Most of my experience with the system has been levels 1-5.
If you have play experience at 10+, I'm interested to hear about how higher level PC abilities/monsters/spells have mixed at your table.
I played a multiclassed monk/warlock from level 8th to 16th; then got fast forwarded to level 20th. The multiclass combo started to really synergize around 10th-11th, and if I remember well, that's when most other characters started to have abilities that really stood out from one another.
Damage output goes up fast, but so are the hp of enemies. Interestingly enough, we had a harder time against numerous weaker opponents than single, more powerful bosses.
@Kalshane
6 PCs sounds like a lot to balance for. Are you using the encounter building guidelines in the DMG to adjust or going by feel?
@Laurefindel
Was there a particular combo to Monk/Warlock? I'd guess Darkness/Devil's Sight+Shadow Monk, but I imagine that'd be annoying to party members that don't see in magical darkness.
Were groups of enemies harder for lack of AoE spells in the party, or were the AoE spells inadequate at high levels?
The big thing for me is they can dish out a ridiculous amount of damage in a short amount of time (though PF is the same way.) I've been giving solo monsters and bosses (even if they have minions) max HPs plus the Tough feat and the party is still able to tear through them in about two rounds. The last session they killed an undead treant with 350hps in two rounds, with only the fighter taking any damage. (Of course, when you have a Light cleric, an alchemist and a barbarian with a flametongue greatsword, a creature with fire vulnerability doesn't stand much of a chance.)
Yeah, I found this too. Once the PCs got past 10th level I gave every monster maximum hit points as a matter of course. Solo creatures are really tough to make threatening (even with lair and legendary actions - it's just so hard to keep them alive if the party only have one target to pile on to).
The most fear I've put into them was at 12th level when an Adult White Dragon got the drop on them and breathed on the entire party in the surprise round (they ended up beating it handily once they got over their initial panic) and throwing a dozen Eldritch Knights with fireball spells at them at 13th level. (The latter probably would have resulted in a TPK had I had the EKs all Action Surge to get off two fireballs each in the first round. If I had to do that fight again I would have drastically reduced the number of foes, but had them fight smarter.)
It's down to judgement/aesthetics, but I don't think I'd allow someone to get past the "only one spell per round except for one action cantrips" limitation by using action surge. I don't really like the idea of a wizard boosting their spellcasting ability by dipping into fighter.
I began by using the encounter building rules in the DMG but quickly abandoned it as too easy. Granted my players build almost exclusively for combat - nonetheless, if it wasn't a deadly encounter they would generally get through with minimal resource use. Deadly encounters had negligible chance of really challenging them (barring dice rolls).
That was especially true for 2PCs - the adjustment to the "experience budget" was too generous, in my opinion.
@Laurefindel
Was there a particular combo to Monk/Warlock? I'd guess Darkness/Devil's Sight+Shadow Monk, but I imagine that'd be annoying to party members that don't see in magical darkness.Were groups of enemies harder for lack of AoE spells in the party, or were the AoE spells inadequate at high levels?
No, it was a fire-theme, Kung-fu wuxia elemental monk/pack of the fiend bladelock (refluffed as devotion to his ancestors). It would burn through its resources (ki points and warlock spell slots) in 4-5 rounds, but refresh it all on a short rest.
It was a three character party with a fighter/rogue (feint-sneak attack combo) and a diviner wizard, not very blasty but full of resources and buffs. We were heavy hitters but relatively low AC and average hit points at best. We worked best when concentrating our firepower on one opponent and make it a short combat.
Cheers. I didn't know that.
Our 5E conversion of RotRL just hit 12th level, but we're in Part 6, and might only get to level 13, if that, before we finish the AP.
We started at level 1 with 5 PCs (classic 4 + ranger), gained a 6th PC around level 8 or 9 (a barbarian), but the ranger is moving away. :-(
So we're down to 5 again.
A lot of the fights are really challenging, but no TPKs. My dwarf cleric died a couple times, but got rezzed each time.
One thing that is kind of frustrating is that some low-level spells are still very valuable at high levels, and require Concentration, so some of the new high level spells don't get used.
I think a feat that let you concentrate on a number of spells equal to half your proficiency bonus would be nice. Or a Spell Specialization feat so you can select 1 concentration spell and not need to concentrate on it.
And that spell would be bless. ;-)
I don't cast bless for every battle, but when I do, it usually goes better than if I had cast a different concentration spell, like bane, banishment, spiritual guardians, protection from energy, enhance ability, magic weapon, divine favor, shield of faith, protection from evil and good, bestow curse, blade barrier, etc.
And when I do cast a different concentration spell, it's almost like I'm debuffing my allies since they're not getting +1d4 on attacks and saves. And when your non-proficient saves NEVER increase, that +1d4 might be all they're adding to a d20 against DCs of 18 through 22!
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At our flgs, we have a pretty good 5e going on Thursdayds. A couple of groups have played through both the Tiamat and the elemental evil APs, which both go into the high teens.
The game seems fine there. The fighter did complain about a dead spot around level 9-14 though, where levelling didn't seem to give more than just more HP for him.
For solo encounters, the prodigious use of lairs and legendary abilities is highly recommended. The group mentioned above tore through a dragon in one surprise round at high levels. It wasn't the only critter in the battle, but should have been the biggest threat.
I guess the most important thing for was that high level, we weren't doing ridiculous maths like other games have you tracking.
Hey Wrath, I'm curious to your thoughts on Elemental Evil. My home group almost started that one (opted for Out of the Abyss instead).
What kind of fighter, Wrath? That 3rd attack at 11th level is pretty great, especially when combined with Action Surge (6 attacks for 1 round, more if 2-weapon fighting and/or hasted).
I know our Eldritch Knight has felt a little frustrated at levels 8-10, but he's been learning how to use all his class abilities, including defenses, a lot more effectively.
Also, every melee martial should carry some emergency javelins!
At least Eldritch Knights can have fire bolt! :-)
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He was a champion, two weapon fighter. Man he could lay the smack down, he just felt a little stifled in options using that path.
I think the eldrithc knight and the one that uses manoeuvres are different though.
As for Elemental Evil, it was great. However, there was a little bit of forced narrative at one stage I felt. Some of the guys you confront are meant to be initially thought of as just another NPC, but experienced players are going to see though that really fast. Our DMs redid some stuff in the background to make those more of a surprise than anything else. Apart from that, it's a great way to start playing. It was written with the rules complete and drops loot at a rate the game was meant to cater for. You end up with some very sweet gear by the end of the game, and it was a nice way to relive an old classic.
Yeah, the champion seems a little "dumbed down" or "overly simplified." Really great for an introductory game, or a one-shot, but I can see how it could get a little dull over an extended campaign.
But a half-orc Champion with a great axe would crit on 18-20 for 3d12, which is pretty crazy for 5E!
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He was a champion, two weapon fighter. Man he could lay the smack down, he just felt a little stifled in options using that path.
The Champion is powerful, but most of their abilities are very passive. This is great for new players or cohorts, but can be a little dull for experienced players.
If you have play experience at 10+, I'm interested to hear about how higher level PC abilities/monsters/spells have mixed at your table.
To date:
- I switched an Eberron campaign to 5E at 15th level;
- GMed Curse of the Crimson Throne converted to 5E, plus continued campaign to 20th;
- Played in Rise of the Runelords converted to 5E;
- GM'd up to midway through Book 5 of Council of Thieves converted to 5E (so far);
- Played in books 1-4 of Carrion Crown... converted to 5E
In my experience, the game changes quite substantially around level 5-6 as the low level power escalation hits it's peak comes to taper off throughout the remaining 15 levels - it's not that the PCs don't continue to gain in power, but they don't do it at quite the same rate as the first 5 levels.
All told, I found that in the various groups across the levels, the PCs managed to remain mostly balanced against one another (I say 'mostly' because high level warlocks hit a glass ceiling hard unless they multiclass), however, encounter and monster design seems to struggle a bit.
Most monsters are designed to be glass cannons - even the dragons - and unless there's something else to soak up damage or otherwise distract the PCs even the biggest and baddest monsters struggle to live more than a couple of rounds. By comparison, using a larger number of lower level monsters means the total hitpoint pool the PCs need to get through is usually dramatically higher for the same (or less) XP, because of how monster HP scaling works: Much like PC damage it rises extremely quickly, then slows down it's progression later.
Ultimately, I found myself eyeballing things a lot rather than using the published guidelines, and adjusting monster HP dramatically: Solos generally need double the published amount, whereas using a when using pack of lower level monsters I wound up halving their individual hitpoints to avoid it turning into a complete grindfest.
Of course, there is something to be said for having a party face a challenge at 20th level, and pretty much every character feeling powerful and able to contribute - it's something I'd found missing in 3.5/PF where experienced players with casters would routinely disable/dismantle encounters, leaving the martials to mop up.
For whatever reason, our entire party chose to have spellcasting, at least a little bit: cleric of Life & diviner wizard (duh), but also ranger, eldritch knight, arcane trickster, and even the barbarian has a few totem spells (not that I remember him using) them ever).
So even the "martials" (rogue, fighter, ranger) have spells and can contribute a lot out of combat.
Is this unusual?
We're doing a 5E conversion of RotRL, but once we're done, I'm putting on the DM hat and will be running a homebrew campaign. I know at least one player is going to be non-magical (UA swashbuckler rogue/battlemaster fighter), one might go monk/rogue assassin, one might go magical trickster-type (arcane trickster or bard or rogue/sorcerer or warlock or something) and one might go Oath of the Ancients paladin. The ranger is moving away, but might Skype as an evoker, and the current barbarian is going to play a non-barbarian (just to mix it up==he seems to really like the barbarian class).
So a lot less magical than our current campaign.
Hey Wrath, I'm curious to your thoughts on Elemental Evil. My home group almost started that one (opted for Out of the Abyss instead).
Well not Wrath, but I've been prepping this for a group over the last few months now and playing the Tiamat one run by another DM. Can't speak for Out of the Abyss, but I can compare those two at least.
The way EE is set up is a lot more sandbox-y than HotDQ was and quite a bit less linear. What I mean by that is there is basically a central hub set up called Red Larch(with a few cities that can also be visited in the area). After that it's mostly up to the player's to investigate. It's set up with a fair number of very much optional side quests and which cults they end up investigating is very much in the hands of the players. Personally that's a big plus for me as I prefer a more open world and it is making it quite easy to import into my own world.
There are notes and lists of repercussions from the cults when certain events happen (whenever they do) and there is (or can be) a bit of a time crunch as the longer you ignore them the nastier they get when you do face them.
One of the few complaints I've seen (and agree with) is they added all these really cool elemental spells in the book and none of the NPCs even make use of them. Something I intend to fix personally.
Overall can say I'm quite happy with it and excited to see the group dive in once it is ready.
I've played a bit of EE before the DM got too busy. It definitely is more sandboxy, but there's still a proper order to do things in (because of the challenge ratings of encounters in different areas), and our group ended up trying to clear a place beyond our weight class initially. There wasn't really a way to tell that until we got into combat either.
There was also another annoying aspect
I was nervous about how challenging encounters would be in 5th edition. I haven't played yet but I am starting a campaign this weekend. Its a small group of two 11th level characters, a Cleric and Ranger. These days I only get to play very small groups due to age, jobs, etc.
When you folks are saying you waded through these battles within a couple of rounds (or short amount of time anyway) and didn't feel challenged, how many characters were there?
How much of this was due to excellent player planning and preparation?
How experienced were the DMs?
I use Kobold Fight Club for planning encounters. Has worked really well thus far. Takes all the math/exp packet stuff out of it and just shows you easily what should be easy/challenging/deadly to the party and allows you to also adjust the number of players and so on.
Additionally, in response to Petty Alchemist's spoiler:
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Merry Christmas gamers!
Not much to add from the playing side to this discussion.
From a DM standpoint - high level 5E is so much nicer to run on the fly or improvise than 3.x/PF was! That just adds a whole other element of fun to the game, for me at least. Very much hearkens back to 1e, B/X in that respect.
Tweaking monsters to be challenging for higher level parties, especially solo monsters, gets easier as you get used to the system. A lot more happens in each round than I recall in any previous edition, so keep that in mind. Lair/legendary abilities that give the big bass more actions in a round are the best equalizers.
For example, if you want a lion to be a challenging solo monster for a party, simply give it the attacks and hit points for three lions, and let it attack and/or move on two or three initiative spots during the round.
I'm definitely looking forward to a DM break when we finish ROTRL in a couple of sessions. Not only because I'll get to play a character for a change, but it will give me time to design my own stuff for the continuing adventures of the high level heroes of sandpoint - which I've been dropping Easter eggs here and there may culminate at 20th level at the test of the Starstone in Absolom (we'll see hehe).
TheRavyn! Will we finally hear the history of that horse! I really want to play through levels 12 through 20, even if it is truncated to just doing 1 level per session for a short campaign after (or as a break from) my campaign.
AAAAANNNDDDD..... I think I finally have an idea on how to START the campaign! :-D