells you to change weapon type for all purposes, for example heavy to medium. The second wording just lets you hold a heavy weapon in one hand. I already thought of that reasoning, but read the FAQs very carefully.
Two Handed Weapons in One Hand wrote: If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on. As far as I can tell, the FAQ doesn't just apply to effects that say "treat as a one-handed weapon" or similar, but instead applies any time a character is wielding a two handed weapon in one hand, like when wielding a Lance and Shield while charging.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
This also goes for the Earth Breaker when wielded with a Klar when using the Thunder and Fang feat. This is the main reason the wording of the feat was changed.
That resulted in a huge thread of "but the rules don' say I can't."
Silly power gamers wanting to double wield two handed weapons... jeesh.
Snowblind wrote:
I already thought of that reasoning, but read the FAQs very carefully.
Two Handed Weapons in One Hand wrote wrote:
If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on. As far as I can tell, the FAQ doesn't just apply to effects that say "treat as a one-handed weapon" or similar, but instead applies any time a character is wielding a two handed weapon in one hand, like when wielding a Lance and Shield while charging.
Yeah, at first reading, that's a little confusing, but the reason for that line is that you can still wield the "heavy" treated as "medium" weapon in two-hands for the normal two-handed damage. The question itself restricts the discussion to category transformations.
I think this is kind of a loophole in the rules because of the contradiction of those two FAQs. I clicked the FAQ button.
I already thought of that reasoning, but read the FAQs very carefully.
Two Handed Weapons in One Hand wrote: If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on. As far as I can tell, the FAQ doesn't just apply to effects that say "treat as a one-handed weapon" or similar, but instead applies any time a character is wielding a two handed weapon in one hand, like when wielding a Lance and Shield while charging. I did read the FAQs carefully. They contradict each other.
FAQ wrote: Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?
Yes.
Weapons, Two-Handed in One Hand: When a feat or other special ability says to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon, does it get treated as one or two handed weapon for the purposes of how to apply the Strength modifier or the Power Attack feat?
If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on.
When I am using a lance while mounted, I am not using a feat or special ability, which is why I think the 1.5 STR bonus applies.
You are using a special ability, that of the lance.
The easiest way to find the answer to this is to look at the simple Longsword. It, like most other one handed weapons (note the Rapier specifically calls out that it cannot be) can be wielded in two hands to apply the 1.5 Str bonus and the stronger power attack ratio. Doing so does not make it a 2 handed weapon, but a 1 handed weapon wielded in 2 hands.
Its not about the size of the weapon, its about the strength youre putting behind it by using two hands, hence Strength bonus, not a bonus to the weapons base damage.
So a lance in one hand does 1x str.
thaX wrote: This also goes for the Earth Breaker when wielded with a Klar when using the Thunder and Fang feat. This is the main reason the wording of the feat was changed.
That resulted in a huge thread of "but the rules don' say I can't."
Silly power gamers wanting to double wield two handed weapons... jeesh.
For the last time ThaX, the rules say you can.
You took personal offense to people disagreeing with your position and used your own lack of an imagination as a key arguement, dont act like those who disagreed with you were the unreasonable ones.
Baval wrote: You are using a special ability, that of the lance.
The easiest way to find the answer to this is to look at the simple Longsword. It, like most other one handed weapons (note the Rapier specifically calls out that it cannot be) can be wielded in two hands to apply the 1.5 Str bonus and the stronger power attack ratio. Doing so does not make it a 2 handed weapon, but a 1 handed weapon wielded in 2 hands.
Its not about the size of the weapon, its about the strength youre putting behind it by using two hands, hence Strength bonus, not a bonus to the weapons base damage.
So a lance in one hand does 1x str.
Baval, I disagree with your analysis here. As I understand the phrase, a special ability (similar to a feat) is an ability you possess, not a property of the weapon.
The Thunder and Fang feat allows you to treat an earth breaker as if it were a one-handed weapon; the Dorn-Dergar Mater feat allows you to treat the dorn-dergar as if it were a one-handed weapon. If you use either of these feats, the STR bonus drops, and the power attack bonus drops.
But this is why I started the thread. Players of reason and good will disagree on this point.
If it is the force you put behind it, do you put your mount's strength because that is the force you are using?
Grumiō Grumiōnis wrote: Baval wrote: You are using a special ability, that of the lance.
The easiest way to find the answer to this is to look at the simple Longsword. It, like most other one handed weapons (note the Rapier specifically calls out that it cannot be) can be wielded in two hands to apply the 1.5 Str bonus and the stronger power attack ratio. Doing so does not make it a 2 handed weapon, but a 1 handed weapon wielded in 2 hands.
Its not about the size of the weapon, its about the strength youre putting behind it by using two hands, hence Strength bonus, not a bonus to the weapons base damage.
So a lance in one hand does 1x str.
Baval, I disagree with your analysis here. As I understand the phrase, a special ability (similar to a feat) is an ability you possess, not a property of the weapon.
The Thunder and Fang feat allows you to treat an earth breaker as if it were a one-handed weapon; the Dorn-Dergar Mater feat allows you to treat the dorn-dergar as if it were a one-handed weapon. If you use either of these feats, the STR bonus drops, and the power attack bonus drops.
But this is why I started the thread. Players of reason and good will disagree on this point. youre free to disagree with my analysis, but in order to do so in good faith you must first explain which "special ability" allows my Longsword held in two hands do 1.5 strength damage. Your ruling must be consistent to hold water
Your understanding and interpretation is that a Lance is a 2 handed weapon, and thus deals 2 handed weapon damage unless a "special ability" modifies it. You define "special ability" as "an ability you possess, not a property of the weapon". Being able to wield a Longsword in 2 hands is a property of the weapon, no an ability you posses, and therefore by your ruling a Longsword held in 2 hands should deal normal 1 handed damage.
Baval, I see your point. I absolutely agree that a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands gets 1.5x STR damage. That is not a special ability; anyone can wield a longsword two-handed. If you could wield a light weapon two-handed and get 1.5x STR, that would be a special ability.
A large character can wield a medium lance one-handed, and would not get 1.5x STR modifier.
If I understand the mechanics of the thing correctly, a mounted combatant uses something to brace the lance, effectively a "second hand" on the weapon. At least that is how I always thought it worked. That is why I think 1.5x STR applies in the specific case of the lance.
Of all two-handed weapons, only the lance can be wielded in one hand by a mounted combatant (without a special feat). If it were possible to wield any two-handed weapon in one hand, simply by virtue of being mounted, then I would not argue for 1.5x STR on the lance, or on any other two-handed weapon.
Would you apply this same sort of logic for a Bastard Sword wielded in one hand? Its ability is unique to it as well.
As for bracing it while mounted, there are some armors and lances designed to interlock to a degree, but mostly the forearm to the lance. Its still supported entirely in one hand, if it wasnt it wouldnt have freedom of movement to actually hit anyone that wasnt already in its path.
Most of the damage of a lance is actually from the momentum of the horse, which is why it deals double damage on a mounted charge and is a pretty bad weapon otherwise. If it was more realistic, the lance would use the horses strength or some sliding modifiers based on speed.
Further consider balance; a lance on a charge does double, triple, even quadruple damage on a charge based on class and feats. If its counted as 1.5 then youre doing 3x, 4.5x, or 6x your strength modifier on a charge. This can be huge, especially if it crits too. Youre not giving anything up to maintain these numbers either, since you still have your offhand free.
Also, the damage rules talk about how many hands youre using to hold the weapon, not how many hands the weapon is supposed to be used in.
Quote:
When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapons with two hands. All signs, logically, rules wise, and as written seem to imply that a one handed lance does one handed damage. The only thing which is really on your side in this as far as I can see is the one FAQ, and it is in fact the older of the two FAQs and one might be inclined to discard it as "overruled by a later ruling"
I would not apply the logic to a bastard sword. If you have the appropriate feat, you treat the bastard sword as a one-handed weapon. Then the FAQ applies that says you use 1x STR bonus. If you are using a lance one-handed while mounted, you are not treating the lance as a one-handed weapon, so that FAQ does not apply.
Baval wrote: All signs, logically, rules wise, and as written seem to imply that a one handed lance does one handed damage. The only thing which is really on your side in this as far as I can see is the one FAQ, and it is in fact the older of the two FAQs and one might be inclined to discard it as "overruled by a later ruling" Anyone who had a character wielding a lance in May 2013 already knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that their lance deals 1.5x Power Attack bonus because the May FAQ said so, unequivocally.
The June FAQ, on its face, does not apply to lances wielded while mounted, because the question specifically asks, "When a feat or other special ability says to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon..." The lance description doesn't include the words "treat this as a one-handed weapon," so there's no reason to even consider this FAQ when looking at lances. That was how most GMs in our area reconciled these two FAQs: "Does the ability contain the words 'treat it as a one-handed weapon' or not?"
Unfortunately...
The answer to the June FAQ uses text that seems to apply to a broader category than the question actually asked about: "If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon)..." Unless you read the answer very closely (with no context of the May FAQ), it's easy to miss that.
Also, in most cases, when a new FAQ overrides an older one, it includes some text acknowledging that. The June FAQ does not, so many people will assume it does not intend to override the May FAQ. This might make them ignore the apparent "broadening" of the applicable items and restrict the June FAQ to just those items actually asked about in the question.
I'm flagging this for a new FAQ to resolve the conflict between these two: either FAQ 2 needs to override FAQ 1, or FAQ 2 needs to be revised to apply only to those items that say "treat it as a one-handed weapon" (which is probably how most people are ruling it).
Without reading everything here, there is no contradiction.
It has to do with a very precise reading unfortunately.
Off the top of my head, the lance is the only exception to the the other FAQ and it is because of the way both FAQs are worded.
The lance says you may wield it with one hand.
Pretty much any other item or ability that says you may wield it as a one handed weapon.
And that is the difference, everything else effectively gets it's weapon category changed.
The two FAQ clearly clash. However, only one specifically calls out lances so I say go with that one. Extra bonus. Others may state the most recent FAQ is the most recent ruling.
Past that, this clearly needs to be focused on, as FAQ should clear up matters not muddy them.
Grumiō Grumiōnis wrote: I would not apply the logic to a bastard sword. If you have the appropriate feat, you treat the bastard sword as a one-handed weapon. Then the FAQ applies that says you use 1x STR bonus. If you are using a lance one-handed while mounted, you are not treating the lance as a one-handed weapon, so that FAQ does not apply. The ability to use a Bastard Sword one handed is not the result of a feat, Exotic Weapon Proficiency only allows you to be proficient with a weapon.
Bastard Swords uniquely have their own ability which allows them to be wielded in two hands as a martial weapon, or one hand as an exotic weapon.
And for whether the Lance treated as a one handed weapon or merely held in one hand, i would say this is moot semantics, since as i previously pointed out the rules for strength modifiers to damage say
Quote: Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed
When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapons with two hands.
It does not mention what handedness the weapon is, except to say that a Light weapon cannot be held in two hands (or more specifically, you can but you dont get the bonus). It only references how many hands you are actually wielding it in. (wielding a weapon two handed as opposed to wielding a two handed weapon)
If this sub ruling doesnt apply (ala you are not wielding a weapon in two hands) it would default back to
Quote: Strength Bonus
When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
Also, the above doesnt even clash with the first FAQ, which dealt only with Power Attack, which in turn specifies weapon type instead of how many hands you are currently using
Quote: This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
Baval wrote: The ability to use a Bastard Sword one handed is not the result of a feat, Exotic Weapon Proficiency only allows you to be proficient with a weapon.
Bastard Swords uniquely have their own ability which allows them to be wielded in two hands as a martial weapon, or one hand as an exotic weapon.
That is incorrect. If you do not have EWP - Bastard Sword, you cannot use it one-handed, even with the penalty for not being proficient.
In any case, I think either interpretation can be justified under RAW. If you were the GM, I would not argue. If I were the GM, I would rule th in favor of the lance wielder.
Grumiō Grumiōnis wrote: Baval wrote: The ability to use a Bastard Sword one handed is not the result of a feat, Exotic Weapon Proficiency only allows you to be proficient with a weapon.
Bastard Swords uniquely have their own ability which allows them to be wielded in two hands as a martial weapon, or one hand as an exotic weapon.
That is incorrect. If you do not have EWP - Bastard Sword, you cannot use it one-handed, even with the penalty for not being proficient.
In any case, I think either interpretation can be justified under RAW. If you were the GM, I would not argue. If I were the GM, I would rule th in favor of the lance wielder. My entire premise of the Bastard Sword has been wrong because of one flaw in my logic: the Bastard Sword is an Exotic One-Handed weapon with a special rule allowing it to be wielded in 2 hands and counted as a Martial weapon, not the other way around. (as an aside, the FAQ answer that says its impossible to wield in one hand with a penalty is ridiculous because of this. I cant use the weapon clumsily in its intended fashion simply because theres an easier way to use it wrong? The FAQ even mistakenly calls it "a two handed weapon with an ability to be wielded in one hand". One of the reasons I take FAQs as guidelines at best.)
But it is irrelevant, because the rules for damage are still clear.
A weapon held in one hand, regardless of how many hands its supposed to be held in, does 1x strength damage. This is core rulebook and the Lance has no special rule overruling it. Theres simply no debating it without saying "I disagree with the ruling and/or wording of the core rules"
Which is fine, its your game. But it would be a house rule.
Baval, the more I think about it, the more I realize you've got the right of it. You have logically countered every argument I could think of.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Diminuendo wrote: thaX wrote: This also goes for the Earth Breaker when wielded with a Klar when using the Thunder and Fang feat. This is the main reason the wording of the feat was changed.
That resulted in a huge thread of "but the rules don' say I can't."
Silly power gamers wanting to double wield two handed weapons... jeesh.
For the last time ThaX, the rules say you can.
You took personal offense to people disagreeing with your position and used your own lack of an imagination as a key arguement, dont act like those who disagreed with you were the unreasonable ones. It was nice to read the thread again. Thank you for that. Here, some input from JJ that is relevant.
James Jacob says...
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